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Posted: 12/21/2002 9:09:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2002 9:13:00 PM EST by Green_Furniture]
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 9:52:02 PM EST
I would have to say a .45.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 9:56:45 PM EST
Good wound balistics in the .45 aren't brand/weight/velocity sensitive like the 9mm. Ball ammo looted from Walmart will work resonably well.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 10:12:05 PM EST
9mm becouse of the huge glut of ammo that could be scavanaged.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 5:35:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 5:39:31 AM EST
SOD, the best thrash band ever IMHO
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:05:22 AM EST
Exactly what type of SHTF scenerio are we talking? Mad Max/Postman, UN bluehelmet JBT, race riot, aliens or zombies? If it's a Mad Max/UN JBT deal then I'd go for 9mm, easier to scrounge ammo. If just a "oh sh*t I need to grab my gun" then I'd go for .357mag.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 12:13:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 12:30:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2002 12:47:34 PM EST by Venerated]
It always amazes me when I hear civies profess the 9mm round as adequate. I was an LE in the AF and had to carry an M9. Believe me, the cartridge is junk. Simply stated, to equal the overall effectiveness of the .45 you need to run ++P rounds but by doing so you are doubling the operating pressure. Barrel life decreases rapidly.

If you choose not to believe me, the real world operators at this site (Marine Force Recon)www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm consider the 9mm round to be "anemic", that is, severly underpowered.

I think these guys know more about the subject than any of us and like them I'll stick with the .45
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 1:08:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 1:12:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 1:20:21 PM EST
10mm? 50AE?
ahh hell... 45 it is...

38? 38 What? or is that supposed to be yet another attempt at a joke...?

Jonathan
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 1:22:55 PM EST
Delta and Marine Recon use .45. The SEALs and the SAS and most of the Euro anti-terror units use 9mm. Most people use one of these as a justificatoin for thier pick, and miss the common factor - The OPERATOR of the weapon. Whatever caliber you get GOOD hits with is the best one. I carry a 1911 everyday. Occassionally, my SIG P226 or Browning MKIII go with me. I know I can shoot any of them reasonably well, so I just quit worrying about caliber. Its a handgun. Plan on it not stopping the threat.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 2:40:51 PM EST
I'll go for the 45. To quote my FBI neighbor once again , "The bigger the hole, the harder they squirt" & "A 9MM is merely a 45 set on stun ". And I'll pass another one on to all you 9MM fans.
I was working a service job at the US Customs Air Wing office in Mesa AZ. when I noticed one of the pilot's Eagle brand shoulder holster setup for his Glock 9MM. Asked him how he liked the Glock and said it was "Just OK. But the 9MM really sucks!" "Really," I replied? He said turn to your left 90 degrees and look at the locker door. There stuck in the sheet metal door of a locker is a 9MM bullet !!! "Had an AD did we?" They all laughed but wouldn't give up the guy who did it. The round was from a Glock 9 at a distance of 2 feet. It was a Federal Hydroshock +P and it couldn't penetrate a 16 gauge sheet metal locker door!!! It dented the sheet metal in 3/4 inch but couldn't make it all the way thru !!
I'll stick with a 45 thank you.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 2:58:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

Now, having said that, it IS certainly true that the best 45ACP loads outperform the best 9mm loads.

-Troy



Yep, and I like to think that my life is certainly worth utilizing the very best.

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 3:04:07 PM EST
A 1911 can have a spare barrel, spring and magazine can shoot 9mm. I am thinking of getting the parts for my 1991 conpact as a just in case.
If it was asurvival scenario and not a combat all the time, I would take a .357, for its versitility.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 3:09:00 PM EST
I would have to take the .357
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 3:13:13 PM EST
A Sig P228/P226 with h/c mags loaded with quality hollowpoint/hydroshock ammo. Pick a .45 if you like - they're nice - but try and find ammo. for it in a SHTF scenario. You might - maybe....Given a choice, I wouldn't go to ANY gunfight with a handgun - its better then suicide, but my handgun is primarily to back up my AR or FAL if they fail - or if I can't openly carry a rifle.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 4:14:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Green_Furniture:
I'm saying, consider that the S has HTF in your area. You've got unlimited rifle ammo and a few thousand rounds of pistol ammo and that's it. "No refils" from other troops or factions.

What would you pick?



Under the above criteria (unlimited rifle ammo and a few thousand rounds of pistol ammo), what in the hell do I have to worry about scrounging for?

