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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/23/2002 9:02:25 PM EDT
Hypothetically, if your rifle runs dry and you're forced to draw your sidearm, what do you do with the rifle?

I was taught to tuck the empty gun under my left arm, then draw my sidearm with my right and shoot one-handed.

The HK Tactical Sling apparently lets you drop the gun and the sling will hold it against you while you shoot your sidearm with two hands. That's a good idea, but the HK sling is too damned complicated for someone of my humble intellect to figure out!

How does everyone else do it?

By the way, I've had a long and troubled relationship with HK's products, warrantees, and customer service. Their products are, IMHO, over-engineered, over-priced, and over-rated.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:11:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By blackmanta:
That's a good idea, but the HK sling is too damned complicated for someone of my humble intellect to figure out!



Ok I totally agree with you about HK being overrated and over-engineered. But if you cant manipulate that sling system, switching from your primary weapon to a secondary handgun is the least of your concerns. Find someone that is comfortable with this style and get them to help you figure it out. Then PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:13:56 PM EDT
Or you could just drop your damn rifle on the ground as a Sheriff friend of mine likes to do.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:14:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 9:18:22 PM EDT by blackmanta]
Actually, I've decided to keep my old system.

Not that I'm dissing the newer system, just that the older one works fine and I'm alot more practiced at it.

As far as dropping the gun is concerned, there's a former Marine-turned-civilian firearms instructor that would probably pick the gun up from the ground and (quite justifiably) dent my head with it!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:45:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFNG:
Or you could just drop your damn rifle on the ground as a Sheriff friend of mine likes to do.



Rifles can still be used as weapons even if its empty... the bad guy could pick up the rifle behind you and knock you out with the butt...
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:49:07 PM EDT
Dunno about the HK, but if it's similar to the Giles here's a few pictures:

www.lagger-pro.com/gilesTG.htm
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:51:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rahimiv:

Originally Posted By TheFNG:
Or you could just drop your damn rifle on the ground as a Sheriff friend of mine likes to do.



Rifles can still be used as weapons even if its empty... the bad guy could pick up the rifle behind you and knock you out with the butt...



Ok were not talking about WAR here, this is more for self defense.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:04:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 10:08:05 PM EDT by 58sniper]
Hoping that this makes sense....

With a standard two point sling, and, assuming a right handed shooter....

With the rifle in shooting position, take your left hand (which would normally be on the handguards), and grab the sling right near the rear sling mount (palm down). Let go of the rifle with your right hand, and the rifle will fall against (the outside of) your left arm. Now just sling the rifle, muzzle down, over your left shoulder as your right hand goes for the handgun.

With a three point "tactical" sling, I just let go of the rifle as I go for the pistol. A slight "oomph" as the tactical charging latch whacks me in the ribs, but that's it. Usually, the latch hits the sling and it's not bad....The left hand can hold the rifle against the body, or you can opt for the two-hands-on-the-pistol approach.

You can also just rotate the muzzle down towards your weak side, keep the toe of the stock in your shoulder "pocket". When the rifle is against the body, hold it in place with the left hand, and go for the backup with your right hand.

If it's dark, and you have a rifle mounted light, you can take the rifle with your left hand and stick it muzzle FORWARD under your left arm - the light stays shining forward as your right hand goes for the pistol.

I've seen some other variations as well...

I hope this makes sense. If not, I suppose I could do some photos...
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 6:10:45 PM EDT
Hello all,

I agree with 58 sniper. I use a single point sling currently and frankly when transitioning to my sidearm I just let my rifle go and it hangs right in front of me. As soon as my hands let go of the rifle I'm drawing my sidearm.

As far as the dark room goes, I like 58 snipers idea and I'll try it sometime but right now my surefire is held to my RIS with a quick release ARMS mount. I can remove it from my rifle with the flick of a lever and then I've got my light in my left hand and my handgun in my right with my rifle in front of me.

