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Posted: 8/27/2013 6:11:42 AM EDT
I was asked yesterday to see a stamp for my SBR at a private range. On one hand, it is there range and I have to abide by their rules, on the other hand, it's not their purview to do the BATFE's eyes and ears. I was a little peeved to have to go back to my truck in the rain to get the stamp copy, but it won't keep me from going back, because they were courteous about it. How do you feel about being asked by other than law enforcement for your stamp?
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 6:25:34 AM EDT
I keep my stamp with the can, I've never been asked any where to see it but like you said its there party & if they asked I'd just show it to them.
Now if they wanted to make a copy or somthing crazy like that they could kiss my ass.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 6:38:06 AM EDT
The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.





However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  

He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  

Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        



"Thanks"  

Link Posted: 8/27/2013 7:05:28 AM EDT
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Quoted:
The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  
View Quote

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 7:21:43 AM EDT
It's a "cover your ass" maneuver by the ranges scared of the bogeyman ATF hitting them with some violation if they catch someone shooting an untaxed weapon. Like most things, it's a BS pain in the ass to law-abiding citizens, but it's a minor one and most of all...their range, their rules.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 7:27:12 AM EDT
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Quoted:

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.
View Quote

That's actually not 100% true. If several people got arrested at the range for firing untaxed items and some DA wanted to be a dick or got political pressure from above, the range owner could be criminally charged with creating a private nuisance. Or surrounding property owners could sue for the same. I'd hope they would have a good chance of winning in court, but still...the legal fees alone could be enough to drive them out of business.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 7:49:33 AM EDT
I wish I was able to have them ask so I could ticked off....no FA in the Peoples Republic of IL.
 



ETA: Or cans or SBR for that matter
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 8:05:13 AM EDT
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I wish I was able to have them ask so I could ticked off....no FA in the Peoples Republic of IL.  

ETA: Or cans or SBR for that matter
View Quote

Er, that's not technically true anymore.  .Corp can have FA and plebs with a C&R FFL can have SBR, I think.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus.asp?DocNum=0143&GAID=11&GA=97&DocTypeID=HB&LegID=54706&SessionID=84

Edited to fix my F'd up post.  Not sure why only half posted the first time around, sorry for the confusion.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 8:18:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 8:21:02 AM EDT
I am a RSO and I have never asked anyone. I normally say sweet can or sexy SBR. Sometimes they have no idea what an SBR is. Not my job to make sure it's legal. I am there to make sure no one gets shot.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 9:39:32 AM EDT

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Quoted:





Er, that's not technically true anymore.  .Corp can have FA and plebs can have and, I think.
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Quoted:

I wish I was able to have them ask so I could ticked off....no FA in the Peoples Republic of IL.  



ETA: Or cans or SBR for that matter



Er, that's not technically true anymore.  .Corp can have FA and plebs can have and, I think.
Not quite clear on your message but unless you are class 3 FFL, no dice.

 
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 9:39:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 11:53:07 AM EDT
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Quoted:

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.
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The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.


Unfortunately, they could be. If an incident were to occur and someone was hurt, they could be held criminally liable for negligence in allowing by inaction an illegal firearm at their range. They could also be held liable in a civil suit as well.

They're just doing their due diligence to keep things legal. If I owned a range, I'd want to see a Form 1 or Form 4 for every Title II that walked in...
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 12:02:41 PM EDT
I've been asked if I have it, never wanted to see it though.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 12:31:22 PM EDT
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Quoted:
  That had to be Usery. I quit going there. They are complete assholes out there.
View Quote


WTF?

That's ridiculous.. in AZ???  Fukkin FREE STATE.  I don't even keep copies with me or my gear.   They don't mess with us at RIO SALDO.

