Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Posted: 12/27/2015 8:17:57 PM EDT
Ok guys. I own 2 SBR's as an individual. I'm looking to build a few more SBR's in the future. I now have a Son. After I die some day how would mine get transferred? On a Form 4? Say the government bans any transfer of NFA. Would I be better off setting up a trust now for future builds? Is there any way (without paying $400) to get my 2 I currently own into the trust?

Thank You
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 8:45:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2015 8:46:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2015 8:57:24 PM EDT by David14]
Originally Posted By armyof2:
Ok guys. I own 2 SBR's as an individual. I'm looking to build a few more SBR's in the future. I now have a Son. After I die some day how would mine get transferred? On a Form 4? Say the government bans any transfer of NFA. Would I be better off setting up a trust now for future builds? Is there any way (without paying $400) to get my 2 I currently own into the trust?

Thank You
View Quote

Trust for future items for sure, with your son as a member of the trust.

Form 5 (here) for the ones you have as an individual. Go ahead and fill these out & get the FBI blue ink fingerprint cards (FD-258) from ATF (here) or by calling (703) 870-7526 or (703) 870-7528.  Once your son's old enough to cooperate with getting printed, you can take him to get them completed so he'll have the necessary forms if something unforeseen should happen to you.
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 12:08:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigWaylon:
As long as he is your legal heir, they transfer tax-free on an ATF Form 5.
View Quote

And if I am not mistaken, this type of transfer does not require finger prints or LEO signoff.
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 1:24:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By armyof2:
Ok guys. I own 2 SBR's as an individual. I'm looking to build a few more SBR's in the future. I now have a Son. After I die some day how would mine get transferred? On a Form 4? Say the government bans any transfer of NFA. Would I be better off setting up a trust now for future builds? Is there any way (without paying $400) to get my 2 I currently own into the trust?

Thank You
View Quote


Trust will not get around a ban on transfers, you would need an LLC to that.

I would recommend adding each NFA item to your will as you acquire it, and filling out a Form 5 for it and keeping the F5 with your will.
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 1:26:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

And if I am not mistaken, this type of transfer does not require finger prints or LEO signoff.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:
Originally Posted By BigWaylon:
As long as he is your legal heir, they transfer tax-free on an ATF Form 5.

And if I am not mistaken, this type of transfer does not require finger prints or LEO signoff.



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbldSoif_JAhUK12MKHTFRCnIQFgggMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Ffile%2F97596%2Fdownload&usg=AFQjCNE49xEwQ693oOtKOM-BYdPFwkbH1w&sig2=i6PvHCmSt_sFGJzOJo1YYA
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 2:55:08 PM EDT
I would agree that if you want to try and beat some sort of future transfer ban the best option for long term success would be a Limited Liability Company or a true Corporation.

Most common/normal revocable trusts have a expiration date at which point a transfer of trust assets  is going to have to proceed.  Granted some states now allow for "perpetual" or "dynasty" trusts but are much  more complex , costly, and are of questionable long term legal validity.  (I personally don't see the overwhelmingly liberal courts long term allowing wealthy folks to stuff millions & billons of dollars away from generational taxation forever)

The handful of NFA Trusts I have seen are legally still traditional revocable Trusts with a finite end date based on the laws of the State of creation.  So while your son may be the beneficiary of the current NFA assets the trust may be forced to dissolve under the rules of perpetuity for your State before the death of the beneficiary at which point a taxed F4 (with CLEO) would be required.   If you want a trust for true estate planning vehicle for multi-generational purposes I would suggest definitely talking to an experienced attorney vs. a silencershop cookie cutter NFA Trust.

Nobody also knows how/when/if a 41P type rule would require a CLEO cert for existing items to the current Grantor (assuming the grantor is alive) or for existing beneficiaries to take physical posession.    While most folks assume that will never happen, I have not seen anything that says it absolutely cant either.   Granted this is still a risk for LLCs and Corps as well.

Many folks if faced with either getting a CLEO sig to legally take physical possession of a Trust asset,  forfeiture,  or a mountain of legal bills to fight it  would  most likely have to get a CLEO sig or  hand over the handful of used suppressors and slap a 16" barrel back on the AR15 their dad left to them in a Trust.
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 3:18:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbldSoif_JAhUK12MKHTFRCnIQFgggMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Ffile%2F97596%2Fdownload&usg=AFQjCNE49xEwQ693oOtKOM-BYdPFwkbH1w&sig2=i6PvHCmSt_sFGJzOJo1YYA
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:
Originally Posted By BigWaylon:
As long as he is your legal heir, they transfer tax-free on an ATF Form 5.

