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Posted: 3/24/2009 9:48:19 AM EDT
Greetings,

Timing is everything in life and my timing, as usual, sucks. I have a hankering for an M14 (semi auto, no NFA parts need apply). I have a few questions about the reality of M14 life and lore.

Question #1: Weight. Can I realistically get an M14 under ten pounds scoped and loaded with five rounds?

Question #2: Receivers: The LRB M25 receiver seems to be rational, as it has the option to use irons as well as presenting a solid scope mount. What do you get if you go with the rear lugs? Do you realistically see a gain in mechanical accuracy with a lighter weight barrel, or is the benefit best seen with heavy barrels?

Question #3: I do not mean to start a flame war. If you feel this question is provocative, at least give me the option of a cigarette and blindfold before you open fire. For the $$ am I better off going to an AR-10/DPMS 308 platform for my 7.62mm "needs"? I like the balance of the full size M14 (M1A) more than an AR10 style rifle but I grew up in the dark ages and I like to shoot my M1 Garand. What would you do if you were in my shoes? Suicide is not an option, sorry.

Question #4: What is the deal with the scope mount on traditional M1A/M14s? I remember helping a friend with his Springfield ages ago and the rifle would not return to zero if you removed the mount- no matter what the manufacturer said. Is the M25 receiver the fix for this?

Question #5: Is there significant weight difference between a synthetic stock and a walnut USGI stock? Is the McMillan the one you would go with if you were interested in synthetic?
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 10:09:15 AM EDT
If I was you, this is what I'd do. Look for a Bush rifle or a scout. Or if money is not an issue, something from fulton maybe. I think you would be close to 10 or a little over with just a basic GI and a scope that isn't too huge. I think the GI contoured barrel will give you acceptable accuracy with certain loads. In fact, it could even be rather accurate. I also think that trying to make it as light as possible is a good thing because they are heavy. Compared to an Heavy barreled bolt gun they're not heavy. But compared to an AR they are.


If I was to have all my druthers. I would look for a Bush rifle or a standard, put it in a USGI synthetic stock and go from there. I would try and ring all the accuracy I could out of it. And I would use a good scope mount and rings with a optic that isn't huge. If you get a standard you could send the trigger group to SEI and get a NM deal. And then go from there. Shim the gas system. All the other stuff that makes an M14 accurate. Which I don't know what that all is, but there are things you can do. I look forward to hearing if you put such a thing together.

I currently have a Loaded and like it very much. But I'm not dragging that thing around in the woods or anything. I have it scoped up with the big ole wood stock it comes with and it's almost 12 lbs. In fact, I think it was. I weighed it last night and forgot exactly what it was. Some day, I may go the route you're trying to go. Maybe if I ever shoot out this barrel I'll revamp it. I don't think I'll have the cash for another though.

And yes, the USGI synthetic stock is much lighter than any wood stock. Except for maybe the Chu wood stock a poly comes in.
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 11:00:35 AM EDT
Thanks for the response JJREA.

Weight is an issue, as I will probably decide to lug the thing into the woods during my yearly search to rout the whitetail.

As for $$, unfortunately it is always an issue with me. I could go the "installment" route and purchase the receiver. The M25 receiver that LRB makes appears to be a good choice.

Is there a good book you can recommend about accurizing (etc.) M14s? I would like to become more educated before I start to spray money around.

Thanks,
Cheese
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 11:09:31 AM EDT
A Bush rifle in a SAGE EBR with a CTR, snap on cheek riser, LaRure LT-608 extended
picatinny rail, rings, moderate scope and 5 rounds will weigh in at about 10.50 pounds.

The scope mount has throw levers and the cheek riser snaps off allowing you to go to irons fast.
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 11:31:20 AM EDT
I will speak for the synthetic stock vs walnut stock question, as I took my synthetic stock out for the first time this past weekend. The synthetic stock is significantly lighter than the standard Springfield walnut stock. It is also narrower than the walnut stock, which is my favorite thing about the synthetic stock.

