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Posted: 9/29/2004 6:03:52 PM EST
I am a paranoid armchair commando or mall ninja or whatever and I am looking to equip myself w/ the best short barreled shotgun for indoors/in vehicles CQB. I am willing to do whatever I have to do to get it registered as either a SBS, AOW, or DD. This may be a short handy truck gun to prevent car jacking, or a go to gun for the house in the event I hear something go bump in the night, or in case it is TEOTWAWKI, a weapon to carry in addition to a carbine.

I want a shotty w/ around 12" barrel. It will not have shoulder stock, or at most a top folder, and that is all I know. I am thinking about converting my Mossy marine (maybe w/ a knoxx kit) or perhaps getting a Street sweeper. Anyway, now that the street sweeper is legal to produce again for sale to civilians (though it must still be registered as a DD w/ ATF), perhaps that is a viable option. Are street sweepers reliable? Does their somewhat slow reloading create a big concern? If they are DD can their barrels be sawed off, or do they have to then be registered also/instead as SBS or AOW???

What is their overall weight w/ comprable barrel length?

Also, what is the difference between registering, transferring, and getting approved for a SBS, DD, and AOW?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 6:36:16 PM EST
If anything, I would suggest to stay with a reliable pump action to start, such as an 870.

Vang Comp, and Wilson Combat/Scattergun Tech. do great work on them.

I had a SWD SS/12 many eons ago, and aside from being difficult to load, parts were very difficult to find, and gas blow by, between the cylinder/barrel made it a bit on the annoying side.

Better yet, take a look at the Saiga 12's......the new post-AWB pistol converted ones are GREAT, and along with teh proven AK design, what more can you ask for?


Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
I am a paranoid armchair commando or mall ninja or whatever and I am looking to equip myself w/ the best short barreled shotgun for indoors/in vehicles CQB. I am willing to do whatever I have to do to get it registered as either a SBS, AOW, or DD. This may be a short handy truck gun to prevent car jacking, or a go to gun for the house in the event I hear something go bump in the night, or in case it is TEOTWAWKI, a weapon to carry in addition to a carbine.

I want a shotty w/ around 12" barrel. It will not have shoulder stock, or at most a top folder, and that is all I know. I am thinking about converting my Mossy marine (maybe w/ a knoxx kit) or perhaps getting a Street sweeper. Anyway, now that the street sweeper is legal to produce again for sale to civilians (though it must still be registered as a DD w/ ATF), perhaps that is a viable option. Are street sweepers reliable? Does their somewhat slow reloading create a big concern? If they are DD can their barrels be sawed off, or do they have to then be registered also/instead as SBS or AOW???

What is their overall weight w/ comprable barrel length?

Also, what is the difference between registering, transferring, and getting approved for a SBS, DD, and AOW?

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:01:47 PM EST
Where have you seen these Saiga pistol shotguns??? Do you have some links or something. I guess a guy could just get a saiga and convert it to a registered DD or AOW. Do those weapons take AK folding stocks?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 7:21:29 PM EST
I did alittle research on the web, and it seems that by "converted" you may have meant that a certain number of parts have been switched on the imported sporting shotgun version for domestic parts so that it has less than 10 imported parts to keep w/ some ATF ruling about semi auto weapons or something??? That sentance made about as much sense as the ATF. Anyway, do you have to make your saiga have no more (or less than) 10 imported parts to put magazines in it w/ over 5 round capacity?

Are magazines of over 10 rd capacity available now. What about a drum magazine? That would be sweet.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:34:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 8:59:20 PM EST by MisterSuzuki]
forum.saiga-12.com

Check out the forums there.....plenty of AK action there.

As of yet, we can't import the full pistol gripped version, as it falls under the 1989 Bush Sr ban, and you can convert an eexisting Saiga, with the 10 US parts count.

MMagazines are currently limited to 8 rounds.....but the big issue is that if someone makes a drum, or 10+ magazine, the ATF might make it into a DD, much like the SWD SS/12, Korean USAS 12.

So most are counting on NOT having available anything over 8+ rounds.

I'm waiting forthe SAR show, to pick me up one of these Saiga's 12.....hopefully, someone will have a converted one, I'm too lazy to do it on my own!







