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Posted: 3/6/2006 9:14:29 PM EDT
Hi guys,

I am just about done with my 9mm AR SBR build. My next toy will most definately be a supressor for my new rifle.

My question is: If I thread the barrel on my 10/22 to the same pattern as my AR 9mm, will the can do anything?

I figured there will be an extra .067" of space on each side of the bullet as compared to the 9mm.

Obviously I would use subsonic .22 ammo, and obviously it will not be as nice as a dedicated .22 can, but would the can make it any quieter.

Has anyone ever done this??
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 12:41:43 AM EDT
I've used my 9mm(Gemtech Vortex) can on my 10/22 on a couple of occasions and it did a fair job, but I wouldn't use it as a dedicated .22 can.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 3:42:46 AM EDT
9mm can, nothing. I use a .45 subgun can on a .22 and it works great! What it looses in extra exit hole diameter, it makes up for with internal volume.

It sounds pretty good on the bolt-action too.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 4:55:33 AM EDT
You can always go down in caliber, but obviously not up.

I would't use a .223 through a 9mm can, though.

I see lot's of people with suppressed Uzis use their 9mm or .45 can with a .22 conversion. It works pretty well!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:30:35 AM EDT
Sweet, thanks for all the info guys.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:42:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ-75Jeff:
You can always go down in caliber, but obviously not up.



Bullshit, nothing a long drillbit wont solve.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:50:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 3:05:16 PM EDT
I have a 9mm can (all steel) & I blast the shit out of it w/5.56

No Prob!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 3:06:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 5:34:38 PM EDT
Not good idea. The manufacturer will not allow this under warrantee. Plus, if a smaller bullet is deflected, it can hit the in side of the can and cause damage. Besides less suppression of noise. The suppressor also acts as a barrel and can increase accuracy, a larger diameter hole does not align the bullet and also can cause it to be less accurate due to different air quality and pressure around it, could cause it to shift to the side.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 11:04:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MGHenry:
Not good idea. The manufacturer will not allow this under warrantee. Plus, if a smaller bullet is deflected, it can hit the in side of the can and cause damage. Besides less suppression of noise. The suppressor also acts as a barrel and can increase accuracy, a larger diameter hole does not align the bullet and also can cause it to be less accurate due to different air quality and pressure around it, could cause it to shift to the side.



Anyone have first hand experience with this?
I was thinking about getting a 5.56 can and use it on the P22 as well...

Diesel
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 11:36:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 11:39:34 AM EDT by TheRedGoat]
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:31:53 PM EDT
Thanks Red Goat.

Looks like I will be purchasing a 9mm can next. Now what manufacturer?
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:19:48 PM EDT
gem tech, swr, SRT, AWC, and AAC are some good ones to check up on.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:36:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 7:53:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By MGHenry:





The larger volume of the 9mm can will suppress equally, if not better than, a 22LR can. I own a 22LR can and a 9mm can. Observers cannot tell the difference in noise levels in blindfold testing.



TRG



did they live long enough to give a favorable report...

WTF?.. just odd.. "hey you let me put this blind fold on you and let me know if you hear my gun go off.. " sorry just had to do it...
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 8:49:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 8:50:25 PM EDT by Tite_Shot_VA]
putting a 5.56 can on a P22? Holy moley that would be off balance, I am waiting for my form to clear on my 5.56 can and it weights more than my fully loaded P22 with my 22 can attached. Besides the fact that you probably couldn't see the sights unless you aim thru the can. I am sure someone has done it but seems kinda silly, would make for some funny pictures though!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:18:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By MGHenry:
Not good idea.





I do it all the time. It works jsut fine. .22 in a 9mm can is my main setup on a RR M16 with a 7.5" 22LR dedicated upper.


The manufacturer will not allow this under warrantee.


My manufacturer warrantees my can for anything that I run through it. From 22LR to .308.




Plus, if a smaller bullet is deflected, it can hit the in side of the can and cause damage.




Deflected? By what?





Besides less suppression of noise.




