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Posted: 6/12/2009 12:04:15 AM EST
We have all been hearing how US gun dealers are cheerfully supply the drug dealers in Mexico with firearms.
I, for one, don't feel the situation is near as prevelant as some people would like US and Mexican citizens to believe it is, at least not in the manner they are alluding to.
1. US dealers are supplying Mexican drug gangs with FN produced P90 and 5.7mm handguns which they favor because they can penetrate bulletproof vests.
We all know vest defeating ammunition is illegal to possess by average citizens and near impossible to acquire for LE purposes, even legal 5.7mm ammunition is difficult to find right now.
However, I present exhibits A & B


These are Mexican troops on parade, of what department or division, I know not.
What is interesting is the weapons they possess, a supressed P90 carbine and two holstered FN 5.7mm handguns, interesting.
Now this is not in any way an attempt to insult the excellent work of the dedicated, hard working, and honest men and women in law enforcement and the military in Mexico, but you might know where this is going,,,
You might want to get your own house in order before you go sticking your finger at me and my fellow citizens and making blanket accusations.
Now I know U.S. civilian legal semi auto PS90 carbines have also been seized, however,,,,,,
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:13:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 12:35:01 AM EST by Milo5]
That leads to another area,
US gun dealers are selling M16 rifles to the drug gangs.
1. M16 full auto rifles are difficult and extremely expensive to obtain in this country, there just aren't that many available for sale.
Semi-Auto AR15 rifles and carbines are easy to obtain here.
Of course semi auto AR15 carbines and rifles are also readily available to Mexican Police Forces.
Bushmaster Firearms recently completed an order of 4000 or more for the Mexican northern states Police Forces, the exact departments I do not know.
Is it ironic or chance that a large number of seized semi auto AR15 carbines are Bushmaster produced?
Exhibit C shows a selection from a seizure of 400 weapons.
The AR15 carbines bear uncanny resemblence to the type of carbine Bushmaster produced for the Police order.
Again this is not an accusation against Bushmaster Firearms, they have no control over a weapon or the weapons final destiny once it leaves their factory.
It also means those PS90 carbines may have been ordered by a Mexican Security Force and then,,"dispersed accordingly".

Again I request that honest law enforcement gets the house in order before shoving accusing fingers at US citizens.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:19:20 AM EST
We have very little of this kind of stuff here, what is available is jealously hoarded and expensive as a Mercedes when it does come on the market.
The restrictions are enormous, more than the average citizen wishes to deal with.
However, this equiptment looks a whole lot like the material we provided to your southern neighbors during their time of fight against communism.
The fight didn't go to well, so much for tearing down the wall and that stuff is still there, or at least,,it was.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:27:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 12:31:27 AM EST by Milo5]
Do weapons get into Mexico from the US?

They most certainly do! Even I am not so naive to think they do not.
There has always been a cross border trade in firearms, mainly rifles and shotguns used for sporting purposes and difficult in some locals to obtain legally.
Ammunition, certainly, the stuff is, well you folks that live down there now what expensive really means!
Large lots of foreign made military type ammunition, well,,,,,anybody with an import license and knowledge of shipping can bring that stuff in direct, cheap too if you aren't paying import fees, again, get your house in order before you accuse US citizens of being the only bad guys.
By the way, those are some beautiful handguns, no, not the desert beagles either.
You won't find that level of high quality work here in the US without a huge payment for the services and unfortunately, records of the work are kept by the engravers and finishing companies, so I am doubting it was done here.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 5:27:53 AM EST
I have heard more reports from the Obama team that we (US citizens) are supplying guns to the Mexicans than the Mexican media and government blaiming us for all the weapons. I just think this is more political hogwash to push an already very liberal agenda.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 6:52:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 7:07:45 AM EST by m4whore]
Delete
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 6:55:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 7:08:08 AM EST by m4whore]
Originally Posted By Milo5:
You won't find that level of high quality work here in the US without a huge payment for the services and unfortunately, records of the work are kept by the engravers and finishing companies, so I am doubting it was done here.


You can buy those off the shelf here in the US.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 10:41:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 10:44:07 AM EST by Milo5]
Originally Posted By m4whore:
Originally Posted By Milo5:
You won't find that level of high quality work here in the US without a huge payment for the services and unfortunately, records of the work are kept by the engravers and finishing companies, so I am doubting it was done here.


You can buy those off the shelf here in the US.