The biggest problem with the rifle being right in front of you is moving. Again when dropping my single point sling equipped rifle the damn thing is right in front of my legs impeding forward motion. Normally a quick sweep of the hand will move the rifle to my side and forward as well as backward movement is possible.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:32:57 PM EDT
Here's a tip from my instructor at Blackwater. When you transition to your side arm, swing the pistol grip of your rifle in, so now as it lays across your chest, the pistol grip will face to the left(if you're a right handed shooter). This way you don't get jammed by the tac latch, if you need to walk it won't bounce around as much, and if you need to run you can tuck it with and under your left arm so you can still have your side arm at the ready.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:54:47 PM EDT
Depends on how quickly we need to get back in the fight. Sling it weak side if I had time, drop and draw for emergency. I would definately MOVE to a better position if I could, like to a place that had more ammo for the longarm PDQ. Pistols are poor stoppers and lack adequate range, you may find out the sidearm is soon running on empty too.
That would really suck.
Lebrew
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 8:02:57 PM EDT
You guys are a lot calmer under stress than I am. I was taught to run a few wraps of 550 cord through the rear sling attachment and make a 2 inch diameter loop. Hook this to a lightweight D ring and D ring it to your LBV on your right shoulder. That way it is in position to be aimed with just one hand if necessary, and it hangs at your shoulder's pocket. I can't really do complex tasks when I am stressed out and my hands shake a little from adrenalin. The blood in my brain circulates differently when I am under stress, and that is why we trained and trained ad nauseum for that kind of thing so that when the blood left our forebrains we would still be able to function effectively. D ring that sucker to your LBV and practice quick reload drills. That sidearm comes out when you are retreating because you were crazy enough or in deep enough doo doo to fire your primary weapon totally dry.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:48:43 PM EDT
I was taught to go to low ready, release the rifle with the strong hand, then draw and shoot one handed, and once time is available sling or fix the rifle. This is fast, keeps you from dropping the rifle if you didn't/forgot to sling up with your tac-sling, and keeps the rifle weaponlight available and on target.

With a standard carry strap you can quickly sling to African or American carry and shoot two-handed.

With a tac-sling you can drop the rifle onto the sling and draw and shoot two-handed. This is what I do, with the modification that I guide the rifle down with my left hand rather than letting it smash into me.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 10:32:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Francisco_dAnconia:
I was taught to go to low ready, release the rifle with the strong hand, then draw and shoot one handed, and once time is available sling or fix the rifle. This is fast, keeps you from dropping the rifle if you didn't/forgot to sling up with your tac-sling, and keeps the rifle weaponlight available and on target.

With a standard carry strap you can quickly sling to African or American carry and shoot two-handed.

With a tac-sling you can drop the rifle onto the sling and draw and shoot two-handed. This is what I do, with the modification that I guide the rifle down with my left hand rather than letting it smash into me.



African Carry? American Carry? Please educate me.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 1:06:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Uhlek:
African Carry? American Carry? Please educate me.


First off, these require your standard carry strap like the one that came from the factory with your AR15. African carry is over the left shoulder with the muzzle down. American carry is over the right shoulder with the muzzle up. To sling African style grab the sling next to the rear swivel and hook it over your shoulder (like 58sniper said.) To sling American style grab the sling next to the front swivel with your right hand and hook it over your shoulder.

Tatjana has a thread about these in the Tactics forum.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 2:54:29 AM EDT
The fastest response to a downed weapon, empty or jammed, is to present a new one.

The Israelis used to use the "drop" method (for lack of a better term) for transition drills. They shot the weapon dry, dropped it and went to sidearm. It probably did make for fast transitions.

Here is the transition drill, verbatim from my rifle class (sorry I can't post the stupid-looking pictures of me doing this that come with the class). This is pretty much the suggested HK method that they teach at subgun an rifle courses. You can skip step 1, but HK recommends it.

1) When the weapon fails to fire, squeeze the trigger on more time.
2) Pull the rifle down and across your body with your nonfiring hand.
3) Get a good shooting grip on your sidearm with your firing hand and release the retention devices on your holster.
5) Pull your sidearm straight up from the holster.
6) Rotate the muzzle up and “punch” it out at the threat.
7) Bring your support hand up to the sidearm and let the weapon fall on its sling(optional).
8) Engage the target, as needed.
9) When time permits, conduct immediate action/reloading.

It looks like a lot to do, but it is fast with practice. Another step may well be to seek cover as well, but that is the "advanced" version. Steps 2 & 3 are performed simultaneously. If your weapon has a traditional 2 point bottom sling, I suggest using the same drill and omitting step 7. Without looking (because I don't have my Standards Drills handy), I think the standard on this one is: from a low ready, get a failure to fire, transition, and get two hits on steel at 10 yards in under 4 seconds. It can be done easily with practice.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 3:54:20 AM EDT
Throw it at him, muzzle first. If you're a good ninja, you'll hit his eye with so much force that the muzzle will be pushed into his brain and you can just go to Bennigan's and eat your Monte Cristo. Ninjas are the ultimate paradox. On the one hand they don't give a crap, but on the other hand, ninjas are very careful and precise.

And that's what I call Real Ultimate Power!!!
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 2:15:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GungHo:
Throw it at him, muzzle first. If you're a good ninja, you'll hit his eye with so much force that the muzzle will be pushed into his brain and you can just go to Bennigan's and eat your Monte Cristo.




If I saw that, I would totally crap my pants!
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