Recoil is also more noticeable with the synthetic stock, as it is lighter and also harder (for me) to get a tight cheek weld with its slicker surface.
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 11:34:11 AM EDT
The SAGE stock sure doesn't "look" light. I didn't expect that at all.

Thanks for the idea.

The M14 family is creating a vortex into which my wallet seems about to disappear...
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 12:58:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cheesebeast:
Question #3: I do not mean to start a flame war. If you feel this question is provocative, at least give me the option of a cigarette and blindfold before you open fire. For the $$ am I better off going to an AR-10/DPMS 308 platform for my 7.62mm "needs"? I like the balance of the full size M14 (M1A) more than an AR10 style rifle but I grew up in the dark ages and I like to shoot my M1 Garand. What would you do if you were in my shoes? Suicide is not an option, sorry.


This is a more philosophical question than I can intelligently answer but, If your goal is a 7.62 hi cap repeater and you are on a budget, buy an AR10 and invest the extra in optics.

Or do like half the people on this board, including myself, and get at least one of each .
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 9:46:55 PM EDT
Get the book "m14 owners guide" by Scott A. Duff
that will get you started. there is another authers name on the book too, but the above will let you find it.

LRB's m25 is for a scope only rifle in my opinion. If you want to use irons, go with the normal reseaver. There are a couple of good mounts available today, so if you want to mount a scope to a standard reseiver its no problem. Forget about rear lug reseivers. Unless your shooting matches hardcore, plus it is added weight. Get used to the idea of a 10 pound rifle. Mcmillian stocks are top notch, but cost big$ and are heavy with big dementions. USGI fiberglass are good, but tend to get hot quick. I like USGI walnut stocks, but it is hard to beat a good laminated wood stock. You can always paint it if you dont like the lam look.

Look at and handle as many rifles as you can before you buy. There are alot of them out there. Get the book and read the part on how to inspect and buy a rifle.
good luck
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 5:09:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2009 5:44:36 AM EDT by Cheesebeast]
Thanks on the book recommendation- I will buy the book and get educated.

I wish there was a simple conversion available for the M1 Garand. Something that would replace the trigger group and would allow the use of a magazine. Sort of a "drop in" BM59 kit.

Edit: I ordered the Duff book and the Kulek/Mckee book as well.
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 5:28:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cheesebeast:

The SAGE stock sure doesn't "look" light. I didn't expect that at all.

Thanks for the idea.


Additional ounces can be trimmed off the SAGE...





Link Posted: 3/25/2009 6:30:18 AM EDT
Have you found the SAGE stock (due to the pistol grip) has altered your perception of the trigger pull? Does it feel lighter to you than it did with the conventional M14 stock?

I have noticed I can tolerate a heavier trigger pull weight on my AR15s than I can with a conventional rifle stock (bolt gun, for instance). I think it has to do with the more "straight line" motion used to squeeze the trigger on my ARs.

Also, how has the SAGE stock changed the balance of your rifle? Is the balance point just ahead of the magazine? I would guess I would shoot a SAGE stocked M14 better in the offhand position than a conventionally stocked M14, but what about snap shooting? Has the SAGE stock improved your shooting scores?
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 12:50:33 PM EDT
IF you are going to order an LRB ,you need to get on the ball i ordered a complete M25 rifle,22" barrel chrome lined,etc,etc, back in mid December then they told me it would be a 6 month to 1 year wait. it has been over 3 months and still no call as to its going into production. best of luck
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 2:38:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cheesebeast:
Have you found the SAGE stock (due to the pistol grip) has altered your perception of the trigger pull? Does it feel lighter to you than it did with the conventional M14 stock?

I have noticed I can tolerate a heavier trigger pull weight on my AR15s than I can with a conventional rifle stock (bolt gun, for instance). I think it has to do with the more "straight line" motion used to squeeze the trigger on my ARs.

Also, how has the SAGE stock changed the balance of your rifle? Is the balance point just ahead of the magazine? I would guess I would shoot a SAGE stocked M14 better in the offhand position than a conventionally stocked M14, but what about snap shooting? Has the SAGE stock improved your shooting scores?


