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Posted: 12/13/2016 11:26:44 PM EST
Yes, I realize it costs $200 for each item, I get that, lol!

Just starting to get educated on this but at the very least it appears I need to fill our a form 4 and a 5320.23 for each item.

The reason for this is "trust A" is a generic trust with a stupid long name created when I was single.
"trust B" was recently created with a nice short name for the specific purpose of doing Form 1 SBRs and the associated engraving.
Also I am now married. So "trust B" has the ability to add co-trustees such as my wife where "trust A" did not have that flexibility.
Something tells me if I don't let my wife shoot my SBRs and suppressors I am going to have some 'splaining to do...



Link Posted: 12/14/2016 12:52:26 AM EST
Just have 2 trusts. I have 2. One with a generic dumb long name for suppressors, and a 2nd with a very short name for engraving.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 1:25:19 AM EST
I have Title II stuff owned as an individual, a trust with others, and a trust by myself.

It would be nice to put everything on the trust that only has me, but at $200 a pop there's incredibly little utility in that. Just register more stuff, OP. Anything else is virtually a wasted stamp.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 1:30:29 AM EST
Trust "A" before 41f ? Old Trust, old rules. Trust "B" after 41f ? New trust new rules.
Why roll into new trust ? Old trust old rules. Don't know rules for your state but, Why can't you make changes to old trust ? Just have 2.
Of course if you just want everything condensed and don't care about the money...OK. New trust under new rules and move items into it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 8:01:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Number1gun:
Trust "A" before 41f ? Old Trust, old rules. Trust "B" after 41f ? New trust new rules.
Why roll into new trust ? Old trust old rules. Don't know rules for your state but, Why can't you make changes to old trust ? Just have 2.
Of course if you just want everything condensed and don't care about the money...OK. New trust under new rules and move items into it.
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what rules are you talking about? 41f didn't affect the rules of any trusts, or how trusts are used. It only changed the paperwork for transferring to a trust.

Any "old trust" still has to follow the new rules, as would a new trust. I guess I'm not sure what you mean. 
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 10:56:45 AM EST
Amend or restate your trust A to change those provisions you desire. This will save you $200 per item in trust A.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 11:43:14 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Daggertt:
what rules are you talking about? 41f didn't affect the rules of any trusts, or how trusts are used. It only changed the paperwork for transferring to a trust.

Any "old trust" still has to follow the new rules, as would a new trust. I guess I'm not sure what you mean. 
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Originally Posted By Daggertt:
Originally Posted By Number1gun:
Trust "A" before 41f ? Old Trust, old rules. Trust "B" after 41f ? New trust new rules.
Why roll into new trust ? Old trust old rules. Don't know rules for your state but, Why can't you make changes to old trust ? Just have 2.
Of course if you just want everything condensed and don't care about the money...OK. New trust under new rules and move items into it.
what rules are you talking about? 41f didn't affect the rules of any trusts, or how trusts are used. It only changed the paperwork for transferring to a trust.

Any "old trust" still has to follow the new rules, as would a new trust. I guess I'm not sure what you mean. 


Pre 41f trust operates under rules in place at time of inception. Except you could not add NFA items now to a pre 41f trust without submitting the required 41f paperwork..because you would be transferring an item after the date of change. However I see nothing to keep the OP from adding his Wife to the pre 41f trust without 41f paperwork. Pre 41f rules only addressed the legal standing of a trust entity at the time of transfer, not the Responsable persons portion now in place with 41f. ATF has no clue how many trustee changes have taken place on pre 41f trusts. Notification on pre 41f trustee changes not needed. Not Addressed in 41f rules.
There was quite a bit of back and forth on this a few months ago.
I may have missed a recent clarification from ATF but last I knew. changes of trustees on pre 41f trusts were not addressed within 41f. Only adding an NFA item to a pre 41f trust would trigger new rules.
If there was a clarification someone post it up please. 41f address new transfers of NFA items not previous ones.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 12:21:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2016 12:21:47 PM EST by Gopherboy128]
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Originally Posted By Number1gun:


