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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 10/18/2020 12:24:43 PM EST
So I have a PVS-14, and am looking to add a thermal to my selection. For general use, what would you recommend?

I am looking at the iRay MH25 or a COTI, and obviously there are pros and cons to both, but I have no practical experience with either device.

If I get the iRay, I'm going to need to get a bridge to run it with my PVS-14. However, if I upgrade to duals in the future, the COTI will be just as compatible as it was with the 14.

The COTI is much cheaper than the iRay, but in terms of effectiveness how does it compare (i.e. detection range/resolution)?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 12:36:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 12:59:30 PM EST
Thermal is used primarily as a means of detection. The COTI strips this down pretty far where most are using it in outline mode to simply light up possible threats. The benefit is that you don't lose out on utilizing the capabilities of dual tube night vision.

With the MH25 you're saving a little weight and slimming down the package vs hanging a COTI off the front of another device. You're also getting a fully functional thermal output capable of both alert-style notification and fine feature detail resolution, the ability to selectively zoom in an out on an image, picture-in-picture, etc. The downside is that when paired with a PVS14 you're using a dual tube system with the navigational capabilities of a monocular.

If you aren't already using dual tube NV, I don't think I'd go with the COTI because the main benefit of the COTI vs. MH25 is it preserves your ability to navigate and generally function with a true dual tube system.
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 1:34:10 PM EST
Tagging and following along.....
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 11:05:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DirtyHandsRob:
Tagging and following along.....
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Check out my update in the Coti deal thread. The Coti seems to be more sensitive to where your gain(contrast) is set. I changed it to manual mode and set my own gain. Much much better than autogain.
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 11:47:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2020 11:48:23 PM EST by skeebinz]
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Originally Posted By ARShooter91:


Check out my update in the Coti deal thread. The Coti seems to be more sensitive to where your gain(contrast) is set. I changed it to manual mode and set my own gain. Much much better than autogain.
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Glad you were able to figure it out.  I was kind of in the same boat with not really loving the COTI but after adjusting it to the settings you mentioned it is significantly better.

I have used a breach and with it in conjunction with a PVS-14 it just isn’t the same as the COTI.  I prefer the fusion.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 12:00:13 AM EST

The narrow set of circumstances that a COTI fills better than an MTM can be measured in pubic hair widths. If you are looking at buying a COTI out of your checking account those circumstances aren't a concern that you need to factor in. Not even in Rainbow-6 fantasy camp.

Any bridge mounted MTM smokes COTI capability in the overwhelming majority of applications. The MH25 is running pretty close to the top of the hill in image quality against the currently available MTM offerings and the PiP is very handy in a bridged configuration. immediately being able shift your view to the magnified window without any control input is a "YUGE" leg up.

If you have cash and could have both sitting at home and not feel any pinch, I'd say wth, by all means go buy both.

If you're looking at just one, a bridged dual band system with a -14 & MTM of some type is the more useful tool for most.

Preemptively for the inevitable fanboi, Yes, I've had both

Link Posted: 10/19/2020 2:22:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By dzhitshard:


The narrow set of circumstances that a COTI fills better than an MTM can be measured in pubic hair widths. If you are looking at buying a COTI out of your checking account those circumstances aren't a concern that you need to factor in. Not even in Rainbow-6 fantasy camp.

Any bridge mounted MTM smokes COTI capability in the overwhelming majority of applications. The MH25 is running pretty close to the top of the hill in image quality against the currently available MTM offerings and the PiP is very handy in a bridged configuration. immediately being able shift your view to the magnified window without any control input is a "YUGE" leg up.

If you have cash and could have both sitting at home and not feel any pinch, I'd say wth, by all means go buy both.

If you're looking at just one, a bridged dual band system with a -14 & MTM of some type is the more useful tool for most.

Preemptively for the inevitable fanboi, Yes, I've had both

View Quote


Bridged systems add cost, weight, and still won't fusion no matter how hard you try.

Plus how about apples to apples.....$3k COTI for thermal detection (oh did I mention fusion) out to a few hundred yards?

Or....$5k+ bridged mh25 system that is still a 1x device with a nice new core with a nice sharp image?


If someone is considering the COTI as their only thermal then no...I would not recommend it. You really need a handheld scanner/scope as well. But even the mh25 should have a higher mag scanner/scope to pair with it.


Link Posted: 10/19/2020 7:21:36 AM EST
If you wanted to use the thermal as a scanner, the iray, or something similar would be a better choice.  If you wanted to use a thermal while still being able to navigate under nods, while approaching a target(pigs) coti is probably a little better.

The first will provide you hands down better thermal image. I generally use a dedicated scanner for that.

The second would allow you to navigate towards the pigs, without ever having to take your eyes off of them. The image is not near the same quality. But if you’ve already confirmed they are pigs, it doesn’t really matter.

I tried bridging 14/breach. Didn’t work the way I wanted it to. Iray appears to be much better so maybe it would work better?

Killing pigs is my only frame of reference, so if that didn’t apply to you ignore what I say.

@txzen has a pretty sweet setup that he uses, maybe he can chime in
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 8:49:00 AM EST
Thanks for the input - I think I'm definitely leaning towards the MH25.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 9:27:52 AM EST
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Originally Posted By madbarbarian87:


Bridged systems add cost, weight, and still won't fusion no matter how hard you try.

