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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/12/2005 7:58:09 AM EDT
I found a thread in the Archive that said a vendor would offer the HK-416 to civilians IF HK made a semi-auto lower. Any update on that?

Also, I have seen the HK-416 High Reliability Magazines in stores and online, but what about other parts? - The sights and cold hammer forged barrels would interest me if they were available at reasonable prices (assuming the barrels are compatible with the direct gas system)
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:19:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Essayons:
Also, I have seen the HK-416 High Reliability Magazines in stores and online, but what about other parts? - The sights and cold hammer forged barrels would interest me if they were available at reasonable prices (assuming the barrels are compatible with the direct gas system)



Not gonna happen.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:58:42 PM EDT
The magazines are over priced, the barrels would not interchange, and the sights would be a definite upgrade over the AR irons (my opinion atleast) but would probably be to costly to be logical.

It'd be nice if HK would put that new factory to use making 416's for both agency and civilian use.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 5:09:45 PM EDT
Weren't the 416 parts made in Germany?

That means the lowers are a huge no-no for civilian import since they fall into the "nonsporting" receiver classification. The so-called barrel ban might catch you too, whenever it goes into effect (as the original start date for it has changed). That also means 922r applies when you start slapping parts together. I don't want to do the math, but it seems like you could probably go over your count pretty easily with an HK upper and HK mags.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:01:38 PM EDT
By my count, if mounting an HK416 upper to a domestic lower, there are only 6 imported parts.

Bbl, Bbl Extension, muzzle attachment, bolt, bolt carrier and gas piston. Using an HK mag adds three imported parts.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 8:06:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Findsman:
Weren't the 416 parts made in Germany?

That means the lowers are a huge no-no for civilian import since they fall into the "nonsporting" receiver classification. The so-called barrel ban might catch you too, whenever it goes into effect (as the original start date for it has changed). That also means 922r applies when you start slapping parts together. I don't want to do the math, but it seems like you could probably go over your count pretty easily with an HK upper and HK mags.



Does the HK lower use standard AR fire control parts?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:29:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jimtash9:
Does the HK lower use standard AR fire control parts?


The idea was to have a drop-on upgrade for standard M16/M4 rifles, so I would assume so. Unless they make that lower here in the US though, no one is getting it. Same reason you can't import AK style receivers (well, the double stack mag ones, at least). Ever see an Oberland Arms receiver here in the US? Yeah, same deal. Maybe that dealer from the original post was going to part out the complete rifles?


Originally Posted By racer934:
By my count, if mounting an HK416 upper to a domestic lower, there are only 6 imported parts.

Bbl, Bbl Extension, muzzle attachment, bolt, bolt carrier and gas piston. Using an HK mag adds three imported parts.


Handguards count too but it looks like you could still get away with it, since you'd be up to 7 + 3 with a mag, and 10 is in the clear. This assumes we are counting an AR gas piston upper correctly, which I am no expert in, so your legal mileage may vary. Just go with a L-W system, and there's no worries...

Ok, I'm done crapping on your thread.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 6:29:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Findsman:
Handguards count too but it looks like you could still get away with it, since you'd be up to 7 + 3 with a mag, and 10 is in the clear. This assumes we are counting an AR gas piston upper correctly, which I am no expert in, so your legal mileage may vary. Just go with a L-W system, and there's no worries...



Ahhhh, I forgot the handguards... Wonder if it could be replaced with a domestic ARMS/KAC/etc... Yes, I counted the piston as an import part. Since I am no expert on how 922(r) and AR-type rifles, I didn't count the Mounting Block, as the AR system doesn't have one(?). Nor, did I count the Op Rod as imported.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 6:55:41 AM EDT
I've seen the sights for sale over on HKPro.com. They were a little more expensive than domestic BUIS - I think it was $250-$270 for the set... Someone brought up the issue that the HK upper and forearm rail seem to be a little higher than USGI ones so there might be a problem putting them on anything but HK uppers - but that is pure speculation and based only on looking at pictures.

I'm not holding my breath for the HKs - I just don't think that HK is going to open a plant in the US unless there is a very big US Gov't contract. I don't think that they are going to be reasonably priced no matter where they are built. However, I hope they get built, that there is no US parts / imported barrel issues, and that they are somewhere in the $2000 range because that is all I would pay.

Spooky
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:57:12 AM EDT
Unless they have approved import permits for the barrels, its not going to happen anyway.