The larger volume of the 9mm can will suppress equally, if not better than, a 22LR can. I own a 22LR can and a 9mm can. Observers cannot tell the difference in noise levels in blindfold testing.




The suppressor also acts as a barrel and can increase accuracy,




There is a concept called 'freebore boost' but that is not what you are describing. the suppressor baffles do not touch the bullet. Nothing in the can comes in to contact with the round, unless you are speaking of the old-style 'wipes' in some pistol cans. they are not very common these days, and would not touch a smaller caliber round.




a larger diameter hole does not align the bullet and also can cause it to be less accurate due to different air quality and pressure around it, could cause it to shift to the side.




What?? Does not align the bullet? the suppressor does not, at anytime, come in to contact with the round. Air quality and pressure is based on the desgin of the can, and does have some effect on bullet stability, but that effect is negligible on a smaller round, like the 22LR.

Talk to PHD in the M16 forum. He will set you straight.

TRG



If you believe my interpretations are not correct, then why don't all manufacturers produce the same diameter hole for all calibers? Such as 45cal, then all you need to do is buy one can for all calibers, run your 22lr in it, 25,32,380,9mm etc...I suppose all the suppressor manufacturers are fools because they go through testing and R&D, etc... to get the best sound suppression..by utilizing different diameters/caliber holes. Try putting the manufacturers recommended liquid/grease in a dry can for extra suppression-which is recommended when suppression needs to be its best-then put your ear to your small caliber fired through a larger hole. If you and your counterparts can not tell the difference in sound suppression and understand the law of physics, you do not really know what a truely correct suppression is and comprehend decibel reduction. You need to read more......

GEEE..I guess after 28 yrs in the NFA business and owning dozens of cans, a person can collect information direct from manfacturers, testing, experiencing and visually seeing cans damaged by your suggestions.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:31:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR_DIESEL:

Originally Posted By MGHenry:
Not good idea. The manufacturer will not allow this under warrantee. Plus, if a smaller bullet is deflected, it can hit the in side of the can and cause damage. Besides less suppression of noise. The suppressor also acts as a barrel and can increase accuracy, a larger diameter hole does not align the bullet and also can cause it to be less accurate due to different air quality and pressure around it, could cause it to shift to the side.



Diesel

Anyone have first hand experience with this?
I was thinking about getting a 5.56 can and use it on the P22 as well...


A 5.56 can and 22lr are exchangable when 22lr is fired through a 5.56 can, the 5.56 can probably will not function well if at all on the 22lr, at least for cycling the gun. It can also be cumbersome on a small frame pistol. Some cans can do both but not equally well, you will be disappointed. Call Gemtech for a can that has the volume for 5.56, perhaps not sustained fire, and is functionable on a pistol.

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:50:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 9:24:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By MGHenry:

If you believe my interpretations are not correct, then why don't all manufacturers produce the same diameter hole for all calibers? Such as 45cal, then all you need to do is buy one can for all calibers, run your 22lr in it, 25,32,380,9mm etc...I suppose all the suppressor manufacturers are fools because they go through testing and R&D, etc... to get the best sound suppression..by utilizing different diameters/caliber holes. Try putting the manufacturers recommended liquid/grease in a dry can for extra suppression-which is recommended when suppression needs to be its best-then put your ear to your small caliber fired through a larger hole. If you and your counterparts can not tell the difference in sound suppression and understand the law of physics, you do not really know what a truely correct suppression is and comprehend decibel reduction. You need to read more......

GEEE..I guess after 28 yrs in the NFA business and owning dozens of cans, a person can collect information direct from manfacturers, testing, experiencing and visually seeing cans damaged by your suggestions.



I am not here to try and change your mind. I am here to let the new-guys see the truth, not your suppositions. The larger the 'overbore' of the suppressor, the more unsuppressed gases that escape. I'll say again, suppressors do NOT act like barrels.

As for oil/water/grease in a can, this is not a 'lubricating' effect. It is a heat transfer principle. the oil/grease/water provides additional thermal mass to be convectively heated by the escaping gasses from the round.

The question was simple, Can a 22LR be suppressed by a 9mm can. the answer is YES. I have done it, and it works just fine.