I have very little trigger time with the M14 in a standard stock, after decades of shooting ARs
the pistol griped M14 feels natural. The balance is just fine for me but it all depends on what
you have mounted out front and what butt stock you are running.

I shoot to score hits and I'm very comfortable with the SAGE EBR in all sorts of shooting positions. I hope that helps
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 3:05:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2009 3:05:32 PM EDT by Lympago]
The pistol grip to traditional stock thing is all preference, but an M14 in a painted usgi fiberglass is closer to looking and handling like a traditional hunting rifle. If that matters. A tuned M14 trigger is a damn nice trigger too, and not expensive to have a good smith do.
The usgi fiberglass is a very light stock and one of the best choices to me for someone wanting to setup an M14 in a light hunting setup.

Since most shots aren't going to be out of 100 yards and those that are aren't going to likely be outside 200-300 that you should take, you don't need the mother of all scopes to have a good hunting optic and keep your weight down.
An illuminated low power scope like a 1-4 or 1.25-4 is really all you need and will be better for actual hunting distance than a 3-9 or above since you can get targeted on your game faster at a lower power. An Aimpoint or Eotech is far from a bad choice either and an M14 setup like this is a great general setup to me for not just hunting but wen the shit hits the fan and it's probably going to soon enough.

For example

The LRB M25 is a very nice receiver, but there's alot of versatility in a regular receiver with the various mounts that are out there these days. I own 2 M1A's, a tuned Fullsize and tuned Scout and both are very good shooters, but I would like an LRB myself. If you can't wait or afford one though, there's nothing wrong with an M1A for a good commercial M14.
The best all around, and light setup for what your looking for, while still capable of long range shots is a 18 1/2 GI contour barreled M14/M1A in a usgi fiberglass in my opinion. There light, fast and handy.
How you set it up, is up to you.




Link Posted: 3/25/2009 3:22:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2009 3:23:58 PM EDT by H2O_MAN]
Good stuff here


Originally Posted By Lympago:

An illuminated low power scope like a 1-4 or 1.25-4 is really all you need and will be better for actual hunting distance than a 3-9 or above since you can get targeted on your game faster at a lower power. An Aimpoint or Eotech is far from a bad choice either and an M14 setup like this is a great general setup to me for not just hunting but wen the shit hits the fan and it's probably going to soon enough.





Hell, the entire post is excellent
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 3:37:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2009 3:38:52 PM EDT by Lympago]
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
Good stuff here


Originally Posted By Lympago:

An illuminated low power scope like a 1-4 or 1.25-4 is really all you need and will be better for actual hunting distance than a 3-9 or above since you can get targeted on your game faster at a lower power. An Aimpoint or Eotech is far from a bad choice either and an M14 setup like this is a great general setup to me for not just hunting but wen when the shit hits the fan and it's probably going to soon enough.



Hell, the entire post is excellent


Now only if this guy could learn to type.




Link Posted: 3/25/2009 4:08:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lympago:
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
Good stuff here


Originally Posted By Lympago:

An illuminated low power scope like a 1-4 or 1.25-4 is really all you need and will be better for actual hunting distance than a 3-9 or above since you can get targeted on your game faster at a lower power. An Aimpoint or Eotech is far from a bad choice either and an M14 setup like this is a great general setup to me for not just hunting but wen when the shit hits the fan and it's probably going to soon enough.



Hell, the entire post is excellent


Now only if this guy could learn to type.






Speel check is your friend.
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 4:48:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lympago:
The pistol grip to traditional stock thing is all preference, but an M14 in a painted usgi fiberglass is closer to looking and handling like a traditional hunting rifle. If that matters. A tuned M14 trigger is a damn nice trigger too, and not expensive to have a good smith do.
The usgi fiberglass is a very light stock and one of the best choices to me for someone wanting to setup an M14 in a light hunting setup.

