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Posted: 4/28/2015 3:58:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2015 1:07:38 PM EDT by Snerticus]
I had a squib .357 load today, my first.

Load was 17.5 grains of H110, Starline .357 brass, Extreme 125 grain FP and a Winchester small pistol Magnum primer.
I did not notice any difference in sound, but no recoil.
The gun was frozen. Cylinder would not rotate, trigger was fixed. I didn't know what was happening.
Was able to get the cylinder open finally, after seeing no gap between the forcing cone and the cylinder. Got the cylinder released, and tapped it open..I thought the ejector rod had become loose or unscrewed...

Bullet was just past the cylinder and stuck in the forcing cone.
Shell casing had a glob of partially burned, plasticized powder. Looked like foam from a cheap cushion.
The primer looked odd, almost like a light strike.

Too much happening here that I don't understand.
The unburned powder tells of incomplete combustion. Bad primer or bad crimp.
I lean to not enough crimp. Operator error rather than a bad component.
Came home and read of other crimp-light charge H110 issues. From what I read, H110 is best at or very near max levels, not the lower end of it's thin range where I had loaded it.

I used a light crimp on this load. Much lighter than I usually do. Plated bullets and all.
Should I pull these down or re-crimp? Less then 200 rounds left.
If I pull these down, what press mounted bullet puller should I be looking at. I don't want to trash these bullets just yet.

----------------------

Update->
I found what I think caused the problem.
The strain screw on the mainspring had backed out almost 2 full turns. I removed the grips to clean, as I always do, and checked the screw.
That explains the possible light strike (odd looking primer strike), because IT WAS A LIGHT STRIKE. I was just lucky it didn't happen earlier.
Took the screw out and cleaned the screw and screw hole with brake cleaner. Dried and Blue lok-tite.

I think I got it.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 4:05:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2015 4:05:32 PM EDT by Chris_1522]
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 4:12:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2015 4:13:22 PM EDT by Snerticus]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
I don't like W296 / H110 in .357 Magnum. IMO it's just too finicky. To top it off, my absolute maximum effort 158gr / W296 loads were only 100 fps faster than my 158gr / Power Pistol loads, and used over twice as much powder.

Are you positive that round wasn't undercharged? That's what I would lean towards.
View Quote


Chris_1522,
I'm as sure as I can be. Loaded on a single stage press, every 10th weighed. Eyeballed the loading block with a flashlight before bullet seating.
I'd say all are 17.5 grains. OCD on primer seating and powder charge.



edited to correct poor typing. 17.5 grains not 17.7 grains.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 4:17:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2015 4:19:52 PM EDT by Chris_1522]
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 4:44:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
I don't doubt you.

It certainly could be lack of crimp combined with a minimum-level charge.

Really, 296 is only useful for absolute maximum effort loads in .357 Magnum. I don't think plated bullets, especially in 125gr variety, will work very well for that, either. Mainly because they don't really like to be crimped but also because they can shed their thin jackets (plating) easier.

I don't crimp .357 Magnum at all, but then again I don't use short-bearing-surface 125gr bullets and I don't use W296.

If you want to pull the loads (might not be a bad idea) the hammer pullers work fine too, and are much cheaper. Use them on a hard surface and don't let the hammer rebound (bounce back).

If you go to reload the plated 125s I'd look into a typical pistol powder, like Unique etc. If you can find Power Pistol I'd bet you could have a lot of fun with that.
View Quote


Thanks Chris_1522 for your time.
I'm more about pulling them right now. No confidence in this combination at all.
If the bullet hadn't tied up the cylinder, bad things would have happened. I have to buy a lottery ticket for tonight.
I do have an old Lyman hammer puller somewhere. I haven't used it in decades, but remember what a pain that was.
My collection of powders has grown, so Unique, 2400 and Power Pistol are back on the menu.
This brass is primed with small mag primers though. I'm thinking of pulling the 125grain bullets and going to 158grain coated SWC I have from Bayou.