Shoot... we'll get on High power and not even need ear pro because we're the only ones there and we have bolt guns suppressed.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 12:39:36 PM EDT
Love to see a Range Master ask me about paperwork, " I'll start off by saying, paperwork; What paperwork ? LOL
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 1:13:32 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Unfortunately, they could be. If an incident were to occur and someone was hurt, they could be held criminally liable for negligence in allowing by inaction an illegal firearm at their range. They could also be held liable in a civil suit as well.

They're just doing their due diligence to keep things legal. If I owned a range, I'd want to see a Form 1 or Form 4 for every Title II that walked in...
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The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.


Unfortunately, they could be. If an incident were to occur and someone was hurt, they could be held criminally liable for negligence in allowing by inaction an illegal firearm at their range. They could also be held liable in a civil suit as well.

They're just doing their due diligence to keep things legal. If I owned a range, I'd want to see a Form 1 or Form 4 for every Title II that walked in...


Other than FA, exactly what makes the use of a Class III firearm more dangerous than anything else?
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 1:45:41 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Other than FA, exactly what makes the use of a Class III firearm more dangerous than anything else?
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The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.


Unfortunately, they could be. If an incident were to occur and someone was hurt, they could be held criminally liable for negligence in allowing by inaction an illegal firearm at their range. They could also be held liable in a civil suit as well.

They're just doing their due diligence to keep things legal. If I owned a range, I'd want to see a Form 1 or Form 4 for every Title II that walked in...


Other than FA, exactly what makes the use of a Class III firearm more dangerous than anything else?


They certain can be more dangerous, extremely so. There are plenty of full-autos I would never allow a novice to fire, nor would I allow them on my range if I did not know the owner first hand ( again, if I had a range).

Remember the little boy killed with the Micro Uzi at a full-auto shoot in New England? That happened specifically because of a full-auto with a high cyclic rate. Had he been firing a semi-auto, it would not have gone down that way.

Remember the little girl killed by the triple Minigun set-up at Knob Creek many years ago? Again, wholly due to a full -auto with a very high cyclic rate.

Suppressors, SBRs, etc, are not any more dangerous, but you can't say "Class III" firearms do not present an added danger.

In the end, however, all firearms are dangerous and if someone is hurt and it turns out the firearm was illegal, then the arguement that it should not have been there to begin with is very strong and there could be a large legal entanglement.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 1:53:15 PM EDT
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Quoted:


They certain can be more dangerous, extremely so. There are plenty of full-autos I would never allow a novice to fire, nor would I allow them on my range if I did not know the owner first hand ( again, if I had a range).

Remember the little boy killed with the Micro Uzi at a full-auto shoot in New England? That happened specifically because of a full-auto with a high cyclic rate. Had he been firing a semi-auto, it would not have gone down that way.

Remember the little girl killed by the triple Minigun set-up at Knob Creek many years ago? Again, wholly due to a full -auto with a very high cyclic rate.

Suppressors, SBRs, etc, are not any more dangerous, but you can't say "Class III" firearms do not present an added danger.

In the end, however, all firearms are dangerous and if someone is hurt and it turns out the firearm was illegal, then the arguement that it should not have been there to begin with is very strong and there could be a large legal entanglement.
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The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.


Unfortunately, they could be. If an incident were to occur and someone was hurt, they could be held criminally liable for negligence in allowing by inaction an illegal firearm at their range. They could also be held liable in a civil suit as well.

They're just doing their due diligence to keep things legal. If I owned a range, I'd want to see a Form 1 or Form 4 for every Title II that walked in...


Other than FA, exactly what makes the use of a Class III firearm more dangerous than anything else?


They certain can be more dangerous, extremely so. There are plenty of full-autos I would never allow a novice to fire, nor would I allow them on my range if I did not know the owner first hand ( again, if I had a range).

Remember the little boy killed with the Micro Uzi at a full-auto shoot in New England? That happened specifically because of a full-auto with a high cyclic rate. Had he been firing a semi-auto, it would not have gone down that way.

Remember the little girl killed by the triple Minigun set-up at Knob Creek many years ago? Again, wholly due to a full -auto with a very high cyclic rate.

