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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 5/19/2002 4:45:35 PM EST
I was wondering what the militarys specific purpose of using shotguns, it seems like most of the time the enemy would be out of the effective range of a scattergun, and what kind of ammo do they use?
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 4:50:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/19/2002 4:55:25 PM EST by Graffiti]
In vietnam, shotgun was useful. In a jungle combat situation, where you don't/can't take long range shot, shotgun would be advantageous. Its suited for perimeter defense where enemy is up close and it might be advantageous if you gotta do hut(house) clearing in urban setting or village.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 4:52:57 PM EST
MP's also used them all the time for POW's. In built up urban fighting, it would seem to be quite handy too.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 5:15:33 PM EST
They're used for killing people Seriously, the Army uses them as contingency weapons. If you're going to a situation that may be compatible with a shotgun, they'll issue some out. Combat takes place many times pretty close in. Closer than most will admit. While they may not be a great thing for the desert, a couple can be useful in most other types of places. I've seen footage of Ragners using them to blow off the hinges of a door, similar to what SAS, etc use them for. That one was a Rem 870 with a folding stock and a REAL short barrel, so it was a pretty compact pakage. I guess he used it for a "master key" mostly as he had his M4 slung as well.

Ross
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 6:40:29 PM EST
in trench warfare, soliders with shotguns were executed if captured becasue of the mess they made out of people. or so says the history channel.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 6:46:39 PM EST
the Navy uses them aboard ship, less chance of a ricochet.

Link Posted: 5/19/2002 7:12:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By thedave1164:
the Navy uses them aboard ship, less chance of a ricochet.




Same with the Coast Guard.

Jamie
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 8:23:34 PM EST
Military purpose for shotguns? There isn't any. Haven't you read U.S. vs. Miller(1939)? From the Supreme Court, "it is not within judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length is any part of the ordinary military equipment..."z
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 8:30:40 PM EST
Mossberg makes a sweet stainless 12 for marine use, as well as the same gun adapted as a line launcher.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 8:31:03 PM EST
key words "ordinary military equipment" one thing that pleasedme about the Corps. we're all about boonie covers and shotguns. i carry a shotgun whenever i have the option. theres plenty of rifles around. and most of the time when in a vehicle theres more than enough rifle firepower onboard.
Link Posted: 5/19/2002 10:29:59 PM EST
Shotguns were used to great effect in Vietnam. The close in fighting in jungles really allowed the shotgun to shine. I read a Green Beret's account of using a shotgun in a firefight. He said that when the VC were hit by 00 buck, they knew they were hit! They are also useful in certain urban situations, room clearing, etc....just look at a SWAT team. Even they always have some guy with a shotgun. The military uses standard power 2.75 inch 00 and #4 buckshot as well as slugs. The loads used to be Winchester but I'm not sure who makes the rounds now. Since Federal is loading the current 5.56 mm at Lake City, they may now have the contract.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:35:59 AM EST
At the Air Guard base I patrol there's talk now of issuing the shotguns for the officers down on the flight line because there isn't near the chance of ricochet/penetration in to the aircraft. The shotguns in the armory are old and beautiful, can't wait to finally rack the slide out at the qualifying range!
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 10:47:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By zoom:
Military purpose for shotguns? There isn't any. Haven't you read U.S. vs. Miller(1939)? From the Supreme Court, "it is not within judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length is any part of the ordinary military equipment..."z



Well MPs use them. A guy I grew up & and graduated with was a MP in the CTARNG (his unit locked their weapons up in our unit's vault). During Desert Storm the unit ran a POW camp. During a riot in this camp he had to shoot one of the POWs with one of the before mentioned shotguns.

Yeah they are still used - but in a very limited role.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 8:53:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/21/2002 9:07:25 AM EST by DvlDog]
a buddy of mine back in MD is an SP at the air guard base in essex. theve been clamoring for shotguns for years but havent recieved them. its a lot different in the Corps. if you took the class and have a hand reciept, you can get it from the armory. at least thats been my experience.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 10:44:19 PM EST
I was waiting for my electronics school to start at 29 Palms in September of 1990 when a bunch of us got sent to the range for a fam fire of the Remington 870. We used them to guard a load of ammunition and grenades we escorted to Norton AFB to fly over to the 7th Marines in the big sandbox.

