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Posted: 10/23/2016 2:10:55 PM EDT
Winchester versus Lake City 7.62x51. WMA brass is a bit cheaper, and I have a line on a pretty good deal. Lots of folks swear by LC as the standard to judge other mil brass by. Any reason to buy one over the other? Will be using in a bolt gun after prepping. Asked the googles but didn't find much.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 2:40:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Either would work, so I would go with the cheapest.

Just make sure you reduce the load by 2 grains.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 6:35:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Winchester makes WMA? How much does an empty unprimed WMA case weigh? Lake City averages around 179 grains empty and unprimed.

Widener's Reloading sells new IMI 7.62x51mm brass ($320.00 +/- per one thousand) and it's nearly identical to Lake City as far as load data is concerned. They also sell once fired G.I. surplus 7.62x51mm for much less.

Of course the once fired military is mixed G.I. head stamps and possibly fired from machine guns, so there's that. I like IMI because I'm getting new brass of known quality. If I load them five (5) times it works out to just over 6 cents per firing. Four (4) firings and it's only 8 cents per firing. Even using a M1-A they will last four firings.

Winchester commercial brass is may favorite as far as value is concerned. I feel they make the best brass in the USA and only Lapua is better overall. Some commercial Winchester .308 brass weighs as little as 155 grains empty and unprimed. Huge increase in internal capacity and the amount of powder they can safely handle compared to any military surplus case.


Link Posted: 10/23/2016 9:08:48 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
Winchester makes WMA? How much does an empty unprimed WMA case weigh? Lake City averages around 179 grains empty and unprimed.

Widener's Reloading sells new IMI 7.62x51mm brass ($320.00 +/- per one thousand) and it's nearly identical to Lake City as far as load data is concerned. They also sell once fired G.I. surplus 7.62x51mm for much less.

Of course the once fired military is mixed G.I. head stamps and possibly fired from machine guns, so there's that. I like IMI because I'm getting new brass of known quality. If I load them five (5) times it works out to just over 6 cents per firing. Four (4) firings and it's only 8 cents per firing. Even using a M1-A they will last four firings.

Winchester commercial brass is may favorite as far as value is concerned. I feel they make the best brass in the USA and only Lapua is better overall. Some commercial Winchester .308 brass weighs as little as 155 grains empty and unprimed. Huge increase in internal capacity and the amount of powder they can safely handle compared to any military surplus case.


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Not to derail or anything like that, but why would it matter if it has been fired out of a machine gun?  Does it work the brass more or something?
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 9:25:50 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


Not to derail or anything like that, but why would it matter if it has been fired out of a machine gun?  Does it work the brass more or something?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Winchester makes WMA? How much does an empty unprimed WMA case weigh? Lake City averages around 179 grains empty and unprimed.

Widener's Reloading sells new IMI 7.62x51mm brass ($320.00 +/- per one thousand) and it's nearly identical to Lake City as far as load data is concerned. They also sell once fired G.I. surplus 7.62x51mm for much less.

Of course the once fired military is mixed G.I. head stamps and possibly fired from machine guns, so there's that. I like IMI because I'm getting new brass of known quality. If I load them five (5) times it works out to just over 6 cents per firing. Four (4) firings and it's only 8 cents per firing. Even using a M1-A they will last four firings.

Winchester commercial brass is may favorite as far as value is concerned. I feel they make the best brass in the USA and only Lapua is better overall. Some commercial Winchester .308 brass weighs as little as 155 grains empty and unprimed. Huge increase in internal capacity and the amount of powder they can safely handle compared to any military surplus case.




Not to derail or anything like that, but why would it matter if it has been fired out of a machine gun?  Does it work the brass more or something?



Yes. Best use a small base die and plan on trimming some metal.

Some reports I've read indicate that the case life is reduced to three reloadings... I reload my LC 4 times with an X-die then toss. Could probably go longer if I annealed, but at $90/k who cares?
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 9:26:04 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:



Yes. Best use a small base die and plan on trimming some metal.