Here's a pic of what some have done...





Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
I did alittle research on the web, and it seems that by "converted" you may have meant that a certain number of parts have been switched on the imported sporting shotgun version for domestic parts so that it has less than 10 imported parts to keep w/ some ATF ruling about semi auto weapons or something??? That sentance made about as much sense as the ATF. Anyway, do you have to make your saiga have no more (or less than) 10 imported parts to put magazines in it w/ over 5 round capacity?

Are magazines of over 10 rd capacity available now. What about a drum magazine? That would be sweet.

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:41:46 PM EST
AOW is a $5 transfer tax while a SBS, or DD is a $200 stamp. Go with the AOW. Usually three shots and you can have any length barrel as long as it was manufactured with only a pistol grip. Don't put a stock on it or it turns it into a SBS.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 8:56:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 8:57:57 PM EST by MisterSuzuki]
If you're going the way of a SBR/SBS, then adding a folding stock is fine, after you do your Form 1.

But if you're not, you can't add a folding stock, as shotguns need to be, 26" in overall length, if I'm not mistaken.

Or someone correct me on that, but I'm pretty sure its 26" if a federal gun requirement, much like 16" rifle barrel length, before it besomes an SBR.

$5 AOW is only aapplicable is it was manufactured, from an FFL 07(?) Manufacturer. Otherwise, we have to pay the $200 for your tax stamp.....I think.

But as usual,, I'm probably wrong.....been a while since I had any interest in NFA weapons......just too darn expensive!

SBS is probably the best way to go....and stay away from the SS/12, unless you REALLY want one, to piss off anti's
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:09:54 AM EST
SBS is probably the way to go. I don't know about keeping any NFA weapon in a vehicle though. I hear that the ATF gets a little bit pissy if one gets lost or stolen.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:30:10 AM EST
Its sad that they fume at the thought of us civvies losing an NFA, but couldnt' care less when the FBI loses a van, full of MP5's.

Go figure.......

Car carry.....prolly handgun, rifle/shotguns get too much attention, and with liberal CCW laws across the country, easier to carry!


Originally Posted By joker581:
SBS is probably the way to go. I don't know about keeping any NFA weapon in a vehicle though. I hear that the ATF gets a little bit pissy if one gets lost or stolen.

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:39:46 AM EST
I was recommending an AOW because they are somewhat readily available and cheaper ($5 tax). If your going to manufacture one, then go SBS. Why pay $200 to make an AOW when you can buy it already made? and why pay $200 to make an AOW when you can make a SBS for the same price and have any stock on it you want. I was speaking from the financial standpoint. An AOW is cheaper to buy out right but a SBS could be as cheap. Gunbroker has AOW shotgun for $350. Thats $200 tax+ $150 base price for shottie. I don't know of many shotties you can get new for $150 and then all the work to make the magazine, etc work when shortened.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:40:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 12:41:12 PM EST by MisterSuzuki]
I shot once, and one time only, a "Witness Protection" series shotgun, from Scattergun Technologies (before Wilson Combat), and maybe I was holding it wrong, but it gave me a feeling of instant arthritis.

The inner web of my shooting hand hurt, and I did not like the muzzle flip at all.

If any ranges allow you to rent a shorty, try it out first.

If Vang Comp can subdue a full lenth shotgun, they should try to play around with a SBS.




Originally Posted By ajm1911:
I was recommending an AOW because they are somewhat readily available and cheaper ($5 tax). If your going to manufacture one, then go SBS. Why pay $200 to make an AOW when you can buy it already made? and why pay $200 to make an AOW when you can make a SBS for the same price and have any stock on it you want. I was speaking from the financial standpoint. An AOW is cheaper to buy out right but a SBS could be as cheap. Gunbroker has AOW shotgun for $350. Thats $200 tax+ $150 base price for shottie. I don't know of many shotties you can get new for $150 and then all the work to make the magazine, etc work when shortened.

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:33:58 PM EST
If you are going to go pistol grip only this guy is kinda fun

Serbu Shorty
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 4:12:36 PM EST
Remington 870 chopped to 13.5," Knoxx Copstock folder, Surefire fore end.
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