Since most shots aren't going to be out of 100 yards and those that are aren't going to likely be outside 200-300 that you should take, you don't need the mother of all scopes to have a good hunting optic and keep your weight down.
An illuminated low power scope like a 1-4 or 1.25-4 is really all you need and will be better for actual hunting distance than a 3-9 or above since you can get targeted on your game faster at a lower power. An Aimpoint or Eotech is far from a bad choice either and an M14 setup like this is a great general setup to me for not just hunting but wen the shit hits the fan and it's probably going to soon enough.

For example

The LRB M25 is a very nice receiver, but there's alot of versatility in a regular receiver with the various mounts that are out there these days. I own 2 M1A's, a tuned Fullsize and tuned Scout and both are very good shooters, but I would like an LRB myself. If you can't wait or afford one though, there's nothing wrong with an M1A for a good commercial M14.
The best all around, and light setup for what your looking for, while still capable of long range shots is a 18 1/2 GI contour barreled M14/M1A in a usgi fiberglass in my opinion. There light, fast and handy.
How you set it up, is up to you.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk4/lookyrighthere/100_0194.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk4/lookyrighthere/100_0167.jpg


Oooooh Yeaaaaah. Um bow bow chick chica chichaaaaaaaa
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 8:21:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TNhick:
Get the book "m14 owners guide" by Scott A. Duff
that will get you started. there is another authers name on the book too, but the above will let you find it.

LRB's m25 is for a scope only rifle in my opinion. If you want to use irons, go with the normal reseaver. There are a couple of good mounts available today, so if you want to mount a scope to a standard reseiver its no problem. Forget about rear lug reseivers. Unless your shooting matches hardcore, plus it is added weight. Get used to the idea of a 10 pound rifle. Mcmillian stocks are top notch, but cost big$ and are heavy with big dementions. USGI fiberglass are good, but tend to get hot quick. I like USGI walnut stocks, but it is hard to beat a good laminated wood stock. You can always paint it if you dont like the lam look.

Look at and handle as many rifles as you can before you buy. There are alot of them out there. Get the book and read the part on how to inspect and buy a rifle.
good luck



Why do you think the M-25 is a scope only rifle?
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 5:37:43 AM EDT
I am digging that fiberglass stocked M14 with the 18.5" barrel!

I have noticed that there are a lot of different muzzle devices out there. Do you find that there is a significant increase in blast/muzzle flash with the 18.5" as opposed to the standard length barrel?

Thanks H20Man for the details of the SAGE.

As for optics, I have learned that I need less magnification for hunting than I once thought I did. I have a 3.5-10 on my bolt gun, and it pretty much stays at 4x. I have a 2x7 compact scope that could be used for this project, but DAMN aren't those Trijicon scopes tasty?

Thank you all for your replies and input. I wish the CMP had warned me that my M1 Garand was the gateway drug towards M14s...
Link Posted: 3/26/2009 6:06:08 AM EDT
Here is my baby. It shoots well without the scope too .





Well worth the money. Plus on a custom build you can get options like the chrome lined barrel.

Link Posted: 3/26/2009 7:55:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JimJones:
Originally Posted By TNhick:
Get the book "m14 owners guide" by Scott A. Duff
that will get you started. there is another authers name on the book too, but the above will let you find it.

LRB's m25 is for a scope only rifle in my opinion. If you want to use irons, go with the normal reseaver. There are a couple of good mounts available today, so if you want to mount a scope to a standard reseiver its no problem. Forget about rear lug reseivers. Unless your shooting matches hardcore, plus it is added weight. Get used to the idea of a 10 pound rifle. Mcmillian stocks are top notch, but cost big$ and are heavy with big dementions. USGI fiberglass are good, but tend to get hot quick. I like USGI walnut stocks, but it is hard to beat a good laminated wood stock. You can always paint it if you dont like the lam look.

Look at and handle as many rifles as you can before you buy. There are alot of them out there. Get the book and read the part on how to inspect and buy a rifle.
good luck



Why do you think the M-25 is a scope only rifle?