Some reports I've read indicate that the case life is reduced to three reloadings... I reload my LC 4 times with an X-die then toss. Could probably go longer if I annealed, but at $90/k who cares?
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View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Winchester makes WMA? How much does an empty unprimed WMA case weigh? Lake City averages around 179 grains empty and unprimed.

Widener's Reloading sells new IMI 7.62x51mm brass ($320.00 +/- per one thousand) and it's nearly identical to Lake City as far as load data is concerned. They also sell once fired G.I. surplus 7.62x51mm for much less.

Of course the once fired military is mixed G.I. head stamps and possibly fired from machine guns, so there's that. I like IMI because I'm getting new brass of known quality. If I load them five (5) times it works out to just over 6 cents per firing. Four (4) firings and it's only 8 cents per firing. Even using a M1-A they will last four firings.

Winchester commercial brass is may favorite as far as value is concerned. I feel they make the best brass in the USA and only Lapua is better overall. Some commercial Winchester .308 brass weighs as little as 155 grains empty and unprimed. Huge increase in internal capacity and the amount of powder they can safely handle compared to any military surplus case.




Not to derail or anything like that, but why would it matter if it has been fired out of a machine gun?  Does it work the brass more or something?



Yes. Best use a small base die and plan on trimming some metal.

Some reports I've read indicate that the case life is reduced to three reloadings... I reload my LC 4 times with an X-die then toss. Could probably go longer if I annealed, but at $90/k who cares?


That is something to think about. Just getting started out loading 308 for a bolt action precision rifle. Until I work up a couple of basic loads and refine my technique I am looking for an economical choice. Not sure what a small base die would get me for my application. Aren't they more beneficial for semi-auto? I got a Lee Deluxe 4 die set as a gift, starting from there. Input or opinions welcome. Maybe I'll buy some new brass for later. Thanks for the input.
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 9:36:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That is something to think about. Just getting started out loading 308 for a bolt action precision rifle. Until I work up a couple of basic loads and refine my technique I am looking for an economical choice. Maybe buy some new brass for later. Thanks for the input.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Winchester makes WMA? How much does an empty unprimed WMA case weigh? Lake City averages around 179 grains empty and unprimed.

Widener's Reloading sells new IMI 7.62x51mm brass ($320.00 +/- per one thousand) and it's nearly identical to Lake City as far as load data is concerned. They also sell once fired G.I. surplus 7.62x51mm for much less.

Of course the once fired military is mixed G.I. head stamps and possibly fired from machine guns, so there's that. I like IMI because I'm getting new brass of known quality. If I load them five (5) times it works out to just over 6 cents per firing. Four (4) firings and it's only 8 cents per firing. Even using a M1-A they will last four firings.

Winchester commercial brass is may favorite as far as value is concerned. I feel they make the best brass in the USA and only Lapua is better overall. Some commercial Winchester .308 brass weighs as little as 155 grains empty and unprimed. Huge increase in internal capacity and the amount of powder they can safely handle compared to any military surplus case.




Not to derail or anything like that, but why would it matter if it has been fired out of a machine gun?  Does it work the brass more or something?



Yes. Best use a small base die and plan on trimming some metal.

Some reports I've read indicate that the case life is reduced to three reloadings... I reload my LC 4 times with an X-die then toss. Could probably go longer if I annealed, but at $90/k who cares?


That is something to think about. Just getting started out loading 308 for a bolt action precision rifle. Until I work up a couple of basic loads and refine my technique I am looking for an economical choice. Maybe buy some new brass for later. Thanks for the input.