TRG

PS. the warrior weighed more than my P22, and I did have to use a 'two eye open' shooting style to be effectively accurate



Unsuppressed gases make noise, that is why they are captured the best as possible. When using a larger bore the gases escape, therfore noise escapes, that is why a caliber and suppressor hole are very close in diameter...the suppressor bore "acts" as a barrel, the holes in the baffles or cork screw design are slighly larger than the caliber, not the same, the suppressor does not become a "gun barrel", it is a barrel (tube) due to the stacking of baffles, it makes a tube or barrel with a slightly larger diameter. The bullets do not run along the inside of the suppressor as they do in a gun barrel but through the suppressor "barrel" of a slightly larger hole diameter, capturing gases. The bullet forces the gases into the baffles therfore capturing the gas and therfore the sound. There is a difference between a gun barrel and a suppressor barrel..perhaps we agree? As for the liquid in a suppressor, I did not say it was for lubrication, it is for capturing more gases. It is not a heat transfer effect for suppression as you have implied. The soft nature of liquids absorbs gases, therfore captures the gases and does not allow them to escape, also it acts as a sealant against escaping gases, this reduces the noise or lowers "decibels", which is the measurement of a suppressor...it is decibel reduction down from normal decibels levels. A suppressor does three functions to reduce noise..1) capture gases before it leaves the suppressor, 2) capture gases behind the bullet, 3) reduces the bullet speed to under 1100 feet per second-per second(squared) which is the sonic crack reduction. In order for a suppressor to do this the best, it has a "barrel" or hole through it with a slightly larger diameter than the caliber being used, in order to not allow gases to slip by the bullet before being captured in the baffle system, 22lr allows the gases to escape when fired through a 9mm can or any can not designed for it. The best possible suppression is not done, therfore the decibel reduction is not lowered more. Shooting a 22lr through a 9mm can works less effectively and can cause bullet deflection because the gases are not keeping the bullet aligned in the suppressor "barrel", it has a greater chance of deflection due to uneven gas aligning pressure in side the suppressor..simple test..fill a straw with water and blow it out with your mouth, then fill a garden hose of equal length with the same amount of water as in the straw, then blow it with your mouth, obviously the garden hose is not filled completely and the water leaves the hose unevenly. Which is more effective and allows less water deflection? For new guys into suppressors, they should know these facts in order to make a well informed decisions, and perhaps not take a chance of destroying an expensive piece of equipment, also understanding what the true best suppression is about. Having the money to buy multiple cans is also a factor. Unfortunately for some people having the funds for multiple cans can be a problem, therfore shooting through what you can afford does beg the question....22lr through a 9mm can?
Best of luck
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:54:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 6:41:03 AM EDT
Call AWC and ask why they have grease pack suppressors, don't take my word for it. Heat is not the major issue, a factor to control. The blockage of gases hitting the side of the can also reduces sound, another reason to capture the gases. Also ask them plus other reputable manufacturers how a suppressor works, the idea, such as the three I have stated. Don't take my word on it, call them,ask them, read a book on suppressors, apply reason and phyics. Air is part of the gas capturing process, and directive channeling in a suppressor is a must.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:10:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 10:58:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By MGHenry:
Call AWC and ask why they have grease pack suppressors, don't take my word for it. Heat is not the major issue, a factor to control. The blockage of gases hitting the side of the can also reduces sound, another reason to capture the gases. Also ask them plus other reputable manufacturers how a suppressor works, the idea, such as the three I have stated. Don't take my word on it, call them,ask them, read a book on suppressors, apply reason and phyics. Air is part of the gas capturing process, and directive channeling in a suppressor is a must.



AS soon as you wrote 'reduces bullet speed' I knew you were ill informed.

Suppressors work by cooling, not capturing. None of the gas is 'captured', it is simply cooled, reducing its total energy and thereby its speed, its rate of expansion and it likelihood of producing an explosive exit from the suppressor.

But, feel free to continue.