Suppressors, SBRs, etc, are not any more dangerous, but you can't say "Class III" firearms do not present an added danger.

In the end, however, all firearms are dangerous and if someone is hurt and it turns out the firearm was illegal, then the arguement that it should not have been there to begin with is very strong and there could be a large legal entanglement.


Go back and read what I said.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 1:54:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 2:20:41 PM EDT
I keep copies in my car so they're always with me. No one has ever asked to see them, though. Sometimes someone will ask IF I have stamps to go with my stuff but have always been satisfied with "yes" - I suspect they just want to talk guns.  SBRs and suppressors are conversation starters.  If someone at a private range demanded them I'd comply - their range, their rules.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 2:24:20 PM EDT
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Quoted:



I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.
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Quoted:
The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  



I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.


Maybe a guy sporting an illegal SBR or suppressor conducts the rest of his life with a similar disregard for the law and they don't want people like that in their establishment just on general principle?
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 4:09:56 PM EDT
Never been asked yet. But if I'm asked I'll gladly prove to anyone my toys are registered and legal.

To each their own, but I'll never understand its a "tax document" argument and I don't have to show it to anyone but the ATF.  It's not a W-2, and if that argumeny about a "tax document", only the IRS could have access to it, short of another agency with a search warrant. Like it or not, its a $200 tax to REGISTER it with the federal government. Some states such as mine, ALL NFA items are a felony unless their registered...

While I will admit unlikely, if someone approached me at the range asking for paperwork and I told them to pound sand and they told me to leave. I don't want a police officer showing up at my house investigating a felony

I'll go so far as to say I enjoy teaching folks about the NFA world and refer them here to learn more from the many experts who share their experience and knowledge

Each their own
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 5:14:36 PM EDT
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Never been asked yet. But if I'm asked I'll gladly prove to anyone my toys are registered and legal.

To each their own, but I'll never understand its a "tax document" argument and I don't have to show it to anyone but the ATF.  It's not a W-2, and if that argumeny about a "tax document", only the IRS could have access to it, short of another agency with a search warrant. Like it or not, its a $200 tax to REGISTER it with the federal government. Some states such as mine, ALL NFA items are a felony unless their registered...

While I will admit unlikely, if someone approached me at the range asking for paperwork and I told them to pound sand and they told me to leave. I don't want a police officer showing up at my house investigating a felony

I'll go so far as to say I enjoy teaching folks about the NFA world and refer them here to learn more from the many experts who share their experience and knowledge

Each their own
View Quote


I agree with you, however the "tax document" argument is very real, though cited unnecessarily.  This is the effective veil that protects many Title II owners behind enemy lines in many states. CA in particular has a large population of legally registered Title II firearms that are kept in violation of state law, guns that go all the way back to the 1968 amnesty. The protected tax status is what keeps the ATF from being able to share this info freely the CA DOJ. If there were no tax or if the tax were a "fee" instead, then LE in any state would be able to freely access your info.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 5:59:32 PM EDT
Would the range be held criminally liable if there were 922r violations, or stolen weapons being used on their range and there was an incident? What about when someone offs themselves at a range, its in the news and nothing ever seems to happen to the ranges. If those waivers you always sign to shoot somewhere wouldn't indemnify the range from an illegal NFA item then how do they cover the above.

What would peoples reaction be if a range wanted to inspect every firearm that came in and run the SN through the stolen weapons database.  If they did that it would probably get a few stolen guns off the street, I guarantee there are quite a few people who've bought guns at a gun show that was stolen and they are none the wiser. They wouldn't seize the gun, just inform the patron their weapon is stolen and they will be notifying the authorities.