Only loophole would be NFA post samples, but prices are still going to be sky high.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:51:56 PM EDT
The HK416 uppers are going to be exempt from 922r and from any forthcoming "non-sporting receiver" changes in import regs. As it stands now, any firearms importer that has bonafide U.S. gov't or state contracts AND has a Type 7 FFL (license to manufacture firearms) is exempt from said import regs. They are NOT required to offer these parts only to LE or gov't entities, they can be sold to anyone once inside the U.S. and there will be no need to count parts. The HK416 are already here and for sale.

This exemption is how HK already imports FABARM shotguns in various and obviously unimportable configurations (magazine capacities that are greater than 5 rounds, collapsible stocks, etc) which are available to civilians. Also how Benelli is able to import the M1014 shotgun for civilian sale and why it is perfectly legal to add > 5 round capacity magazine extensions to M1 and M3 Super 90s, which would otherwise be unimportable. Benelli has plenty of military and LE contracts AND they carry a Type 7 license which qualifies them for this import exemption.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:08:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 5:09:24 PM EDT by FloridaConfederate]
Homeinvader although I am not from Missura

Show me, dont tell me.

Please.

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:00:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
The HK416 uppers are going to be exempt from 922r and from any forthcoming "non-sporting receiver" changes in import regs. As it stands now, any firearms importer that has bonafide U.S. gov't or state contracts AND has a Type 7 FFL (license to manufacture firearms) is exempt from said import regs. They are NOT required to offer these parts only to LE or gov't entities, they can be sold to anyone once inside the U.S. and there will be no need to count parts. The HK416 are already here and for sale.

This exemption is how HK already imports FABARM shotguns in various and obviously unimportable configurations (magazine capacities that are greater than 5 rounds, collapsible stocks, etc) which are available to civilians. Also how Benelli is able to import the M1014 shotgun for civilian sale and why it is perfectly legal to add > 5 round capacity magazine extensions to M1 and M3 Super 90s, which would otherwise be unimportable. Benelli has plenty of military and LE contracts AND they carry a Type 7 license which qualifies them for this import exemption.



Id like to see that one applied to a rifle and or parts. If that was the case, why hasnt HK been selling rifles all along?

The shotguns were effected by the AW ban, which expired..
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:27:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 7:46:29 AM EDT by bones21]
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:32:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:
Id like to see that one applied to a rifle and or parts. If that was the case, why hasnt HK been selling rifles all along?

The shotguns were effected by the AW ban, which expired..



This will apply to parts. You won't see a problem getting a new barrel for your USP or FABARM shotgun. But as far as rifles go, what does HK make that is importable into the US? They don't do a US compliant HK36 and they don't make the 90 series anymore. Even if they did resume production of the 90 series, they are still banned from importation by the '89 ban. While they may still make the USC and SL-8, they already tried that and they weren't embraced by the american market. Also, German laws have changed dramatically in the last few years and the German gov't is very difficult about issuing export permits for AW-type weapons, even if legal where they are going. Then there is the US side. From the perspective of foreign manufacturers who all got burned in '89, it proved how easily and quickly their pipeline can be shutdown. The '89 ban was not a long-awaited law that everyone knew was coming like the '94 AW ban. It was a veritable pen stroke (simplification) by the president and was not foreseen. US gun laws are notoriously volatile and they aren't going to spend millions setting up a long-term manufacturing presence for politically-touchy weapons only to have another Clinton-type administration elected and shut it down.

At least for HK, their US precence is handguns and FABARM shotguns, that's the most profitable/least risky market configuration. That's where they're comfortable. They set up the US plant partially to avoid the German laws and partially a cost savings issue (manufacturing in Germany is much more expensive). It was not motivated by specific US import regs, though it does strategically avoid vulnerability to more '89 type actions.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:55:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By Stottman:
Id like to see that one applied to a rifle and or parts. If that was the case, why hasnt HK been selling rifles all along?

The shotguns were effected by the AW ban, which expired..



This will apply to parts. You won't see a problem getting a new barrel for your USP or FABARM shotgun. But as far as rifles go, what does HK make that is importable into the US? They don't do a US compliant HK36 and they don't make the 90 series anymore. Even if they did resume production of the 90 series, they are still banned from importation by the '89 ban. While they may still make the USC and SL-8, they already tried that and they weren't embraced by the american market. Also, German laws have changed dramatically in the last few years and the German gov't is very difficult about issuing export permits for AW-type weapons, even if legal where they are going. Then there is the US side. From the perspective of foreign manufacturers who all got burned in '89, it proved how easily and quickly their pipeline can be shutdown. The '89 ban was not a long-awaited law that everyone knew was coming like the '94 AW ban. It was a veritable pen stroke (simplification) by the president and was not foreseen. US gun laws are notoriously volatile and they aren't going to spend millions setting up a long-term manufacturing presence for politically-touchy weapons only to have another Clinton-type administration elected and shut it down.