TRG



You use the term "cooling"...bullet speed is determined by the gun powders ability to make a certain pressure amount by its ignition behind the bullet and of course bullet weight. Also the length of the barrel to allow the most gun powder to be burned behind the bullet. Heat is a result of explosion, it is released from the molecular bond changes etc...expansion of the burned gun powder, or the energy released is the movement of the electrons to other valencies in the molecule...the making or breaking of a molecular bond releases energy in the form of heat...the gas contains the heat..capturing or reducing the expansion reduces speed.. shorter barrels have less velocity bullets-same grain used-, reduction of the expansion reduces the sound wave, or movement of gases, which contain the particles which cause the gas movement, which in turn move "air" particles against eachother causing "sound"....thunder is when two air masses meet and have their molecles "hit", or actually repel eachother. Are you saying that a suppressor does not slow down the speed of the bullet, bullet chronometers indicate this, and are you using "heat or temperature", the by-product or result of expansion...simply- the suppressor reduces the outward molecule movement from ignition of the gunpowder, containing it in a captured space or desginated volume which has boundries-the can shell-, heat reduction is the result of stunting the gas expansion or continued molecular travel which in turn is the chain reaction and release of heat. In order to reduce heat or get "cooling", capturing/reducing what is causing the heat, is the goal, reducing expansion of the molecular structures achieves this goal.
Suppressors are not as simple as they sound-no pun intended-, the degree of indepthness into all aspects of reduction of sound, is costly and does make a better suppressor.
Intregrally suppressed weapons, which can have shortened barrels, and holes drilled in the barrel itself to release the pressure into the baffle system, which is behind the bullet, do a better job than attachable cans. More rules and ideas to apply. The bleed off of the pressures and or gases need to be structured properly or additional sounds may arise and the can expanding-hopefully not into oblivian.

your view, please.....this is enlightening, and always great discussion material

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 12:23:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:42:07 PM EDT
223 can not be slowed down below the 1100 ft x2, it will always have the sonic sound to a degree. Do research on what calibers can be suppressed and those which can not. A blanket suppressor does not exist. The so called questions and fragents I have wrote are basics in chemistry and physics...and their principles. Understanding what suppression is about needs more than repeating some one else, unless they have the principles applied. Run a round through a suppressor and also a round through with out a suppressor, put a chronograph to the tests. Pick the proper suppressor and caliber. Certain suppressor designs act as catlysts to slow down a round, like bleeding off pressure in the barrel behind the bullet and a inward air pressure to inhibit the round.

Do you believe the "cooling" function is the only suppression features? or are there other factors?

Another question: The wipe style suppressor...why do you think the wipe was integrated on the end of the suppressor? perhaps to hold something in the can?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:50:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 7:57:13 PM EDT by VinnieBoomBah]
Lets see, the concept of "x2" implies that something is speeding up, like when its falling, or propelled by a rocket motor. Once a bullet exits the bore it is slowing down. Wipes were/are used to hold more gas pressure in the bore for a longer time, not to slow the bullet. Also with inefficient baffles it helps to let the gas "wheeze" (my term, nothing technical ) out a little slower. The Russians use them to help AK style weapons function more reliably. It's not "cooling" that makes suppressors quieter, it's the "slowing" of the expanding gasses. Not the bullet, the gasses. The bullet flight noise is not controlled by the suppressor, but by its velocity. And that is controlled by the powder charge. Suppressors ONLY control the noise created by the expanding gasses, NOT bullet flight noise. IMHO, get your money back on your science education.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 4:32:01 AM EDT
You're right... It's all about slowing the expanding gasses.

Dynamite is LOUD because the gasses from the explosion are supersonic.

Gasses from the exploding cartridge make noise for 2 reasons. The first, but least in the sound is the pop, like uncorking a bottle of champagne. But the bigger reason a gunshot is loud is because of the rapidly expanding gas.

A sound suppressor slows down the expanding gas by trapping the gas in a series of baffles, and containing the resulting "Bang."

Certainly, a cooling effect enhances a suppressors effectiveness. The guy at KAC was reported to drop dry ice shavings into his cans right before they were miked by the gov't in their trials. Dry ice does 2 things... it absorbs heat, and gives off Carbon Dioxide which displaces te Oxygen in the can. Both of these properties reduce the "first round pop."