I have no problem with showing the forms, It just seems like a lot of places say its because the ATF makes them, and from what I've heard from people, the ones that ask for forms are less than professional with the way they go about it. FYI, I've never had anyone ask me for any of my forms, but I always keep a binder with a copy every 5320.20, F1/F4 and a complete copy of my trust.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 7:29:07 PM EDT
I would show them and get on shooting.  If they are nice about it I might offer to let them shoot.  If they are dicks show them, then rapid fire 30 rounds in the 5.56 11.5" SBR with brake in celebration of my freedoms.

MAHA
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 7:55:38 PM EDT
i can care less, as long as they are respectful... but never been asked anyway.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 9:09:35 PM EDT
One of the great things about Utah is the fact that there are a lot of wide open spaces to shoot and no range officers running around trying to feel important.  Being a private range, however, it behooves you to play by their rules.  That being said, I dont really know what difference it should make to them one way or the other.
Link Posted: 8/27/2013 9:36:26 PM EDT
No issue with it, provided it doesn't become a real pain in the ass.  Managers and RSOs need to use some discretion sometimes and unfortunately, most of them don't understand that it's an inconvenience (at least from my experience).  Here are 2 examples:

1). I normally bring a ton of firearms when I hit the range.  On any given day, I may show up with 4 suppressors, an SBS, 2 SBRs, and a machine gun, in addition to several other rifles and pistols.  Now, that would be 8 stamps.  From my experience, every place I have shot has wanted to inspect every single weapon and stamp to make sure the serial numbers match up.  It takes me 15 minutes minimum to check into the range.  Use some discretion.  Pick a random item and check that one stamp.  If it checks out, assume the rest are legal and send me on my way,  This bullshit of taking my weapons out, guffawing with bubba about how sweet they are, and checking every little serial number is just ridiculous and irks me.  I could bring fewer weapons, true, but they should be damned happy that I show up to shoot there, particularly when I'm bringing $40,000 in hardware to their range and will likely spend a lot.

2). Once I'm checked in, don't bother me again unless I've committed a violation of range rules.  I don't want to be hovered over.  I don't want to chat unless I engage you in conversation.  I want to shoot in peace.  The biggest thing that pisses me off though are people who continue to ask me for my stamps, after I've had the weapons checked and cleared at the counter.  On my last 2 range sessions, if been approached by 3 guys each time to ask if I checked in my gear and then asked to see the stamps again.  Is horseshit.  Does no one train these people?  Check with the manager first to make sure I haven't already been cleared.  Don't interrupt me constantly on my paid-for time on the line because you can't check in with your fellow employees.  That makes me absolutely furious.

It's their range, so they have the prerogative to keep it safe and legal.  But there's a line they shouldn't cross and they should use some common sense.  I won't be shooting at the last two places I went anymore.  I explained that to both managers when I left.  I bring more hardware in than anyone, I shoot safely, I bring many friends with me who do the same, and we buy loads of ammo and targets.  I don't need to be lectured or bothered beyond reason.  When someone spends $500+ with friends ona typical range visit, you make them right at home; you don't nitpick.

That's my $.02
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 5:12:25 AM EDT
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  You must be one of the special ones. Last time myself and a couple of my LE coworkers went out, some idiot junior RO decided to sit right behind us and critique or correct everything we did. I've forgotten more about guns and shooting than he knows.

Some of my friends who are deputies still shoot out there, but you won't catch me going there again. They can shut it down for all I care anymore. I shoot elsewhere.
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  That had to be Usery. I quit going there. They are complete assholes out there.


WTF?

That's ridiculous.. in AZ???  Fukkin FREE STATE.  I don't even keep copies with me or my gear.   They don't mess with us at RIO SALDO.

Shoot... we'll get on High power and not even need ear pro because we're the only ones there and we have bolt guns suppressed.

  You must be one of the special ones. Last time myself and a couple of my LE coworkers went out, some idiot junior RO decided to sit right behind us and critique or correct everything we did. I've forgotten more about guns and shooting than he knows.

Some of my friends who are deputies still shoot out there, but you won't catch me going there again. They can shut it down for all I care anymore. I shoot elsewhere.