Engraved gold plated Beretta 92F pistols do not come off the shelf here and that ain't no 'El Presidente' Colt .38 super either.
I can probably come up with some even spiffier examples if you guys are interested.
How about those 37mm gas guns, I don't know of any shops that have those stacked five deep waiting for citizen buyers, do you?
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:26:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Milo5:
Originally Posted By m4whore:
Originally Posted By Milo5:
You won't find that level of high quality work here in the US without a huge payment for the services and unfortunately, records of the work are kept by the engravers and finishing companies, so I am doubting it was done here.


You can buy those off the shelf here in the US.


Engraved gold plated Beretta 92F pistols do not come off the shelf here and that ain't no 'El Presidente' Colt .38 super either.
I can probably come up with some even spiffier examples if you guys are interested.
How about those 37mm gas guns, I don't know of any shops that have those stacked five deep waiting for citizen buyers, do you?


Ya but those are Berettas they are Taurus's and are off the shelf. m4whore
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 1:56:19 PM EST
If all those guns are coming from the US then prove it. Trace the numbers to see where they were made and where they were shipped such as...Mexican police/military or US gun stores. I read this somewhere else and it made me think. I don't recall where I read it and take no credit for it....BUTT.......If the Mexican drug cartels have millions if not billions in their "checking accounts"....then why would they be buying firearms at gun stores in the US when they could just get them from several different arm dealers from all over the world that have no issues selling large bulk shipments to them. Or just buy them straight from gun makers in several different countys that have licenses to make AR15 and such. I have not seen any evidence besides pictures of reportedly recovered guns made in the US laying on the floor with anit gun people standing over them.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:15:26 PM EST
Ok, just for the sake of arguement, because I didn't imply the handguns did not come from US sources, I implyed that some of them were gussied up in Mexico.
Just for the sake of arguement, where are those 37mm gas guns coming from, joe's arizona house of guns?
Now I know from a thread on another website that there are individuals that sell stuff and don't log doodily squat, but SOMEBODY is going to notice 100 Identical AR15 rifles coming out of one dealer shop and suddenly turning up in Mexico.
I am also aware some arrests and closures of southwestern shops have taken place.
I know cross border gunrunning is going on, I also know it isn't as prevelant as the Governments of both Mexico and the USA plus the media wants people on both sides of the border to believe.
The major players in this game are corrupt internal agencies and business agents working inside Mexico.
The point is US Citizens should not be guilt tripped into believing they are the root cause of all of Mexico's problems.
We should all know better.
And don't sound off with , 'if Americans weren't demanding and using the drugs then Mexico wouldn't have these issues, poppycock!
If Americans weren't using the drugs then another source would be found, where there is a buyer, there is a seller.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 4:01:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 4:05:40 PM EST by SilentType]
Fox News Report

FACT:

The Mexican Attorney General has stated that they had recovered 29,000 firearms from Mexican crime scenes in 2007 and 2008.

Only 11,000 were submitted for E-Trace.

6,000 were actually able to be traced.

ONLY 5,000 were traced to the United States.

That means of the firearms recovered from Mexican crime scenes in 2007 and 2008 only 17% came from the United States. NOT 90% as the liberals and liberal media have been claiming again and again with their bullshit number.


The OP points out that a great number of those firearms may have been obtained through legal means and then walked out the back doors of Mexican government buildings.

Regardless though it doesn't matter whether it's 17% or a 100%. We have no jurisdiction in Mexico. To pretend that we can have an impact on Mexican crime by passing more restrictions on civilians and the firearms industry here in the U.S. is absurd. Such thinking demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the Drug Cartels current resources and the global market for illegal goods that they are firmly established as a part of right now. Where the Drug Cartels have a demand someone that they deal with frequently will supply that demand.

When people think about Mexico they think about marijuana, but the fact is that the Mexican/U.S. border is also the chief point of entry for the majority of heroin and cocaine into the United States. Facts tell us that the majority of heroin is produced right now in Afghanistan and the rest of Asia where small arms are found in abundance. Facts tell us that the majority of cocaine is made in Central and South America, which were small arms dumping grounds throughout the Cold War that lasted about 44 years.