OP,
    If you are loading for a precision bolt rifle, consider getting some LC LR brass instead of LC or WRA BALL brass. LC LR brass was manufactured to have the same basic capacity of the BALL brass but held to much tighter tolerances. I weighed 100 LC M80 BALL cases and compared them to 100 LC LR cases. With the LC LR cases, there was only 1/3 the weight variation seen in the LC BALL brass. LC LR brass weight variation was on par with premium LAPUA brass. (2) added advantages of the LC LR brass over BALL brass. LC LR brass was not fired in an MG because M118LR ammunition is not approved for use in MGs & the primer pockets are not staked. Once you reach the point that you feel you can justify premium brass, look for some NORMA brass on sale for use in your precision bolt rifle. .02
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 11:49:56 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


OP,
    If you are loading for a precision bolt rifle, consider getting some LC LR brass instead of LC or WRA BALL brass. LC LR brass was manufactured to have the same basic capacity of the BALL brass but held to much tighter tolerances. I weighed 100 LC M80 BALL cases and compared them to 100 LC LR cases. With the LC LR cases, there was only 1/3 the weight variation seen the LC BALL brass. LC LR brass weight variation was on par with premium LAPUA brass. (2) added advantages of the LC LR brass over BALL brass. LC LR brass was not fired in an MG because M118LR ammunition is not approved for use in MGs & the primer pockets are not staked. Once you reach the point that you feel you can justify premium brass, look for some NORMA brass on sale for use in your precision bolt rifle. .02
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Winchester makes WMA? How much does an empty unprimed WMA case weigh? Lake City averages around 179 grains empty and unprimed.

Widener's Reloading sells new IMI 7.62x51mm brass ($320.00 +/- per one thousand) and it's nearly identical to Lake City as far as load data is concerned. They also sell once fired G.I. surplus 7.62x51mm for much less.

Of course the once fired military is mixed G.I. head stamps and possibly fired from machine guns, so there's that. I like IMI because I'm getting new brass of known quality. If I load them five (5) times it works out to just over 6 cents per firing. Four (4) firings and it's only 8 cents per firing. Even using a M1-A they will last four firings.

Winchester commercial brass is may favorite as far as value is concerned. I feel they make the best brass in the USA and only Lapua is better overall. Some commercial Winchester .308 brass weighs as little as 155 grains empty and unprimed. Huge increase in internal capacity and the amount of powder they can safely handle compared to any military surplus case.




Not to derail or anything like that, but why would it matter if it has been fired out of a machine gun?  Does it work the brass more or something?



Yes. Best use a small base die and plan on trimming some metal.

Some reports I've read indicate that the case life is reduced to three reloadings... I reload my LC 4 times with an X-die then toss. Could probably go longer if I annealed, but at $90/k who cares?


That is something to think about. Just getting started out loading 308 for a bolt action precision rifle. Until I work up a couple of basic loads and refine my technique I am looking for an economical choice. Maybe buy some new brass for later. Thanks for the input.


OP,
    If you are loading for a precision bolt rifle, consider getting some LC LR brass instead of LC or WRA BALL brass. LC LR brass was manufactured to have the same basic capacity of the BALL brass but held to much tighter tolerances. I weighed 100 LC M80 BALL cases and compared them to 100 LC LR cases. With the LC LR cases, there was only 1/3 the weight variation seen the LC BALL brass. LC LR brass weight variation was on par with premium LAPUA brass. (2) added advantages of the LC LR brass over BALL brass. LC LR brass was not fired in an MG because M118LR ammunition is not approved for use in MGs & the primer pockets are not staked. Once you reach the point that you feel you can justify premium brass, look for some NORMA brass on sale for use in your precision bolt rifle. .02


I had considered that option. I am planning on buying a stock of some kind of quality match brass for the future. The LR is hard to come by.
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 12:37:51 PM EDT
[#8]
I would skip the military surplus brass if it's going to be dedicated to a precision bolt action. Surplus brass will always be my first pick for a semi-auto but it really isn't as consistent as Lapua or Winchester.

It also severely limits velocity when compared to commercial brass. You can safely go 50 fps to 100 fps faster when running commercial brass. Federal brass is notorious for being soft, but it can usually be found once fired because so many agencies use it. 41.5 grain of IMR-4895 and a 168 grain SMK will shoot great from most bolt actions when using it. 42.0 to 42.5 grains of IMR-4064 also hammers with 168's in Federal brass.