Man...  We shoot out there a lot during fire restrictions... both on high power if available and the Main range if we have to.  Never had any of that happen.  There's some goobers shooting of course, but nothing annoying like that.
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 5:26:06 AM EDT
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No issue with it, provided it doesn't become a real pain in the ass.  Managers and RSOs need to use some discretion sometimes and unfortunately, most of them don't understand that it's an inconvenience (at least from my experience).  Here are 2 examples:

SNIP

That's my $.02
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I'd tell them up front, Pick one or two. And stop bothering me on the line. Or I'll take my business elsewhere.
I've told people that I'd rather spend more somewhere else and be treated better. They usually see the light.
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 5:28:34 AM EDT
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Man...  We shoot out there a lot during fire restrictions... both on high power if available and the Main range if we have to.  Never had any of that happen.  There's some goobers shooting of course, but nothing annoying like that.
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  That had to be Usery. I quit going there. They are complete assholes out there.


WTF?

That's ridiculous.. in AZ???  Fukkin FREE STATE.  I don't even keep copies with me or my gear.   They don't mess with us at RIO SALDO.

Shoot... we'll get on High power and not even need ear pro because we're the only ones there and we have bolt guns suppressed.

  You must be one of the special ones. Last time myself and a couple of my LE coworkers went out, some idiot junior RO decided to sit right behind us and critique or correct everything we did. I've forgotten more about guns and shooting than he knows.

Some of my friends who are deputies still shoot out there, but you won't catch me going there again. They can shut it down for all I care anymore. I shoot elsewhere.


Man...  We shoot out there a lot during fire restrictions... both on high power if available and the Main range if we have to.  Never had any of that happen.  There's some goobers shooting of course, but nothing annoying like that.


It is possible to enforce range and safety rules without being a dickhead. Unfortunately, many RO's have a position of authority for the first time and don't know how to use that authority judiciously.
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 8:19:58 AM EDT
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It is possible to enforce range and safety rules without being a dickhead. Unfortunately, many RO's have a position of authority for the first time and don't know how to use that authority judiciously.
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  That had to be Usery. I quit going there. They are complete assholes out there.


WTF?

That's ridiculous.. in AZ???  Fukkin FREE STATE.  I don't even keep copies with me or my gear.   They don't mess with us at RIO SALDO.

Shoot... we'll get on High power and not even need ear pro because we're the only ones there and we have bolt guns suppressed.

  You must be one of the special ones. Last time myself and a couple of my LE coworkers went out, some idiot junior RO decided to sit right behind us and critique or correct everything we did. I've forgotten more about guns and shooting than he knows.

Some of my friends who are deputies still shoot out there, but you won't catch me going there again. They can shut it down for all I care anymore. I shoot elsewhere.


Man...  We shoot out there a lot during fire restrictions... both on high power if available and the Main range if we have to.  Never had any of that happen.  There's some goobers shooting of course, but nothing annoying like that.


It is possible to enforce range and safety rules without being a dickhead. Unfortunately, many RO's have a position of authority for the first time and don't know how to use that authority judiciously.


Yea, most are wannabe cops/academy flunkies.
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 8:31:32 AM EDT
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It is possible to enforce range and safety rules without being a dickhead. Unfortunately, many RO's have a position of authority for the first time and don't know how to use that authority judiciously.
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I've seen some of those dicks.  Strikes me that most of the guys working at RIO are mellow though.

Link Posted: 8/28/2013 8:48:31 AM EDT
Local private range wanted copies of all paperwork for suppressors and SBRs if you were going to shoot them at their range.  NOT to simply see and hand back, but to keep and store in their files.  I told them to piss off and I am no longer a member at that range.
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 9:04:12 AM EDT
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Local private range wanted copies of all paperwork for suppressors and SBRs if you were going to shoot them at their range.  NOT to simply see and hand back, but to keep and store in their files.  I told them to piss off and I am no longer a member at that range.
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Now that is taking it way too far...
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 9:37:31 AM EDT
You should start asking to see their ffl license every time you walk in  there... and permits for the gun range.   works both ways you know.
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 9:39:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 9:50:42 AM EDT
Wow.  I've never had them look at anything we've brought out.  If they start that crap with us, we'll not return for sure.