No, you simply can't remove firearms from the hands of members of the Drug Cartels through U.S. restrictions anymore than the Mexicans were able to do so through their own restrictions. What we should be doing is encouraging Mexico to provide law abiding citizens with the right to keep and bear arms. Throughout history if one thing has been made clear it is that arming the "good guys" is always the first step to defeating the "bad guys." The more law abiding citizens with the ability to defend themselves the greater the risk to thugs that attempt to impose their will on them. Let's urge Mexico to return the right to keep and bear arms to the masses, because although individuals can be bribed it is much more difficult to bribe an entire nation.

The right to keep and bear arms it he hallmark of any real civilized Democracy.

The added benefit is not only would Mexico take a real step toward returning power to the hands of the people rather than the corrupt or the criminals that own them, but it would give U.S. companies where some of the few manufacturing jobs remain a new market. Such a move would reduce crime in Mexico, reduce drug crimes in the United States of America, and provide thousands of people with high paying quality jobs. Those new jobs would create more taxable income and that would mean more revenue for the Federal Government as well.



Link Posted: 6/12/2009 6:14:37 PM EST
There have been credible pictures showing weapons seizures consisting of large stacks of FN rifles, both the FS2000 and PS90 (and you can clearly tell, because they're labeled on the side of the freaking box). Those are not weapons available on the civilian market in Mexico, nor are they really available on any civilian market outside of the US.

The evidence is there that there IS a decent amount of stuff being taken south of the border. Which is natural. Undoubtedly a much larger percent comes from Mexico's southern borders, but trying to deny that the United States is a major source is disingenuous.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 7:41:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 7:48:08 PM EST by Milo5]
Then what you are saying is that more restrictions on private sales and more regulation is needed to protect Mexico from the U.S, correct?
You know Canada has waded into this now and is starting to insist the US is the major culprit in their crime issues too and our Government should do something to stop the crime in Canada that is caused by guns illegally flowing north.

I'm being disingenuous and you bought the merry guilt trip hook line and sinker.

US firearms don't cause Mexican crime any more than US firearms cause Canadian crime.
Mexican and Canadian CRIMINALS cause Mexican and Canadian crime.
Get it??
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:17:35 PM EST
I will start caring about what goes south when the Mexican government starts caring about what is coming north. 5,000 guns can be traced back to the US? How many times that number of people have come north through the same border? How many tons of illegal drugs have come north? Perhaps a real barrier of some type on the border would be best for both countries.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 9:00:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 9:01:06 PM EST by Milo5]
Originally Posted By Stumps:
I will start caring about what goes south when the Mexican government starts caring about what is coming north. 5,000 guns can be traced back to the US? How many times that number of people have come north through the same border? How many tons of illegal drugs have come north? Perhaps a real barrier of some type on the border would be best for both countries.


Well said.
I am getting sick and tired of Americans being made the bad guys in all the worlds problems.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 9:05:51 PM EST
Gee wiz....you saw pictures of stacked boxes of seized FN guns.....would those be the same ones sold to the Mexican Gov. that they then sold to the bad guys??????? I mean...hey ...if they can be given the keys to the jails so they can go get their buddys with nobody even trying to stop them then why not sell them or let them steal all those nice new guns from Mexican army and police armories???? I have more I could add but just got me an email from the local gunshop. My RPG's and hand gernades came in and need to go get them before they ship them down to Mexico.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 8:03:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 8:09:15 AM EST by 951bulldog]
As others have pointed out, the 90% number is bullshit. Anyway, if Mexico wants to tstop guns coming into their countyr from the US, I have an idea. How about putting somebody at the border to check people and cars coming into Mexico? When you drive or walk form San Diego into Tijuana, it is easier than going into a baseball game at Angel or Dodger stadiums. When you go into those places they at least check your bags to make sure you don;t have anything in there you shouldn't. When you drive into Mexico it is essentially just a big ass stop sign. You stop, then you go. That's it. When you walk in, sometimes there is a guy sitting on a stool, but he is usually asleep or reading the paper. You could wheel a nuclear bomb past him and 90% of the time he wouldn't even look up.

So, my point is, instead of bitching at us to further restrict our rights, why don;t they even install the most basic of measues? Mexicans are so big on their "rights" when they are in the US, why don;t they respect the rights of Americans?

ETA: This is not even mentioning the rampant corruption in Mexico. It is so bad their police forces are nothing more than a joke. Not to mention the nudreds or thousand of soldiers who desert the military every year to work for the cartels. Rememeber about 5 years ago when the Tijuana cops had all of their guns taken away so they could ALL be tested to see how many matched up to cartel hits? They were issued slingshots though. Mexico is a joke. It is just another corrupt, 3rd world dump, where there are a few very rich people who ened up controlling everything. In this case, they are working w/ the cartels to enrich both sides. Nothing new.