Plus how about apples to apples.....$3k COTI for thermal detection (oh did I mention fusion) out to a few hundred yards?

Or....$5k+ bridged mh25 system that is still a 1x device with a nice new core with a nice sharp image? . . .


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Originally Posted By madbarbarian87:
Originally Posted By dzhitshard:


The narrow set of circumstances that a COTI fills better than an MTM can be measured in pubic hair widths. If you are looking at buying a COTI out of your checking account those circumstances aren't a concern that you need to factor in. Not even in Rainbow-6 fantasy camp.

Any bridge mounted MTM smokes COTI capability in the overwhelming majority of applications. The MH25 is running pretty close to the top of the hill in image quality against the currently available MTM offerings and the PiP is very handy in a bridged configuration. immediately being able shift your view to the magnified window without any control input is a "YUGE" leg up.

If you have cash and could have both sitting at home and not feel any pinch, I'd say wth, by all means go buy both.

If you're looking at just one, a bridged dual band system with a -14 & MTM of some type is the more useful tool for most.

Preemptively for the inevitable fanboi, Yes, I've had both



Bridged systems add cost, weight, and still won't fusion no matter how hard you try.

Plus how about apples to apples.....$3k COTI for thermal detection (oh did I mention fusion) out to a few hundred yards?

Or....$5k+ bridged mh25 system that is still a 1x device with a nice new core with a nice sharp image? . . .





These statements ignore the fact that the COTI also adds 6+ oz to the helmet in addition to the existing minimum 12oz of a -14. A bridged MH25 is 4-5 oz more weight on paper but it also offsets the weight instead of stacking it all on one side of the helmet.

COTI has 1/3 the detection range and image quality within the same ranges of a MH25. It also misses the PiP capability of the MH25 that provides a constant inlaid magnified image.

Any sittuation where a MH25 would require an additional stand alone scanner would obviously require the same for a COTI.



Link Posted: 10/19/2020 9:30:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2020 9:34:52 AM EST by chase45]
I really love my COTI

No experience with the other mentioned device

Not sure which way I would roll with a 14 though. I think the COTI shines with dual systems as mentioned above

Link Posted: 10/19/2020 10:36:25 AM EST
That is an interesting video regarding the conversation at hand. I appreciate it being added to the discussion.

All the clutter and the false positives displayed in the field and tree line clips in that video are exactly why a lot of people who have access to a COTI don't actually employ it outside of a narrow set of circumstances.

In my experience what is depicted in the video is one of the cleaner environments that produces better image feedback than many. The negatives of that device get a lot more prominent when you get an area with a lot of irregular shaped rocks, concrete debris, and certain foliage conditions. You can make it less prominent to a degree but here are no magic settings that eliminate it.



Link Posted: 10/19/2020 12:13:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dzhitshard:
That is an interesting video regarding the conversation at hand. I appreciate it being added to the discussion.

All the clutter and the false positives displayed in the field and tree line clips in that video are exactly why a lot of people who have access to a COTI don't actually employ it outside of a narrow set of circumstances.

In my experience what is depicted in the video is one of the cleaner environments that produces better image feedback than many. The negatives of that device get a lot more prominent when you get an area with a lot of irregular shaped rocks, concrete debris, and certain foliage conditions. You can make it less prominent to a degree but here are no magic settings that eliminate it.



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What do you define as a narrow set of circumstances? My use of the COTI is walking or driving around using a single PVS14. I keep the COTI on almost the entire time (with the battery pack) and have no issues navigating or detecting. I use a Pulsar XP50 and bring it up to my open eye to investigate hotspots further.

In my experience the video depicted average conditions and a good representation of what a COTI does.  The "false positives" in the video were minor and did not detract from the detection capabilities. I guess I don't understand what else you would need? Quickly scan an area, see hotspots, investigate further.



Link Posted: 10/19/2020 2:16:12 PM EST
What do you define as a narrow set of circumstances?"

Specific assault scenarios.

I use my -14/MH25 bridge the same way you're describing. If I'm in a vehicle with glass I can rotate the MH25 up, or just squint if it's a short move, & can drive under i2 just like you. If its a buggy with no glass both devices are down in position, powered on & I'm scooting along using both at the same time. If the buggy has got a windscreen but no door glass I tend to slow down the rate of travel and scan out the sides by continuously swiveling my head. etc etc

"I keep the COTI on almost the entire time (with the battery pack) and have no issues navigating or detecting. I use a Pulsar XP50 and bring it up to my open eye to investigate hotspots further."

I leave my thermal running all the time while I'm moving and I detect and navigate fine too. I just don't have to reach for a scanner because inside of a couple hundred yards I've got little problem ID'ng things with the magnified PiP of the 640 image on the MH25. I can't say I had that experience with a COTI. I had a lot of indecipherable blobs at modest distances like seen in the field vids above. If you're hunting hogs in something like a dry peanut field etc it may not be a big issue but it'll get a lot worse when there are rocks, concrete debris, stumps etc that hold heat and you have to raise a scanner every few feet.

"In my experience the video depicted average conditions and a good representation of what a COTI does."

Exactly, and that's the problem.

The MH25 itself isn't a flawless device. It's just a better device for most uses that average people encounter.
If a user had fat pockets, already owned dual tubes, and E-COTI were available with a larger area of coverage it'd probably be a little more worthy comparison. Lot of IFs in that that weren't listed in the OP though.

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