Pre 41f trust operates under rules in place at time of inception. Except you could not add NFA items now to a pre 41f trust without submitting the required 41f paperwork..because you would be transferring an item after the date of change. However I see nothing to keep the OP from adding his Wife to the pre 41f trust without 41f paperwork. Pre 41f rules only addressed the legal standing of a trust entity at the time of transfer, not the Responsable persons portion now in place with 41f. ATF has no clue how many trustee changes have taken place on pre 41f trusts. Notification on pre 41f trustee changes not needed. Not Addressed in 41f rules.
There was quite a bit of back and forth on this a few months ago.
I may have missed a recent clarification from ATF but last I knew. changes of trustees on pre 41f trusts were not addressed within 41f. Only adding an NFA item to a pre 41f trust would trigger new rules.
If there was a clarification someone post it up please. 41f address new transfers of NFA items not previous ones.
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That makes my head hurt.

OP- is your wife going to go shooting without you? And take your NFA stuff?

If not, don't worry about it. Take her out shooting and let her shoot your stuff.
If so, type an ammendment making her a trustee, you and her go and get it notarized, and file it with your original trust paperwork. Then, she would have to be listed on any future purchases as a "responsible person" and do her share of the RPQ paperwork, etc.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 1:22:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 1:34:01 PM EST
OP,

You can have current simple trusts expanded to allow co-trusties and the what not.

I had the "bronze" trust from NW Gun Law group and when I had my estate plan done part of it was to get my bronze expanded to allow for all the options as it just happened to be the same lawyer.

Also, I don't understand having two different trusts done. The engraving is a pain, but not worth the legal costs for trust setup or the extra transfer fees going from A to B.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 5:34:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By robeans:
OP,

You can have current simple trusts expanded to allow co-trusties and the what not.

I had the "bronze" trust from NW Gun Law group and when I had my estate plan done part of it was to get my bronze expanded to allow for all the options as it just happened to be the same lawyer.

Also, I don't understand having two different trusts done. The engraving is a pain, but not worth the legal costs for trust setup or the extra transfer fees going from A to B.
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Yeah, after re-reading "trust A" I now see I have the ability to add a co-trustee. So I will just add her as a co-trustee to "trust A" and call it good.

Thanks to all for all the feedback.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 7:48:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ddc:


Yeah, after re-reading "trust A" I now see I have the ability to add a co-trustee. So I will just add her as a co-trustee to "trust A" and call it good.

Thanks to all for all the feedback.
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I was about to say something is fucky if you can't add parties.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 7:50:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 10:27:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By BigWaylon:

While you're at it, check to see if you can add an amendment that says "as of MM/DD/YYYY this trust shall be known as ShortName Trust". <img src=http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
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I wish... That was the first question I asked. Once you've used a "trust name" and have put NFA items in that trust you have two choices. Keep those items in "trust name" or transfer them to "new trust name" with the $200 "don't past go,lol" fee for each item you wish to transfer.

It was actually pretty straightforward to add my wife as a co-trustee to my first trust. I'll do my form 1 build within my second trust with the shorter name. She'll be co-trustee for both. Now I have to educate her on just what having control of an NFA item means legally.
Link Posted: 12/15/2016 12:39:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/15/2016 12:39:54 AM EST by BigWaylon]
Link Posted: 12/15/2016 9:31:06 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ddc:
That was the first question I asked.
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Who did you ask? That makes all the difference in the world. ATF can't make rules regarding trusts. They can only make rules how items are transferred.

If my trust name was "John Quincy Doe Revocable Living Trust" I would file a notarized ammendment stating it will also be known as "Doe Trust" and that way you aren't "changing" the name, but could (hopefully) file Form 1 SBR that way.
Link Posted: 12/15/2016 1:14:20 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:


Who did you ask? That makes all the difference in the world. ATF can't make rules regarding trusts. They can only make rules how items are transferred.