Cops issued slingshots
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 11:11:25 AM EST
........Mexico is a joke. It is just another corrupt, 3rd world dump, where there are a few very rich people who ened up controlling everything. In this case, they are working w/ the cartels to enrich both sides. Nothing new.


Sounds more like the US every day.

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 11:49:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 11:55:59 AM EST by SilentType]
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
There have been credible pictures showing weapons seizures consisting of large stacks of FN rifles, both the FS2000 and PS90 (and you can clearly tell, because they're labeled on the side of the freaking box). Those are not weapons available on the civilian market in Mexico, nor are they really available on any civilian market outside of the US.

The evidence is there that there IS a decent amount of stuff being taken south of the border. Which is natural. Undoubtedly a much larger percent comes from Mexico's southern borders, but trying to deny that the United States is a major source is disingenuous.


I would not define "a major source" as 17% of firearms seized in Mexico.

Pretending that less than a quarter of the firearms seized in an entire nation represents a "major source" of firearms is disingenuous. What it suggest is an attempt to use visual rhetoric in the form of a few photographs of a few firearms to suggest that the United States private market is a "major source" of firearms used in criminal acts in Mexico in order to justify further restrictions in the United States of America. I would forward that those who support such attempts to persuade the American people with phrases like "major source" and misleading photographs are a FAR greater danger to the U.S. Constitution than any acts carried out by Drug Cartels in a foreign country.

Your type of rhetoric presents a clear and present danger to the individual liberties of American citizens. It provides an excuse, but not a justification to those in the Congress looking to transform the U.S. from constitutional rule of law to a simple majority tyranny in order to diminish and make irrelevant an amendment contained within the Bill of Rights.



Link Posted: 6/13/2009 7:53:41 PM EST
Then what you are saying is that more restrictions on private sales and more regulation is needed to protect Mexico from the U.S, correct?
You know Canada has waded into this now and is starting to insist the US is the major culprit in their crime issues too and our Government should do something to stop the crime in Canada that is caused by guns illegally flowing north.

I'm being disingenuous and you bought the merry guilt trip hook line and sinker.


Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck about crime in Canada or Mexico. That's their problem. Borders are porous things, which can never fully restrict the flow of commerce regardless of government action. Who cares. All you can do is move on.

Gee wiz....you saw pictures of stacked boxes of seized FN guns.....would those be the same ones sold to the Mexican Gov. that they then sold to the bad guys??????? I mean...hey ...if they can be given the keys to the jails so they can go get their buddys with nobody even trying to stop them then why not sell them or let them steal all those nice new guns from Mexican army and police armories???? I have more I could add but just got me an email from the local gunshop. My RPG's and hand gernades came in and need to go get them before they ship them down to Mexico.


The Mexican military would not be purchasing a US civilian-market-only neutered version of the rifle, they'd be buying actual F2000s and P90s, were they actually purchasing them. I have zero doubt in my mind that those rifles came from the civilian market in one way or another.

I would not define "a major source" as 17% of firearms seized in Mexico.


No clue where 17% comes from, but overall I'd say that number represents a major source. You can claim whatever you want, and try to deny the truth, but the real test of someone's integrity is accepting the unhappy truths of reality. There is, undoubtedly, an influence from the US civilian market. And in the northern areas of Mexico, I'm sure that presence is even stronger. The majority of guns smuggled into Mexico in the southern cities are undoubtedly from Central America, for the same reasons.

Pretending that less than a quarter of the firearms seized in an entire nation represents a "major source" of firearms is disingenuous. What it suggest is an attempt to use visual rhetoric in the form of a few photographs of a few firearms to suggest that the United States private market is a "major source" of firearms used in criminal acts in Mexico in order to justify further restrictions in the United States of America. I would forward that those who support such attempts to persuade the American people with phrases like "major source" and misleading photographs are a FAR greater danger to the U.S. Constitution than any acts carried out by Drug Cartels in a foreign country.

Your type of rhetoric presents a clear and present danger to the individual liberties of American citizens. It provides an excuse, but not a justification to those in the Congress looking to transform the U.S. from constitutional rule of law to a simple majority tyranny in order to diminish and make irrelevant an amendment contained within the Bill of Rights.