I am not a big fan of optics on the m14. That being said, I think the xm25 using the Brookfield style mount is as good as it gets for optics on the m14. The one differance between the m14 with a brookfield style mount, and LRB's m25 reseiver, is with the brookfield mount you can still use iron sites to some extent.
One more thing. I am a big fan of the stripper clip guide on the m14. You do not have this option on the LRB m25.
Personally, even if I did intend to use a scope most of the time on a m14, I would go with the more traditional brookfield style mount on a m14 reseiver.
That being said, LRB makes there m25 reseiver for folks who think different from me. There is also the sage, and some rail jobs for people who like that stuff. Not saying there is anything wrong with those set-ups, but there not for me.
Answer your question?

Link Posted: 3/26/2009 11:46:16 PM EDT
IMHO, this is the way to go. SAI loaded. good bang for your buck. Drop the optics deal until you can shoot very good with irons. They are good to 500 yds. on man size targets. Very fun to shoot. Proven in battle and still one hell of a rifle.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/M1AJAS/PA290086.jpg
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 4:37:32 PM EDT
I too love the irons of the M-14 and in general find it more fun to shoot irons. That being said I don’t think you can get the full potential out of the rifle with just irons. So I think it would be advantageous to have both. jmho.

TNhick: Do you have or have you used a LRB M-25?
I plan on using on of their M-25’s on my next build but one of my concerns was the “usability” of the iron sights.
I posed this exact question on here a couple of month ago and everybody that had one said that I would have no worries with it.

The reason I have this concern is a few years ago I experimented with a SEI mount and was disappointed with the field of view using the irons with the mount attached.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:14:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JimJones:
I too love the irons of the M-14 and in general find it more fun to shoot irons. That being said I don’t think you can get the full potential out of the rifle with just irons. So I think it would be advantageous to have both. jmho.

TNhick: Do you have or have you used a LRB M-25?
I plan on using on of their M-25’s on my next build but one of my concerns was the “usability” of the iron sights.
I posed this exact question on here a couple of month ago and everybody that had one said that I would have no worries with it.

The reason I have this concern is a few years ago I experimented with a SEI mount and was disappointed with the field of view using the irons with the mount attached.


No. I recently bought a pair of m14sa LRB reseivers, but do not have them barreled yet. I also have two older Springfields.

I have not handled a LRB m25 to date. Look at the photo's of lokifox's m25 above. You can clearly see that with the scope mounted the iron sites are not usable. If the scope was removed, and the mount left in place, you would have use of Irons.
One other thing to consider. If you ever want to paticipate in NRA service rifle competition, you cannot use a rifle built on a m25 reseiver. This may not be a big deal at this point, but at some time this may be something you would like to try, even just for fun.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 4:36:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TNhick:

If you ever want to participate in NRA service rifle competition, you cannot use a rifle built on a m25 receiver.


I think the rules of competition also exclude rifles with barrels shorter than 22.0"...
This makes no scene because our military is currently using MK14s with 18.0"
barrels in a real life life and death competition...

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 5:44:04 AM EDT
I think they'd let you use whatever you bring. Whether you get to keep official score or not is another issue.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 11:15:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
Originally Posted By TNhick:

If you ever want to participate in NRA service rifle competition, you cannot use a rifle built on a m25 receiver.


I think the rules of competition also exclude rifles with barrels shorter than 22.0"...
This makes no scene because our military is currently using MK14s with 18.0"
barrels in a real life life and death competition...



You are correct on the barrel length
After the 94 AWB they did change the rules to allow the use of m14 clones that did not have a bayonet lug on the flash suppressor.
Even with the limited use of mk14's by todays millitary, I do not think there will be a rule change concerning barrel length.
Look at the m16/ar15 platform as an example. To be legal for match use the barrel needs to be 20 inches. I would guess that 20 inch barreled m16's are uncommon in todays deployed millitary.
Link Posted: 3/29/2009 6:59:16 AM EDT
They should allow carbines. They would only be at a disadvantage anyways.
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