I'll take the .45
Federal 230 grain Hydrashoks to be specific. The 9mm round doesn't come close.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 4:15:34 PM EST
357 sig. If you have a reloading press, its as cheap as 9mm and much more powerful.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 4:23:40 PM EST
No Not Again! Buy & Shoot Whatever you want, If you prefer .22 short thats fine by me!
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 4:52:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 5:46:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheWind:
A 1911 can have a spare barrel, spring and magazine can shoot 9mm. I am thinking of getting the parts for my 1991 conpact as a just in case.
If it was asurvival scenario and not a combat all the time, I would take a .357, for its versitility.



Not unless its originally chambered in 9mm or .38 Super. Different breach face, different extractor.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:12:29 PM EST
According to my Colt manual there is a kit for it. True might have to change the slide or at least the extractor.
There was a magazine article years ago about how many calibers the 1911 couldshoot, was over 30. THere was a couple of slides and lots of barrels.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:35:35 PM EST
I would grab the Glock 19, (9mm of course)but that would be my backup incase the AR fails for some reason.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:44:29 PM EST
I'd say I'd rather have a .45, but very few governments use .45 anymore. They've all gone to 9mm.
Against zombies, with unlimited ammo, I might pick a 9mm. Depends. Do I wanna pump those undead with 15 9mms or plug 'em with 3 .45s.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 7:35:46 PM EST

Given the choices, I'd take the .45.

...and why the hell would you choose a .40 Short & Weak?
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 8:18:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Valkyre:
I'd say I'd rather have a .45, but very few governments use .45 anymore. They've all gone to 9mm.
Against zombies, with unlimited ammo, I might pick a 9mm. Depends. Do I wanna pump those undead with 15 9mms or plug 'em with 3 .45s.



Since zombies require headshots anything accurate & with enuff power to penetrate the skull will do...
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 5:33:34 AM EST
.45

There can be only one.
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 9:10:18 AM EST
What would make a .40 short and weak?? Same velocity as a 9, bigger bullet. Make mine a .40 with Federal Hydra Shoks.
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 12:59:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By OldTiger:
What would make a .40 short and weak?? Same velocity as a 9, bigger bullet. Make mine a .40 with Federal Hydra Shoks.


Its a shorter and weaker version of the 10mm.

Short and Weak.

Jonathan
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 3:44:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By OldTiger:
What would make a .40 short and weak??




Because it's a downloaded 10mm.


With all due respect to 9mm fans why did the FBI dump the 9mm?Because in the famous Miami shootout 9mm's were bouncing off windshields and people that were hit 2 or 3 times weren't staying down.

I'm a big fan of the 10mm,with the 45acp a close second.If somebody was hit 2 or 3 times with a 10mm or 45 do you think they would get back up?
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 4:32:29 PM EST
I don't know nuthin' bout bullet performance but I sure can shoot my H&K USP Tactical 45ACP!!!

Winchester 230 grain JHP top of a heavy dose of VV-N350 powder...sure make the steel gong ring.
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 6:01:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 5:31:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 10:09:34 PM EST
.45, IF I can't have my .357 Sig.
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 8:46:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:
.45, IF I can't have my .357 Sig.





Took the words right out of my mouth!


Tim L.

Link Posted: 12/27/2002 2:46:08 AM EST
10mm is a great round, but try to buy a box of ammo in the boondocks. Same as for .357 Sig, although that is getting more popular.
I like to keep it to military calibers. .45 or 9mm would be big barter items in the event of SHTF or they ban ammo,
The test of a one gun battery is what ammo selection can you get at the local store?
Makes a .357 about the best all round, you can get it anywhere.
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 4:04:23 AM EST
Go with the .45.

Clint Smith says a 9mm is a .45 set for stun.

Link Posted: 12/27/2002 9:33:28 AM EST
An argument without end...
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 11:59:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2002 12:01:05 PM EST by Mach1]
I shoot my Beretta 9mm more quickly and accurately than my Ruger .45 - so that's I go with. The muzzle blast, recoil, and limited rounds of the .45 are a huge handicap.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 12:20:10 PM EST
I chose a .357 Magnum because you can also fire .38 Special. This gives the handgun greater flexibility in terms of ammo.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 2:15:43 PM EST
Evinrude or Mecury?
Ford or Chevy?

Oh thats right were going on about calibers....

Someone else said it..hit your target, two rounds, center of mass. The caliber is secondary.