At the end of the day, the debate about firing .22 through a 9mm can is pointless. Many people do it without problem. Many people claim it's an accident waiting to happen.

Shooting is inherently dangerous. The more you shoot, the more you increase your chances of an accident. Add a suppressor, and your chances go up even more. But.... Do you really increase your odds of a mishap by shooting .22 through a quality 9mm can? I persoanlly doubt it.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:15:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:41:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By CZ-75Jeff:
You're right... It's all about slowing the expanding gasses.

Dynamite is LOUD because the gasses from the explosion are supersonic.

Gasses from the exploding cartridge make noise for 2 reasons. The first, but least in the sound is the pop, like uncorking a bottle of champagne. But the bigger reason a gunshot is loud is because of the rapidly expanding gas.

A sound suppressor slows down the expanding gas by trapping the gas in a series of baffles, and containing the resulting "Bang."

Certainly, a cooling effect enhances a suppressors effectiveness. The guy at KAC was reported to drop dry ice shavings into his cans right before they were miked by the gov't in their trials. Dry ice does 2 things... it absorbs heat, and gives off Carbon Dioxide which displaces te Oxygen in the can. Both of these properties reduce the "first round pop."

At the end of the day, the debate about firing .22 through a 9mm can is pointless. Many people do it without problem. Many people claim it's an accident waiting to happen.

Shooting is inherently dangerous. The more you shoot, the more you increase your chances of an accident. Add a suppressor, and your chances go up even more. But.... Do you really increase your odds of a mishap by shooting .22 through a quality 9mm can? I persoanlly doubt it.



You 'slow' a gas by removing its energy. You remove the energy by cooling it.

Other than that, I agree with your post.

TRG



Great points!! slowing of the expanding gases by a baffle system, and channeling them to work the most proficiently.....this in turn can have a "cooling" effect, or reduction of the electrons from moving fast and randomly, but is not the main suppression. One could argue that cooling is the slowing of the gases and vise versa, but the main objective is slowing the fastly expanding gases and disrupting their pattern/direction which is "noise" reduction.

Carbon dioxide allows less wave length travel, more mass to move.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:54:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VinnieBoomBah:
Lets see, the concept of "x2" implies that something is speeding up, like when its falling, or propelled by a rocket motor. Once a bullet exits the bore it is slowing down. Wipes were/are used to hold more gas pressure in the bore for a longer time, not to slow the bullet. Also with inefficient baffles it helps to let the gas "wheeze" (my term, nothing technical ) out a little slower. The Russians use them to help AK style weapons function more reliably. It's not "cooling" that makes suppressors quieter, it's the "slowing" of the expanding gasses. Not the bullet, the gasses. The bullet flight noise is not controlled by the suppressor, but by its velocity. And that is controlled by the powder charge. Suppressors ONLY control the noise created by the expanding gasses, NOT bullet flight noise. IMHO, get your money back on your science education.



The "x2" means squared as in ft/sec-per/sec.....fast or high velocity. Wipes hold in the gases in order to work with the baffle system. Wheeze is a good term!
With a integral suppressor, release of the expanding gases before the bullet leaves the barrel would slow it down (velocity), also causing less air disturbance, ..less noise also, less collecting of expanding gases for the suppressor etc.....

Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:18:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:25:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 10:29:47 AM EDT by TheRedGoat]
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:47:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By CZ-75Jeff:
You're right... It's all about slowing the expanding gasses.

Dynamite is LOUD because the gasses from the explosion are supersonic.

Gasses from the exploding cartridge make noise for 2 reasons. The first, but least in the sound is the pop, like uncorking a bottle of champagne. But the bigger reason a gunshot is loud is because of the rapidly expanding gas.

A sound suppressor slows down the expanding gas by trapping the gas in a series of baffles, and containing the resulting "Bang."