If my trust name was "John Quincy Doe Revocable Living Trust" I would file a notarized ammendment stating it will also be known as "Doe Trust" and that way you aren't "changing" the name, but could (hopefully) file Form 1 SBR that way.
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I asked an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts. His literal answer: "Once a trust is used the name cannot be changed."
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 1:57:04 AM EST
Ask some other trust attorney's as that answer is more than likely going to vary.
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 9:31:33 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ddc:


I asked an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts. His literal answer: "Once a trust is used the name cannot be changed."
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Is this the attorney who did your trusts?
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 2:55:56 AM EST
Yes.
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 10:25:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 12:50:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:

Who did you ask? That makes all the difference in the world. ATF can't make rules regarding trusts. They can only make rules how items are transferred.

If my trust name was "John Quincy Doe Revocable Living Trust" I would file a notarized ammendment stating it will also be known as "Doe Trust" and that way you aren't "changing" the name, but could (hopefully) file Form 1 SBR that way.
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Ok wiseguy. Do you have any documentation that a Form 1 could be filed that way or are you just "hopeful"?

Either way, thanks for the feedback.
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 3:47:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:


Who did you ask? That makes all the difference in the world. ATF can't make rules regarding trusts. They can only make rules how items are transferred.

If my trust name was "John Quincy Doe Revocable Living Trust" I would file a notarized ammendment stating it will also be known as "Doe Trust" and that way you aren't "changing" the name, but could (hopefully) file Form 1 SBR that way.
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It may be legally possible, but I'd rather keep paperwork that matches the Form 1/4 and just make a new trust if needed. Granted that trusts are simple documents that lawyers make complicated, it still shouldn't cost so much that you can't get a second or third or whatever else.
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 6:22:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ddc:


Ok wiseguy. Do you have any documentation that a Form 1 could be filed that way or are you just "hopeful"?

Either way, thanks for the feedback.
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When I set up my trust initially, it was for suppressors only, as that is all that was allowed in my state that I was interested in. (AOW was legal too, but I didn't have any of those on my list of 'Must Have') So when SBRs were allowed, I realized having a long-ass trust name wasn't going to fly. So I copied my first trust documents, and replaced the name with something easy to engrave. I have 1 trust for suppressors, and 1 for SBRs. The only difference between them is the trust name, and date established. Trustees, beneficiaries, etc is all word-for-word identical. Cost me 5 minutes and some printer ink. Notarized for free at my credit union, and good-to-go.

THAT SAID- No I have not tried submitting an NFA application with an ammended trust name. I have read online where others have done so, and gotten approved *BECAUSE* there is language in their trusts that give them the power as grantor and trustee, to do so.

I am always leery when people who have something to sell you, say "No you can't do that"
Link Posted: 12/19/2016 12:00:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:
I am always leery when people who have something to sell you, say "No you can't do that"
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I hear ya.
Link Posted: 12/19/2016 10:34:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:

(bunch of stuff deleted...)

THAT SAID- No I have not tried submitting an NFA application with an ammended trust name. I have read online where others have done so, and gotten approved *BECAUSE* there is language in their trusts that give them the power as grantor and trustee, to do so.
"
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I'm having a hard time believing that but what do I know.
This attorney doesn't think so either...
Can I change the name of my NFA trust
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 12:47:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By BigWaylon:

While you're at it, check to see if you can add an amendment that says "as of MM/DD/YYYY this trust shall be known as ShortName Trust".
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My lawyer, who is a well know gun trust guy said this was no good. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 5:15:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By robeans:


My lawyer, who is a well know gun trust guy said this was no good. YMMV
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Is he saying it's no good, because that is what ATF has said? This is my point of contention with all of this, is that I haven't seen anything where ATF has said "This won't fly"
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 9:00:59 PM EST

Ok I can confirm in my case a amended trust with a new much shorter name was approved. Restatement was done by the attorney who is a ar15.com member that set up the trust and only the amended trust was given to the atf from then on. I no longer use that use that trust for new transfers but it still owns several NFA items purchased from 2008 to 2014 no problem.

Of course I have stuff like this form so maybe I am a exception.

Link Posted: 12/20/2016 9:35:43 PM EST
But lawyers said you can't! J/K

Glad to have 1st hand account that it's possible
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