Me and my Glock 23 (.40) can do that. And the .40 is a great round, Lots of 'em and a hard hit.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 2:22:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 2:22:44 PM EST by Scarecrow]

Originally Posted By cigardad:
Go with the .45.

Clint Smith says a 9mm is a .45 set for stun.




Then the 5.56 is 7.62 on stun.

Stupid comments.

The US military has no place to critisize the 9mm, these are the same people that complain targets are too far in Afghanistan to hit targets with their M4, but they are close eneugh to hit with a M9 pistol? Give me a break!

9mm has been around a long time, and in that time it has replaced almost every other service round used in any pistol by any military, while the 45 has just been a reoccuring event in the US military.

There are plenty of dead soldiers that could tell you about the lethality of a 9mm.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 2:33:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mach1:
I shoot my Beretta 9mm more quickly and accurately than my Ruger .45 - so that's I go with. The muzzle blast, recoil, and limited rounds of the .45 are a huge handicap.



No flame intended in this never ending debate, Talk about handicap, Think what a handicap the dead FBI agents families now have because their 9mm peashooters did not stop the attackers during the Miami shootout; And from what I read they hit the bad guys many times in the vital areas. The 9mm is not & will never be a reliable stopper, Mind you it will kill, But stopping an aggressive attack is not the same as killing, A .22 short will kill, It will not Stop an aggressor.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 3:37:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 3:40:02 PM EST by Cerebus]

Originally Posted By garr:
No flame intended in this never ending debate, Talk about handicap, Think what a handicap the dead FBI agents families now have because their 9mm peashooters did not stop the attackers during the Miami shootout; And from what I read they hit the bad guys many times in the vital areas. The 9mm is not & will never be a reliable stopper, Mind you it will kill, But stopping an aggressive attack is not the same as killing, A .22 short will kill, It will not Stop an aggressor.



There is NO WAY you can say the outcome of that shootout would have been any different if the agents had been carrying .45's. I'm sure if you talk to enough people who shoot at others in the line of duty (police, military, gov. agents, etc.) you will find stories of people taking several .45 slugs without going down ...as well as stories of people dropping from a single 9mm slug.

<edited for clarity>
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 4:12:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2002 4:13:46 PM EST by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By cigardad:
Go with the .45.

Clint Smith says a 9mm is a .45 set for stun.




He also says no one should take a handgun to a gunfight with any enthusiasm....
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:05:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cerebus:

Originally Posted By garr:
No flame intended in this never ending debate, Talk about handicap, Think what a handicap the dead FBI agents families now have because their 9mm peashooters did not stop the attackers during the Miami shootout; And from what I read they hit the bad guys many times in the vital areas. The 9mm is not & will never be a reliable stopper, Mind you it will kill, But stopping an aggressive attack is not the same as killing, A .22 short will kill, It will not Stop an aggressor.



There is NO WAY you can say the outcome of that shootout would have been any different if the agents had been carrying .45's. I'm sure if you talk to enough people who shoot at others in the line of duty (police, military, gov. agents, etc.) you will find stories of people taking several .45 slugs without going down ...as well as stories of people dropping from a single 9mm slug.

<edited for clarity>



You are right, Just speculation & opinions we are stating here!
I could be wrong But I remember after the shootout the FBI reissued .45s & .357s & pulled the 9mm from service! Until they could get the 10mm into service(A very very good round, But truly too much for some individuals & weapons to handle, But that's another story).
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 5:31:14 PM EST
Fourty Five A C Mother F*cking P!


you can risk your life with a plastic 9mm. I'll stick with a good old steel 1911.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 6:36:14 PM EST
SHTF: I want weapons chambered for NATO rounds. Want abundant resupply of ammo.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 3:05:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By GreyGhost:
With all due respect to 9mm fans why did the FBI dump the 9mm?Because in the famous Miami shootout 9mm's were bouncing off windshields and people that were hit 2 or 3 times weren't staying down.

I'm a big fan of the 10mm,with the 45acp a close second.If somebody was hit 2 or 3 times with a 10mm or 45 do you think they would get back up?



I'm really surprised that advocates of the "will stop a charging rhino 9mm" aren't flaming me over the above comment.It's been almost a week since I made that comment and I don't sense any indignation at all.

This isn't rocket science.Put a 9mm,10mm, and 45acp side by side.Visually look at them.Then look at the ballistics tables for each one.The answear is obvious "IF" you "Look" at ballistics,velocity,energy,bullet weight etc!!!
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