I have no rhetoric. I have the clear statement of facts, independent of political inclination or value. The evidence (as corrupted as the statistics likely are) is fairly clear that there IS some degree of influence upon the Mexican black market by the civilian gun market in the US. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why-any first-year economics student can probably explain how and why such patterns exist. The border isn't a barrier to the drug trade, so why should it present any greater of a barrier to the weapons trade?

What you completely fail to understand is that I don't give a damn. My only interest is the accuracy and validity of knowledge and analysis of a given subject. It is politically incorrect on AR15.com to suggest that Mexicans are getting weapons from the US, regardless of the fact that it's an obvious reality. It is this way because the news/political scene has focused upon the presence of weapons in Mexico as a tool to be used to exert leverage on US gun control laws, and anyone in agreement (in even the slightest degree, on even a single point) with the gun control people are to be considered The Enemy. As though the world is so simple as to be purely black and white, plus or minus, yes or no. Again, I quite frankly don't care..as a political scheme it's bound to fail regardless, for a variety of reasons. The sky is not falling (today). Politicians can be correct in their assumptions without being correct in their conclusions.

People on AR15 need (not that they will) to learn to seperate opinions from facts, and distinguish between the two. People can disagree on opinions, but when people begin to disagree on facts it's generally because one or both sides have already chosen what they want to believe, and no amount of evidence to the contrary can change that conviction.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 9:04:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 9:07:30 PM EST by Milo5]
I keeps slipping by you Wes.
The Military can buy P90s and anything else they want.
The Police Forces are limited and they do buy or are issued by the government of Mexico semi auto versions of the full auto weapons.

If you have been paying attention, the source of the problem isn't in the standing Mexican Army, those guy are doing their very merry best to try and put a cap on the problems down there though there is a pretty high level of desertion in some areas and these guys are known to take their weapons and equiptment with them.

The real problem lies with local and in some cases Federal police who work in partnership with or a some cases ARE the narco-terroristas.
The 5.7mm weapons, the Barrett .50 caliber rifles, all part and parcel issue weapons in Mexico.

Is it starting to sink in yet Wes?
The weapons may be coming from the US. via government approved export.
They aren't coming from Joe's Corner Gun Shop
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 11:35:53 AM EST
Could you please post these pictures of seized FN boxes that you keep talking about so the people here can take a look at them. Out of all the pictures of all the seized guns I've seen...I've never seen any that had US boxes in them. Also....if I lined up a bunch of guns on a sheet and put some boxes next to them...doesn't mean its true. Where are you getting your info? Like I said. Lets trace the guns and see where they are coming from. The news media is not a good source of info on this subject. And anything with anti-gun political people involved is not a good source either.What are the non-political law enforcement people saying on these guns? Like what was also said before...the guns in Mexico are not from local gun stores and any suggestion they are is just for political gains of anti-gun people.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 4:33:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By west2746:
Could you please post these pictures of seized FN boxes that you keep talking about so the people here can take a look at them. Out of all the pictures of all the seized guns I've seen...I've never seen any that had US boxes in them. Also....if I lined up a bunch of guns on a sheet and put some boxes next to them...doesn't mean its true. Where are you getting your info? Like I said. Lets trace the guns and see where they are coming from. The news media is not a good source of info on this subject. And anything with anti-gun political people involved is not a good source either.What are the non-political law enforcement people saying on these guns? Like what was also said before...the guns in Mexico are not from local gun stores and any suggestion they are is just for political gains of anti-gun people.


The news media has no idea how to distinguish between weapons-they never have and never will. They're not smart enough to try to fake photos.

Seized weapons:



Serbu BFG-50 - seized in Tuscon on its way south through a smuggling operation.



12 FN PS90s, an FS2000, an Olympic Arms OA-93 pistol, a bunch of AKs and SKSs, and some Desert Eagles.



Four FN FS2000s in clearly labeled boxes.