Certainly, a cooling effect enhances a suppressors effectiveness. The guy at KAC was reported to drop dry ice shavings into his cans right before they were miked by the gov't in their trials. Dry ice does 2 things... it absorbs heat, and gives off Carbon Dioxide which displaces te Oxygen in the can. Both of these properties reduce the "first round pop."

At the end of the day, the debate about firing .22 through a 9mm can is pointless. Many people do it without problem. Many people claim it's an accident waiting to happen.

Shooting is inherently dangerous. The more you shoot, the more you increase your chances of an accident. Add a suppressor, and your chances go up even more. But.... Do you really increase your odds of a mishap by shooting .22 through a quality 9mm can? I persoanlly doubt it.



You 'slow' a gas by removing its energy. You remove the energy by cooling it.

Other than that, I agree with your post.

TRG



+1

Take a CO2 canister and heat it up a few hundred degrees. Stay a safe distance because its going to blow up. Now take one and freeze it. The pressure will be MUCH lower. Its the same concept. Hot gasses are at higher pressure. Baffles slow the escape of the gasses, allowing more contact time for the gasses to cool. coolant (or ablative, like water, grease, etc) boils off at high heat, causing the gasses to cool through evaporative cooling. Its the same concept used by those porch coolers out west. Spray a fine mist and it will evaporate instantly (due to the low humidity) and cool the surrounding air, without anyone getting wet. Outdoor AC.

The real science behind silencers is improving efficency. Baffle designs that allow effective suppression in smaller packages. A large enough suppressor will work fine without baffles, it just wont be efficent.

Try building a insulated box and putting your gun barrel in it. shoot through it. It will reduce the sound alot and be a legal non-NFA suppressor because its not fesible to mount a crate on your weapon.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:09:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:29:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bp_968:

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By CZ-75Jeff:
You're right... It's all about slowing the expanding gasses.

Dynamite is LOUD because the gasses from the explosion are supersonic.

Gasses from the exploding cartridge make noise for 2 reasons. The first, but least in the sound is the pop, like uncorking a bottle of champagne. But the bigger reason a gunshot is loud is because of the rapidly expanding gas.

A sound suppressor slows down the expanding gas by trapping the gas in a series of baffles, and containing the resulting "Bang."

Certainly, a cooling effect enhances a suppressors effectiveness. The guy at KAC was reported to drop dry ice shavings into his cans right before they were miked by the gov't in their trials. Dry ice does 2 things... it absorbs heat, and gives off Carbon Dioxide which displaces te Oxygen in the can. Both of these properties reduce the "first round pop."

At the end of the day, the debate about firing .22 through a 9mm can is pointless. Many people do it without problem. Many people claim it's an accident waiting to happen.

Shooting is inherently dangerous. The more you shoot, the more you increase your chances of an accident. Add a suppressor, and your chances go up even more. But.... Do you really increase your odds of a mishap by shooting .22 through a quality 9mm can? I persoanlly doubt it.



You 'slow' a gas by removing its energy. You remove the energy by cooling it.

Other than that, I agree with your post.

TRG



+1

Take a CO2 canister and heat it up a few hundred degrees. Stay a safe distance because its going to blow up. Now take one and freeze it. The pressure will be MUCH lower. Its the same concept. Hot gasses are at higher pressure. Baffles slow the escape of the gasses, allowing more contact time for the gasses to cool. coolant (or ablative, like water, grease, etc) boils off at high heat, causing the gasses to cool through evaporative cooling. Its the same concept used by those porch coolers out west. Spray a fine mist and it will evaporate instantly (due to the low humidity) and cool the surrounding air, without anyone getting wet. Outdoor AC.

The real science behind silencers is improving efficency. Baffle designs that allow effective suppression in smaller packages. A large enough suppressor will work fine without baffles, it just wont be efficent.

Try building a insulated box and putting your gun barrel in it. shoot through it. It will reduce the sound alot and be a legal non-NFA suppressor because its not fesible to mount a crate on your weapon.