Link Posted: 4/28/2015 4:50:36 PM EDT
Poor choice of bullet with that powder. A jacketed 158 would be better. Plated bullets are only good for about 1200 to 1400 fps. A full load of H110 would be around 1800 fps. (Hodgdon data) The maximum load of H110 should not be reduced more than 3% . Neck tension is what holds the bullet from moving. The crimp only helps a little. You can shoot your reloads as is, but expect and look for bullet movement in the last rounds remaining in the cylinder.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 5:00:52 PM EDT
X-Treme -
Load Info

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

All of our Hard Cast Lead Bullets are approximately 18 on Brinell, our Cowboy lead bullets are approximately 15 on Brinell.
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 5:02:33 PM EDT
I would use at least 20grains of H110 with 125's and stay away from plated bullets with that powder/bullet weight combo.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 5:22:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 243winxb:
X-Treme -
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 243winxb:
X-Treme -
Load Info

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

All of our Hard Cast Lead Bullets are approximately 18 on Brinell, our Cowboy lead bullets are approximately 15 on Brinell.


Thanks.
I was aware of Xtreme's recommendations, and your post is noted.
Per Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 9th Edition
page 789
125 grain bullets
H110 -17.4grains=1250FPS, 17.9grains=1300FPS
Hornady's data is from an 8" Colt Python

I'm shooting from a 3" S&W.
Quickload gives me 904FPS. I don't own a chronograph yet.

From Xtreme's web pag, as you posted->
"Load Info

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

All of our Hard Cast Lead Bullets are approximately 18 on Brinell, our Cowboy lead bullets are approximately 15 on Brinell. "

My research leading up to using this powder/bullet combination told me it would be safe. Lack of powder choices 5 months ago lead me to a powder I hadn't used before.
I did not jump in, both feet. I loaded 25 and shot them. OK accuracy, mild recoil. Ran off some more. No problems with another 100. And the next 100.
Then today. And different search terms...
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:36:02 PM EDT
Like i said, " You can shoot your reloads as is, but expect and look for bullet movement in the last rounds remaining in the cylinder." As a revolver recoils, the bullets remaining in the cylinder may move forward a little. The last or next to last round may have a bullet forward, part way out of the case. When the primer fires on that round, the bullet jumps out of the case and you have a squib. Light neck tension on only 1 round may do this or all may. The test is, check the oal of the last round remaining in the cylinder after firing the first 4 or 5. Has the oal gotten longer. Hope this help.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:40:17 PM EDT
I love Nosler 158 JHP and 110. I started loading specials with all sorts of plated bullets but they just aren't very "specia". You shouldn't really go above +P loads with the plated bullets. I ran Power Pistol on them and they were fun.

You need to ask yourself how much you are going to shoot the gun and decide if saving a few cents is worth it. Nosler sells the 158's as seconds on SPS and Midway often has deals on non-seconds. I have gotten them both ways. Great bullet and price is competitive enough with plated that I am not going to sweat it.

So, if you really need to use the plated then find PP or bullseye or something like that. Careful with double charges though.

Save the 110 for blackout or magnum loads.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:47:58 PM EDT
No rapid fire, if you shoot them. Make sure each bullet clears the muzzle.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:52:13 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 243winxb:
Like i said, " You can shoot your reloads as is, but expect and look for bullet movement in the last rounds remaining in the cylinder." As a revolver recoils, the bullets remaining in the cylinder may move forward a little. The last or next to last round may have a bullet forward, part way out of the case. When the primer fires on that round, the bullet jumps out of the case and you have a squib. Light neck tension on only 1 round may do this or all may. The test is, check the oal of the last round remaining in the cylinder after firing the first 4 or 5. Has the oal gotten longer. Hope this help.
View Quote


Thanks 243winxb
I honestly do appreciate any eyes and input on my self-made tar baby.
Shooting the balance, one at a time, even crossed my mind. I doubt I'll shoot tomorrow, but I might just to measure the last round.
I have some in front of me, and I can not push the bullet into the case. Tried on a few, pushing the bullet against my desk. No change.