Arsenal SLR-106UR with Fake Suppressor - http://www.arsenalinc.com/slr106urs.htm



Those are not military weapons, they are not coming from Central America, and they are not weapons being purchased by corrupt Mexican police departments. Mexican police departments are not purchasing chrome-plated Tauruses and gold Desert Eagles, folks. They're civilian-market items sourced from the US, plain and simple. They may represent a smaller percentage of the weapons trade, but it's simply denial to claim they're not being bought and taken south.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:04:57 PM EST
I don't think anybody ever said there are not civilian guns going south. There are some. I think the point was not in the numbers that are being claimed and not in the matter. The number in those pictures are few. Its like 12 raindrops in a mid summer thunderstorm. Those boxes and weapons have serial numbers on them. Trace them to see where they are from and then charge the people responsible. If people are making illegal sells or the people buying them are putting them to illegal use then hold them responsable. WE HAVE ENOUGH GUN LAWS. Reasonably enforce what we have and see if that does something.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:42:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 6:43:07 PM EST by Milo5]
I know, I know, It's hard to want to believe, heck even I was almost drawn into the guilt trip.
But they fact is a few hundred gold and chrome plated pop pistols, a single shot .50 caliber rifle and a few boxed FS2000 rifles didn't do this,

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:53:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 7:32:55 PM EST by Milo5]
You see what happens is the narco guys buy or steal equiptment like this,

They are known to pull right up to Police stations, Military checkpoints, unsuspecting rivals,,,,and unleash a barrage of full auto fire, why?
Because if you can buy the uniform,,,,,,
Twelve PS90s do not make a dramatic increase in the level of anything in Mexico, nobody ever said NO weapons were getting in from the US.
Even I said and I quote, "Even I am not that naive."
And again, Police forces can and do buy semi auto versions of the Military items, the police are restricted in Mexico as to what they can possess just like the civilians.
In your picture did you bother to notice the 37mm gas gun, where did that come from Wes??
How many thousands of PS90s are in the US right now and they are having an effect on what?????
By the way, did anybody ever learn where that Barnett .50 used to assasinate the Police Chief in Nuevo Laredo ever came from??


No what I said was, and to paraphrase, Get your own house in order before you point your finger at the US and the people of the US as the root cause of all the worlds problems.
It ain't our fault.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:09:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By west2746:
I don't think anybody ever said there are not civilian guns going south. There are some. I think the point was not in the numbers that are being claimed and not in the matter. The number in those pictures are few. Its like 12 raindrops in a mid summer thunderstorm.


That's not exactly what some people have been saying, but OK. How do we really know how many firearms are being bought on the civilian market and smuggled across the border? We can both agree that the media knows jack shit, and it's pretty much a given that the respective governments aren't necessarily going to be providing accurate figures. Somewhere between the extremes lies the truth, and the relevent issue is how we should go about estimating where that truth really is.

What I do find interesting is that numerous sources, both second-hand reports and simple observation of weapons seizures, seem to suggest that Mexican criminals have a strong demand for FN-USA firearms, particularly the PS90, FS2000, and Five-Seven. These are almost unquestionably being sourced through the civilian market, and they're repeatedly being found during arrests. My personal judgment is that the Mexican police and military should be grateful that the cartels are stupid enough to believe FN marketing propaganda, and choose to arm themselves with less-than-optimum hardware when they could be purchasing more effective weapons, actually capable of penetrating body armor and surviving serious use, just as easily.

Also noteworthy is the fact that Barrett .50 BMG rifles (M82A1, M95, M99) continually turn up in seizures, but yet virtually never (I've yet to read even so much as a single report) actually get used by the cartels during fighting. Ammunition availability doesn't seem to be a problem, so either the criminals simply can't deploy the Barretts effectively in impromptu urban combat, or they're largely afraid to shoot them, or there's some other unknown factor at work preventing their use in favor of RPGs, grenades, and standard carbines.

If people are making illegal sells or the people buying them are putting them to illegal use then hold them responsable. WE HAVE ENOUGH GUN LAWS. Reasonably enforce what we have and see if that does something.


Granted. You make the mistake of thinking that I believe we can or should do anything in particular in legislative terms to influence the situation. I do not. Nor do I really care that much about the actions of criminals in Mexico (although if I lived in Mexico it is likely that I would indeed care greatly).

On the other hand, I don't believe existing laws are ultimately going to make a tremendous difference. Concerted law enforcement efforts by state and federal agencies along bordering states may very well act to reduce the flow of commerce across the border, but it certainly can't end it, neither temporarily or permanently. Where demand exists for a given commodity, there will always be a supply for it-a precept that's been amply proven over the past few decades by our own Sisyphean "War On Drugs". Success, as defined by the accomplishment of a reduced rate of violence, can only be achieved by addressing the causes that underline the demand itself, and acting to eliminate or subvert that demand. In plain terms, the cartels would have to be broken up and a greater level of stability returned to the country before the smuggling problem will decline. This won't happen in the near future for a variety of political reasons rooted in the nature of both countries.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:28:25 PM EST
The demand for FN-USA products amonst the narco guys isn't really that great Wes, the media likes to portray it that way and it is just more propoganda.
Some Narcos are gun guys too, they like the newest and the best and they have the money to obtain it by any means.
Again, a few of this and a few of that changes nothing.