Baffle system or what ever is used, such as screen, steel wool, tennis shoe ilets(Ciener), stell srub pads, cones, wipes, liquids, cork screw design, washers, perforated metal, I have seen and own many,
The "cooling" theory is not valid, heat is a by product, result, etc.. after ignition and effecting the gases, gases are also , heat is a by product of chemically changing bonds of molecules, in their outer valence shells, carbon chains are affected and their attached elements. Sound is from the movement of air, the "air" is moved by molecular movement and electron shift, which is done by chemical reactions such as explosion.
If the "cooling" theory is the only explaination, then why..without heat, except for the hot air in the "cooling thoery" adimists, can sound be suppressed in a sound proof room? Perhaps the air molecules are trapped or reguided into a material which does not let it escape, much like a firearm suppressor. A sound can be made as loud as a gun shot but without the use of "heat" and it still can be muffled without "cooling down" as pertaining to heat. What about compressing nitrogen, it will form a liquid under pressure, no heat, actually the opposite, it can get colder upon this event. The gases were "cooled down", but nor were they hot to start with. If "cooling down" removes the "heat", tell me where the heat came from and also where it went, or how it was disapated...perhaps your cooling down theory could also mean the slowing of molecules(components therof), such as the nitrogen into liquid form, heat is a sensation not denaturing as in a burn.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:34:51 PM EDT
"Wipes" are a cheep but problematic solution for suppression. Some gas operated weapons need the increased pressure that they generate for reliable operation with subsonic ammunition. They also degrade accuracy because the bullet must pass through them, and on anything other then a "bullet hose" that is a bad thing. The main reason that you don't see them on domestic suppressors is an ATF ruling that makes that little elastomer (spl?) disk a registered part of the suppressor. Although this site says they have changed the rulings.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:46:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:51:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MGHenry:
A sound can be made as loud as a gun shot but without the use of "heat" and it still can be muffled without "cooling down" as pertaining to heat. What about compressing nitrogen, it will form a liquid under pressure, no heat, actually the opposite, it can get colder upon this event. The gases were "cooled down", but nor were they hot to start with. If "cooling down" removes the "heat", tell me where the heat came from and also where it went, or how it was disapated...perhaps your cooling down theory could also mean the slowing of molecules(components therof), such as the nitrogen into liquid form, heat is a sensation not denaturing as in a burn.



Heat is relative. If you take nitrogen at room temp and cool it to -300F then by comparison room temp is hot. In reference to the loud sound without heat being muffled the energy tranfer is mechanical rather than thermal. For suppressor purposes that is a completely irrelevant concept unless you plan on having an 8" diameter tube filled with sound deadening foam like they use in recording studios but that wouldn't be all that efficient either.

So, a big +1 to TRG's explanations.

And to answer the original question... Yes, a 9mm can will work on a 22LR. Not as efficiently but very possibly as (or even more) effectively.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:40:36 PM EDT
Interesting, the result of noise is "mechanical", if you are stating molecular outer shell electron bond release, resulting in "gases" as another molecular entity. Another by product of a chemical/catylilic combination. The exchange and or release and replacement of these electrons result in ignition or lighting gun powder, Their is "energy" released is from these bonds breaking and circling another element, the explosion results with physical or mechanical movement of the elements, intern make a higher pressure in the shell casing, then expelling the bullet. Pressure being the repulsion of similiar charged elements, like a set of magnets when placed to repel each other. Physically or mechanically, the new compounds produced follow out the shell case into the bore then into the suppressor. Note-magnets do not create heat. The product or result of the ignition is both "mechanical" as in element repulsion, not involving "heat" and also energy in the form of heat. Heat being the sensation of the physical movement. In order to have the "thermal" or heat, you must have a mechanical reaction first, then the next step or result is thermal.
A sound deading room stops the air from moving, these are called sound waves, sound waves are simply the movement of air(which has many components) hitting the hair follicles in the ear causing a nerve transmision to the brain(very simple and short explaination).
Suppressing noise is as simple as covering your ears, use ear muffs when shooting. The difference is the sound waves reached your ears, a suppressor stops sound waves internally.
The suppressor mechanically or physically stops the sound waves from leaving the tube by inhibiting the air movement which includes the gases which the ignition made. As in blocking your ears or a sound proof room, no "heat" was involved but suppression occured, physical or mechanical as previously stated. Heat or its sensation is a product of molecular bond shifting...shifting is mechanical/physical, thermal or heat generated(ing) can increase the tendency to release an electron, and does, resulting in more "explosion" or mechanical/physical interaction or movement, heat can amplify the causation of sound, which is what the suppressor is trying to stop. example: striking a match is mechanical and the heat that results is thermal, the heat is secondary. A thermonuclear device, is the electron bondbardment into the nucleus of an element, resulting in fission or the breakup of the bonds releasing energy resulting in heat.
If you are interchanging "cooling" with reduction of expansion of noise producing waves derived from bond shifting, we probably are on the same path. A suppressor changes the direction of the air mass(gases also), or tries to capture it in a tangled mess as in a steel mesh packing, or cones-crving to a dead wall....it creates a mechanical or physical barrier/change of direction to the movement of air, intern it looses energy by resistance to movement against other air molecules, all of this causes the release of heat and then its eventual absorption or complete dissapation. Gases in a confined area can cause friction, resulting in the release of "heat" but it is still a physical/mechanical beginning. To cool down a gas the energy is arrested by its capture or diversion in a system for this purpose, the other way is by diluting it or let it escape into the atmosphere.