And if I am not mistaken, this type of transfer does not require finger prints or LEO signoff.



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbldSoif_JAhUK12MKHTFRCnIQFgggMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Ffile%2F97596%2Fdownload&usg=AFQjCNE49xEwQ693oOtKOM-BYdPFwkbH1w&sig2=i6PvHCmSt_sFGJzOJo1YYA

I got it half right.  Fingerprint cards are indeed required, but LEO signature is not.  https://www.atf.gov/file/58231/download
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 4:44:11 PM EDT
Prints are definitely required for F5 transfers.   (but no CLEO sig)

One thing to keep in mind about having pre-filled out Form 5s and print cards is the actual prints can not be rolled until just prior to  transfer being submitted.  I saw it was mentioned above to have the prints taken as soon as your son is old enough to sit through it.   Generally prints have to be taken within a year of the transfer being submitted to be valid.

I would highly doubt that the NFA branch would accept print cards that were rolled a decade+ back on somebody who was say 12 at the time.  The print cards also have demographic information on them such as height and weight which would not be correct anymore.    The ORI information has also changed over time as well.  I have tossed old print cards over the years as the ORI has changed such as when the NFA branch was in DC and moved to WV.   There has been at least one ORI change since they have been in WV as well.

The same issue exists with pre-filled Form 5.   The odds that a Form 5 filled out today will still be the valid/accepted Form-5  twenty+ years from now when you die is probably slim.

While certainly not a bad idea to have Form-5 filled out and blank print cards attached as a reference guide.    Unless you plan on dying in the next couple years you probably want to make sure you include instructions in your will to confirm that the attached pre-filled forms and print cards are still valid prior to the decendants submitting them to the NFA branch for transfer.
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 6:18:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2015 6:19:08 PM EDT by BigWaylon]
Link Posted: 12/28/2015 6:49:24 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigWaylon:

I'm torn between replying "no they don't" and "prove it". Prints don't change. ATF forms specifically say the photo and the CLEO sig have to be within the last year. Says nothing about a date for prints.

Doesn't really matter. Order the cards and roll your own whenever you feel like it.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigWaylon:
Originally Posted By jbntex:
One thing to keep in mind about having pre-filled out Form 5s and print cards is the actual prints can not be rolled until just prior to  transfer being submitted.  I saw it was mentioned above to have the prints taken as soon as your son is old enough to sit through it.   Generally prints have to be taken within a year of the transfer being submitted to be valid.

I'm torn between replying "no they don't" and "prove it". Prints don't change. ATF forms specifically say the photo and the CLEO sig have to be within the last year. Says nothing about a date for prints.

Doesn't really matter. Order the cards and roll your own whenever you feel like it.


Any reputable official place like a police station, department,  etc. is going to properly date the cards when they roll the prints.  Of course, your future heir could then roll the dice to see what happens if you submit 20 year old print cards, my money is on decade old print cards are going to be kicked back.

However, I would guess you could buy your own print set (ink, roller, pad, etc.) and if you are rolling prints in your own private home you could leave the area where date the prints were rolled as "blank" so that the heir can then dubiously forward date the print cards and they may get away with it.

That said I am pretty sure your prints and stats change as you grow so the heir would need to be an adult.   If the plan is to print your kid as soon as he can sit still enough to do it to file away with your will,  I think its going to be obvious that the child sized paw prints in boxes in the lower left and right corners are not an adult and are probably not going to be accepted.


Link Posted: 12/28/2015 10:55:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2015 2:04:00 AM EDT by cyborg543]
This is why I stick with individual ownership.

I don't understand these trusts
Link Posted: 12/29/2015 12:24:16 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbntex:

The same issue exists with pre-filled Form 5.   The odds that a Form 5 filled out today will still be the valid/accepted Form-5  twenty+ years from now when you die is probably slim.
View Quote


Hence why you would update it each year - no different than your will, 401K, etc.
Link Posted: 1/3/2016 9:20:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2016 9:23:30 PM EDT by TooTech]
The trust allows any trustee the possession of, as well as the use of, trust assets. My son is a both a trustee and the beneficiary of my trust.

As trustee he can have one of the trust's suppressors in his possession without me being present. This is important to me as he's all grown up and lives in another state that allows suppressor ownership.
Top Top