The 1994 Gun Ban came into effect at the same time there were dramatic positive increases in gun design, civilians were not able to access that technology for ten years because of the ban.
Again, dramatic designs are coming onto the firearms scene and yet again, the powers that be want to limit civilian access, this time, they want to make the limits permanent.
Don't fall into the propoganda trap and let that happen.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:55:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Milo5:
The demand for FN-USA products amonst the narco guys isn't really that great Wes, the media likes to portray it that way and it is just more propoganda.
Some Narcos are gun guys too, they like the newest and the best and they have the money to obtain it by any means.
Again, a few of this and a few of that changes nothing.


Who's to say, really? It's not like there's a neutral third party going around conducting firearm preference surveys on ar15.mexico.com. Undoubtedly there's a wide variety of preferences amongst a wide variety of criminal elements, ranging from petty criminals to well-organized drug cartels. For all we know, none of them have any real interest in FN weapons. Or, just as plausibly, it's the only thing they're interested in acquiring. In all probability, there's a fair demand for them, judging by their presence in weapons seizures. What gets shown on television is only what they caught, which means there's always far more of them out there than you see. Just like criminals in the ghetto, who always seem fascinated by gold-plated Desert Eagles and AKs.

The 1994 Gun Ban came into effect at the same time there were dramatic positive increases in gun design, civilians were not able to access that technology for ten years because of the ban.
Again, dramatic designs are coming onto the firearms scene and yet again, the powers that be want to limit civilian access, this time, they want to make the limits permanent.
Don't fall into the propoganda trap and let that happen.


What the heck are you talking about, and what does it have to do with the subject at hand?

The propaganda trap is believing everything that one side says, regardless of which side. The truth is almost always somewhere between the two poles, and generally a halfways intelligent individual can get a read on how things really are, by paying close attention to the evidence. The crime wave in Mexico is not the product of the gun control groups in Washington, and nor is there some giant conspiracy on the part of our government to go door-to-door grabbing your guns. The usual suspects with Brady et all in DC will make the usual noise at the usual times when events hit the news, and this is to be expected. It does not mean that anything is going to change in the near future. The sky is not falling, people.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 10:29:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 10:30:41 PM EST by Milo5]
Well, you Wes made the point of making the FN produced weapons the preferred popgun of choice for the Mexican bad guys.
Then you went along with the idea that those FN produced weapons along with a few gussied up handguns were the conclusive proof that the USA is the Arms supplier of choice for the southern riff-raff.
What is happening in Mexico happened in Columbia and is having a substantial effect in the Central American states along with Venezuela, Chile, Equador and Brazil.
I don't hear these countries demanding the US government restrict the rights of US citizens to magically solve their domestic woes.
Not even Sir Hugo De Venezuela has made such a preposterous demand!

Sure, we can build a big wall, cut off the flow of people and goods and services, we're free, Fuck you.
Not the best ideals for a country I love being a part of though.

What does 1994 assault weapons ban have to do with this little thread?
In 1994 it was school kids shooting school kids that prompted the big change in the gun laws even though the reality is nothing changed with the implimentation of the ban.
Today the propoganda has gotten far more elaborate with another country TELLING our government to enact more stringent gun control to protect their sovereign nation from itself.

Seriously, is any of this sinking in or are you just hitting on key words for the sake of an arguement and no, the sky is not falling.

Again, and read this carefully.
I find it extremely distasteful that another country would blame the citizens of this country for the problems it faces on the domestic level.
I find it extremely distasteful and downright rude that that country has the audacity to tell my country to do something about the domestic problems they face by insisting that my countries government enact restrictions on MY countries citizens private rights.
In turn, my country and its people as a whole should insist that Mexico gets the domestic issues in that country, and I detail what I am alluding to here, Rampant Lawlessness and Rampant Corruption at all levels of their own government under control BEFORE making accusations against the citizens of this country and BEFORE placing demands on my countries government.
I WILL NOT WILLINGLY SURRENDER MY RIGHTS TO APPEASE THE FEARS AND DESIRES OF ANY OTHER NATION, PERIOD!
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