At least for HK, their US precence is handguns and FABARM shotguns, that's the most profitable/least risky market configuration. That's where they're comfortable. They set up the US plant partially to avoid the German laws and partially a cost savings issue (manufacturing in Germany is much more expensive). It was not motivated by specific US import regs, though it does strategically avoid vulnerability to more '89 type actions.



You are comparing two different things.. The barrel "ban" only bans the import of non sporting barrels. MGs, AWs, Surplus guns, etc. It does not effect pistols, shotguns, etc.

Also, Germany does allow the export of semi auto AWs to other nations. HK just doesnt make them. Several small companies in Gemany make HK91 and AR-15 clones, and sell them on the European civilian market..
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 9:33:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Also, Germany does allow the export of semi auto AWs to other nations. HK just doesnt make them. Several small companies in Gemany make HK91 and AR-15 clones, and sell them on the European civilian market..



Of course they allow it, but it is very difficult. As members of the EU, it's far easier to export to other EU countries than to the US. That's a partial reason for moving some of the US manufacturing operation to the US. If HK were to be awarded the XM8 contract, German export law would have gotten in the way of timely delivery in any numbers, or so they feared. Now that the DoD has opened up the XM8 program to open bids, HK has scaled back their US manufacturing plans anyway.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:44:04 AM EDT
Ok, maybe I am way off here... but you guys do know that HK still makes the USC and the SL8, right ?

They can still import them into the USA right ?

Do you also know that several months ago that HK started making BLACK SL8s for sale in Germany, and possibly other Euro countries
?

They could import the goods to the USA because they don't fall into "un-sporting" catagories... they just choose not to because they cannot risk the funds and the "criticism" by people in this country.

Ok, so to set the record straight here : HK can export semi-auto USC/UMPs, SL8/G36s & XM8s.... they just choose not to, plain and simple.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 9:20:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bones21:
Ok, maybe I am way off here... but you guys do know that HK still makes the USC and the SL8, right ?

They can still import them into the USA right ?

Do you also know that several months ago that HK started making BLACK SL8s for sale in Germany, and possibly other Euro countries
?

They could import the goods to the USA because they don't fall into "un-sporting" catagories... they just choose not to because they cannot risk the funds and the "criticism" by people in this country.

Ok, so to set the record straight here : HK can export semi-auto USC/UMPs, SL8/G36s & XM8s.... they just choose not to, plain and simple.



Wrong. HK cannot.. Why do you think they had to develop a special single stack SL8 just for the American market? Do you think that they spent the extras thousands of dollars on tooling just because?
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 9:22:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Also, Germany does allow the export of semi auto AWs to other nations. HK just doesnt make them. Several small companies in Gemany make HK91 and AR-15 clones, and sell them on the European civilian market..



Of course they allow it, but it is very difficult. As members of the EU, it's far easier to export to other EU countries than to the US. That's a partial reason for moving some of the US manufacturing operation to the US. If HK were to be awarded the XM8 contract, German export law would have gotten in the way of timely delivery in any numbers, or so they feared. Now that the DoD has opened up the XM8 program to open bids, HK has scaled back their US manufacturing plans anyway.



Switzerland still requires the same export paperwork as the US, and they sell them there...

If the XM8 had been bought, US Govt law would have required them to build it in the US. WHy do you think Beretta and FN have US factories?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:24:55 AM EDT
Tag - This is one of the most interesting threads on ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:10:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 8:10:51 PM EDT by James00]
"If the XM8 had been bought, US Govt law would have required them to build it in the US. WHy do you think Beretta and FN have US factories?"

FN is a perfect example, look at the PS90 and P2000. These would be otherwise importable, but since they are made in the US they are legal assault weapons. I emailed H&K regarding this and just got no where with someone who knew nothing. I don't understand why H&K doesn't see the potential that FN saw. Well I guess its a P2000 for me instead of a G36 (which I would MUCH rather have)
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:29:45 AM EDT
Someone has uppers listed for sale on Subguns

HK 416 uppers

I think $2300 is a bit expensive. Just passing on the news.
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