Also, once Desert Storm started, the base went to Threatcon Charlie and we were walking firewatch with the 870s, five in the tube and an empty chamber.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:24:38 PM EST
Lets not forget Shotguns in Embassy Duty.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 7:32:19 AM EST
I recall reading somewhere that shotguns had been banned for anti-personell use by the Geneva convention. They were authorized for limited deployment, one per company, as a fouling piece.

Link Posted: 5/21/2002 8:12:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
I recall reading somewhere that shotguns had been banned for anti-personell use by the Geneva convention. They were authorized for limited deployment, one per company, as a fouling piece.




Thats a negative. And even if there would have been something like that, it would have been in one of the Hague conventions, which covered land warfare.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 10:06:40 AM EST
One of the guys I hunt with is a two tour Marine Vietnam vet. He was one of those that didn't trust the "black plastic toy" and insisted on a shotgun when they took his M14 away. He carried an Ithaca and loved it so much he bought one for personal use as soon as he was discharged, and still has it and uses it to this day.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 1:25:51 PM EST
My Dad tells of how he used a Winchester model 12s in basic air gunnery school when he joined up during WWII. I think he called it "compound skeet" because the gunners-2-B would ride along on the back of an open truck and shoot clay birds released from a trap that was mounted on a track that traversed an orbit around the linear path of the moving truck. He said after lots of practice he got good at it. He ended up with the 15thAF as a Tailgunner on B-24s in North Africa and later Italy. His last mission ended when the crew was forced to bail out of a crippled Liberator that the pilot knew would not make it home. They hit the ground "close" to friendly lines and were escorted back by Romanian resistance fighters. He still loves the model 12 and the Liberator.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 7:58:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
I recall reading somewhere that shotguns had been banned for anti-personell use by the Geneva convention. They were authorized for limited deployment, one per company, as a fouling piece.




Answered my own question. From one of my military contacts in DC:

The US position since WWI has been that it is a permissable weapon under the Hauge Convention, but most other countries say no. Ammo is restricted to 00 and slug, but not hollow-point slug, since that is considered a dum-dum bullet.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 8:31:04 AM EST
In my 4 years in the Corps i only saw the shotgun used in a couple roles.

1. Marine Embassey Security used REm 870's.

2. deployed MP units used Mossburgs where guarding POWs.

Ammo was always 00Bk
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:35:05 PM EST
I was issued a Rem 870 for pulling guard at the Ammo Dump. They didnt want to set off a chain reaction.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:40:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Makarov:
My Dad tells of how he used a Winchester model 12s in basic air gunnery school when he joined up during WWII. I think he called it "compound skeet" because the gunners-2-B would ride along on the back of an open truck and shoot clay birds released from a trap that was mounted on a track that traversed an orbit around the linear path of the moving truck. He said after lots of practice he got good at it. He ended up with the 15thAF as a Tailgunner on B-24s in North Africa and later Italy. His last mission ended when the crew was forced to bail out of a crippled Liberator that the pilot knew would not make it home. They hit the ground "close" to friendly lines and were escorted back by Romanian resistance fighters. He still loves the model 12 and the Liberator.




I've got one of these model 12s. 30 inch barrel with all military markings and matching numbers.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 9:12:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/23/2002 9:15:59 PM EST by Colt-653]
Rem. 870 14.5", 18.5", and 20" with bead or rifle sights (USA, USN, USMC) 5-8 shot parked and blued

Ithaca M&P 37 (USA, USAF, USN) 16.5", 18.5" and 20" bead and rifled sights 5 and 8 shot

Winchester Model 1200 (USA and USAF) 18.5" bbl parked 6 shot

Mossberg 500 (USMC & USAF) & 590 (USMC/USN) 6-9 shot

These are the most commom types you'll see. Older guns include various Stevens Models (520, 620, 66, 77 etc...) as well as Older Winchester and Rem Pumps and Autos.

Standard is supposed to be the Mossberg 590 and Rem. 870 but older shotguns are still in inventory. New Benelli M4 is supposed to replace them all but I doubt it.(Were still using A1's)

Only Mil loads I've seen are Fed. or Win. 00 and #4 high brass plastic 2.75". Flechettes were played with during Vietnam but were XM muntions and were all experimental. I've never seen slugs. Doesn't mean there in the system, just haven't seen them.

As most have stated they are limited issue weapons usually for MP/SP or POW details.
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