Don't expect many reloads in Federal brass if you decide to hot it up.

Lapua is the best and it is almost always available. Expect to pay 70 cents for each case give or take. Winchester commercial is almost as good as Lapua and will perform admirably if you uniform the primer pockets, de-burr the flash hole and separate the resized and trimmed cases by weight.

Lake City cases almost always shows unacceptable run out because of uneven thickness in the case necks. They will perform just fine for practice and anything inside 300 yards, but if you actually plan to compete at 600 yards or further you will be disadvantaged.  If you just want a quantity of useful ammo for 90% of your shots the Lake City will work fine.

I use 40.5 grains of IMR-4064 under a 168 grain SMK when loading Lake City or IMI brass. It performs acceptably well from several rifles and exhibits no pressure signs. The NRA performed pressure tests using Lake City brass and my IMR-4064 load is 1.0 grain under their maximum load listed. YMMV.
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 12:41:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 2:45:30 PM EDT
[#10]
OP,
Just to make sure you understand: Virtually all LC M80 BALL ammunition leaving LCAAP is linked. So virtually all the once-fired LC BALL cases on the market went thru an MG with much looser headspace than even an M14 rifle much less a precision bolt rifle. If someone gave me some once-fired LC BALL cases, I would sell or trade them so as to start with better brass. I spend far too much time doing case prep to waste it on BALL brass even if it was unfired virgin LC brass.  Best of luck!
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 3:25:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would skip the military surplus brass if it's going to be dedicated to a precision bolt action. Surplus brass will always be my first pick for a semi-auto but it really isn't as consistent as Lapua or Winchester.

It also severely limits velocity when compared to commercial brass. You can safely go 50 fps to 100 fps faster when running commercial brass. Federal brass is notorious for being soft, but it can usually be found once fired because so many agencies use it. 41.5 grain of IMR-4895 and a 168 grain SMK will shoot great from most bolt actions when using it. 42.0 to 42.5 grains of IMR-4064 also hammers with 168's in Federal brass.

Don't expect many reloads in Federal brass if you decide to hot it up.

Lapua is the best and it is almost always available. Expect to pay 70 cents for each case give or take. Winchester commercial is almost as good as Lapua and will perform admirably if you uniform the primer pockets, de-burr the flash hole and separate the resized and trimmed cases by weight.

Lake City cases almost always shows unacceptable run out because of uneven thickness in the case necks. They will perform just fine for practice and anything inside 300 yards, but if you actually plan to compete at 600 yards or further you will be disadvantaged.  If you just want a quantity of useful ammo for 90% of your shots the Lake City will work fine.

I use 40.5 grains of IMR-4064 under a 168 grain SMK when loading Lake City or IMI brass. It performs acceptably well from several rifles and exhibits no pressure signs. The NRA performed pressure tests using Lake City brass and my IMR-4064 load is 1.0 grain under their maximum load listed. YMMV.
View Quote


Regarding the case volume, very true. I fit 50 gr of 2000MR in a black Hills match case and got 2700 fps out if a 16" SCAR 17. For a long barrel bolt action look into some match commercial brass and fire form it. The modern powders kick ass in that application!
Link Posted: 10/24/2016 5:20:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Some good points made. The rifle has a 25" 1:11.5 twist barrel and is unfired. I have some LC brass on hand I plan to use for breaking it in with some Hornady 150gn FMJBT. I am going to be using IMR4895, got 16# of it at a price I could not pass up along with 100 each 168 and 178 grain A Max bullets. Looks like I will buy some commercial brass, will look over the options and what is in stock before the election. Maybe I will save the machine gun brass for the 716 DMR if I can ever stop buying stuff long enough to get glass for it.The test target shows 0.34" at 100 meters with 168 Scenars. Update, just ordered 200 new Winchester brass.
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