I believe we all have answers, perhaps from different paths, but ending in the same conception, and overlap.

We should start a suppressor company called"AR15.com Suppressor Co", a company of many minds and make a suppressor which has interchangable internals to change calibers with only one can registered....but the ATF has rules which make even parts a registration requirement. A coffee can with parts loose in it is also a suppressor to the ATF, how about
a coffee can with different caliber suppressor parts and all you need to do is pick out and place the proper pieces in the can and screw the ends on it.

Excellent expertise on this board....
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:53:03 PM EDT
MGHenry - Yes, thermal energy is precluded by mechanical. I was trying to state that noises like clapping your hands are for arguments sake is only mechanical but for explosion noise we have to factor in the thermal expansion as a huge factor. Your last post has cleared things up on your previous explanations. Essentially you and TRG are thinking the same but walking down a different road to get there.

Anyway, I think we should do the coffee can suppressor. It would be like an Erector set for big kids. So now my new curiosity is, "How quiet would a suppressor with an steel inner tube and an aluminum outer tube filled with thermal grease between them be?" That should enhance both the thermal and mechanical properties. I think it could be done with out adding too much to the diameter or weight.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:12:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nrode:
MGHenry - Yes, thermal energy is precluded by mechanical. I was trying to state that noises like clapping your hands are for arguments sake is only mechanical but for explosion noise we have to factor in the thermal expansion as a huge factor. Your last post has cleared things up on your previous explanations. Essentially you and TRG are thinking the same but walking down a different road to get there.

Anyway, I think we should do the coffee can suppressor. It would be like an Erector set for big kids. So now my new curiosity is, "How quiet would a suppressor with an steel inner tube and an aluminum outer tube filled with thermal grease between them be?" That should enhance both the thermal and mechanical properties. I think it could be done with out adding too much to the diameter or weight.



That's it for me, sports fans. I KNOW that you meant "in theory", but ...
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:20:17 AM EDT
Better get a Form 1 first unless you hold a type 2 SOT.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:58:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nrode:
MGHenry - Yes, thermal energy is precluded by mechanical. I was trying to state that noises like clapping your hands are for arguments sake is only mechanical but for explosion noise we have to factor in the thermal expansion as a huge factor. Your last post has cleared things up on your previous explanations. Essentially you and TRG are thinking the same but walking down a different road to get there.

Anyway, I think we should do the coffee can suppressor. It would be like an Erector set for big kids. So now my new curiosity is, "How quiet would a suppressor with an steel inner tube and an aluminum outer tube filled with thermal grease between them be?" That should enhance both the thermal and mechanical properties. I think it could be done with out adding too much to the diameter or weight.



There is alot of information and design for a suppressor.

Could put a grease zerk on the out side to fill it, instead off putting grease down the hole.
I have three grease pack suppressors and they are quite when filled...messy but good.
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