And I'm not bashing Extreme, Starline, Hornady, ect.
This was my choice to load this combination.
I chose poorly.
The powder I used is a better option for top end loading. 20/20 hindsight.
I does not like a reduced load. Full bore or else.
Combined with a bullet with a smaller/shorter bearing surface, and I invited Murphy into my life.

Upside no one was hurt, and my gun is fine.
And even with everything, I still had a nice day shooting.
Just not .357s.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 7:23:51 PM EDT
Back when Winchester used to publish data in those little pamphlets, they listed H110/WW296 and gave powder-specific instructions with that specific powder. Always use heavy crimp and do not reduce powder charge more than 3% from maximum.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 7:59:31 PM EDT
Good news travels fast.
A friend of my called after hearing second-hand my drama today, I told him what happened, and what I intend to do.
Which is single shot the balance of what I loaded.
He said before I do that, I should run the rounds through my crimping die again, and not be too concerned about cutting the jacket.
If you think the crimp is the problem, then crimp it.
Fix what you think is broke.
Made sense to me.
I think I will give this a try. I don't see any downside to this advice.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 8:33:13 PM EDT
From website - "Use a light taper crimp" Most 357 mag seating dies are a roll crimp that may cut into the plating if over done.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 9:31:51 PM EDT
H110 works best with a heavy crimp. Not sure you can do that with plated bullets.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 9:48:17 PM EDT
Plated vs Jacketed bullet Photos
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 10:34:01 AM EDT
H-110 is about a mid to slower burning powder better suited for longer barrels. Your 3'' bbl is kinda short for getting the most out of that powder.

I use it with great results in a 6 1/2'' Blackhawk.

Since you already shot over 225 rounds without a problem, I'd say go ahead and shoot the rest but do it slow fire, making sure each one goes off the way it should. Pulling them would be more trouble than they're worth.

I'm putting my money on a bad primer. It's happened before and it'll happen again with anything mass made.
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 11:03:20 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Forty5Cal:
H-110 is about a mid to slower burning powder better suited for longer barrels. Your 3'' bbl is kinda short for getting the most out of that powder.

I use it with great results in a 6 1/2'' Blackhawk.

Since you already shot over 225 rounds without a problem, I'd say go ahead and shoot the rest but do it slow fire, making sure each one goes off the way it should. Pulling them would be more trouble than they're worth.

I'm putting my money on a bad primer. It's happened before and it'll happen again with anything mass made.
View Quote


Thanks for posting, Forty5Cal,
Over the winter, all I could find was the H110. Not a single other pistol powder. I would take my Hornady hardcover book with me when shopping, and look-up what I could do with the powder actually in front of me. Locally, today, the pistol powders in stock and available is much better.

I've been using W231 recently for mild 3" .44 mag loads, and plan to try it in .357. I like the W231 a lot, but no load data in the Hornady book. I do have Sierra and Speer books at work to check yet.

An afternoon range trip is planned, just to blow off the H110/125gr loads I have left. I want to test for bullet jump/movement and plain get rid of it and start over.

Link Posted: 4/29/2015 12:47:55 PM EDT
Update->
I found what I think caused the problem.
The strain screw on the mainspring had backed out almost 2 full turns. I removed the grips to clean, as I always do, and checked the screw.
That explains the possible light strike (odd looking primer strike), because IT WAS A LIGHT STRIKE. I was just lucky it didn't happen earlier.
Took the screw out and cleaned the screw and screw hole with brake cleaner. Dried and Blue lok-tite.

I think I got it.
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 6:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2015 6:23:24 PM EDT by Forty5Cal]
I'm not so sure. Primers either fire or they don't. Never heard of one only partially firing unless it was bad in the first place.

The tension screw being loose was a definite cause of light strikes but again, I've never heard of a light strike only partially firing the primer.

Glad ya found and fixed that before it fell out. Fire the rest and let us know how it goes.

ETA: W231 will work a lot better in the shorter barrel .357. It's good for medium and a little higher power loads. I use that as well with good results in every pistol I own.
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