Buckeye looks nice, but last I looked they didn't have any longer ranges, like a High Power range... I'm on the east side too... so 50 miles from me too.

Link Posted: 8/28/2013 3:23:36 PM EDT
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Love to see a Range Master ask me about paperwork, " I'll start off by saying, paperwork; What paperwork ? LOL
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Then hold out a USB thumb drive...

"You gotta laptop" ??
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 4:59:26 PM EDT
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Now that is taking it way too far...
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Local private range wanted copies of all paperwork for suppressors and SBRs if you were going to shoot them at their range.  NOT to simply see and hand back, but to keep and store in their files.  I told them to piss off and I am no longer a member at that range.


Now that is taking it way too far...


I agree 100%... I would find a new range if I was ever in that situation....
Link Posted: 8/28/2013 5:36:26 PM EDT
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I was asked yesterday to see a stamp for my SBR at a private range. On one hand, it is there range and I have to abide by their rules, on the other hand, it's not their purview to do the BATFE's eyes and ears. I was a little peeved to have to go back to my truck in the rain to get the stamp copy, but it won't keep me from going back, because they were courteous about it. How do you feel about being asked by other than law enforcement for your stamp?
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In the beginning they did, but now no
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 11:18:33 AM EDT
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That's actually not 100% true. If several people got arrested at the range for firing untaxed items and some DA wanted to be a dick or got political pressure from above, the range owner could be criminally charged with creating a private nuisance. Or surrounding property owners could sue for the same. I'd hope they would have a good chance of winning in court, but still...the legal fees alone could be enough to drive them out of business.
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I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.

That's actually not 100% true. If several people got arrested at the range for firing untaxed items and some DA wanted to be a dick or got political pressure from above, the range owner could be criminally charged with creating a private nuisance. Or surrounding property owners could sue for the same. I'd hope they would have a good chance of winning in court, but still...the legal fees alone could be enough to drive them out of business.


Private nuisance. lol Sounds like it doesn't affect the public so who cares. Kind of how aggravated assault sounds like an excuse. "Officer he was aggravating me so I assaulted him" Officer replies "Oh well in that case it's ok"
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 11:24:42 AM EDT
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Other than FA, exactly what makes the use of a Class III firearm more dangerous than anything else?
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The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.


Unfortunately, they could be. If an incident were to occur and someone was hurt, they could be held criminally liable for negligence in allowing by inaction an illegal firearm at their range. They could also be held liable in a civil suit as well.

They're just doing their due diligence to keep things legal. If I owned a range, I'd want to see a Form 1 or Form 4 for every Title II that walked in...


Other than FA, exactly what makes the use of a Class III firearm more dangerous than anything else?


What makes FA so dangerous? That's like saying because someone doesn't know how to operate a stick shift somehow makes the car more dangerous.

Additionally I have never met or heard of someone who legally owns an MG not knowing how to safely operate it. It's not like they are bought on a whim. When I bought my first MG I knew more about the history and operation of it by the time I too possession than most people know about their Winchester M70 and that was mostly because of the "night before Christmas syndrome" that you experience while waiting for the stamp to come back.
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 11:32:53 AM EDT
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No issue with it, provided it doesn't become a real pain in the ass.  Managers and RSOs need to use some discretion sometimes and unfortunately, most of them don't understand that it's an inconvenience (at least from my experience).  Here are 2 examples:

1). I normally bring a ton of firearms when I hit the range.  On any given day, I may show up with 4 suppressors, an SBS, 2 SBRs, and a machine gun, in addition to several other rifles and pistols.  Now, that would be 8 stamps.  From my experience, every place I have shot has wanted to inspect every single weapon and stamp to make sure the serial numbers match up.  It takes me 15 minutes minimum to check into the range.  Use some discretion.  Pick a random item and check that one stamp.  If it checks out, assume the rest are legal and send me on my way,  This bullshit of taking my weapons out, guffawing with bubba about how sweet they are, and checking every little serial number is just ridiculous and irks me.  I could bring fewer weapons, true, but they should be damned happy that I show up to shoot there, particularly when I'm bringing $40,000 in hardware to their range and will likely spend a lot.

2). Once I'm checked in, don't bother me again unless I've committed a violation of range rules.  I don't want to be hovered over.  I don't want to chat unless I engage you in conversation.  I want to shoot in peace.  The biggest thing that pisses me off though are people who continue to ask me for my stamps, after I've had the weapons checked and cleared at the counter.  On my last 2 range sessions, if been approached by 3 guys each time to ask if I checked in my gear and then asked to see the stamps again.  Is horseshit.  Does no one train these people?  Check with the manager first to make sure I haven't already been cleared.  Don't interrupt me constantly on my paid-for time on the line because you can't check in with your fellow employees.  That makes me absolutely furious.

It's their range, so they have the prerogative to keep it safe and legal.  But there's a line they shouldn't cross and they should use some common sense.  I won't be shooting at the last two places I went anymore.  I explained that to both managers when I left.  I bring more hardware in than anyone, I shoot safely, I bring many friends with me who do the same, and we buy loads of ammo and targets.  I don't need to be lectured or bothered beyond reason.  When someone spends $500+ with friends ona typical range visit, you make them right at home; you don't nitpick.

That's my $.02
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What did they say in response?
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 12:05:32 PM EDT
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What makes FA so dangerous? That's like saying because someone doesn't know how to operate a stick shift somehow makes the car more dangerous.

Additionally I have never met or heard of someone who legally owns an MG not knowing how to safely operate it. It's not like they are bought on a whim. When I bought my first MG I knew more about the history and operation of it by the time I too possession than most people know about their Winchester M70 and that was mostly because of the "night before Christmas syndrome" that you experience while waiting for the stamp to come back.
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The range I always go to sometimes asks to see it and I have no problem with it...  Most of the time they just ask if I have my paperwork and when I ask if they'd like to see it, they say no.


However Sunday...I was shooting and probably had been there a good 30 min when a RO comes up and asks if I 'checked my suppressor in'.  I told him I'd been there dozens of times and had no idea that was a requirement and offered the paperwork to him at that time.  He said the guy at the counter had to see it and asked if the paperwork paired the suppressor to the rifle .  I just said "Nope".  
He then proceeded to yell up to the counter saying a guy on table 11 had a suppressor yada yada.  The guy at the counter yelled back after he saw me and said 'yea we know him, hes good to go'.  
Guy comes back and says 'you are good sir'.        

"Thanks"  

I really can't understand why they give a crap about it. I mean they are not in any way liable it someone is using an SBR or a suppressor illegally owned on their range.


Unfortunately, they could be. If an incident were to occur and someone was hurt, they could be held criminally liable for negligence in allowing by inaction an illegal firearm at their range. They could also be held liable in a civil suit as well.

They're just doing their due diligence to keep things legal. If I owned a range, I'd want to see a Form 1 or Form 4 for every Title II that walked in...


Other than FA, exactly what makes the use of a Class III firearm more dangerous than anything else?


What makes FA so dangerous? That's like saying because someone doesn't know how to operate a stick shift somehow makes the car more dangerous.

Additionally I have never met or heard of someone who legally owns an MG not knowing how to safely operate it. It's not like they are bought on a whim. When I bought my first MG I knew more about the history and operation of it by the time I too possession than most people know about their Winchester M70 and that was mostly because of the "night before Christmas syndrome" that you experience while waiting for the stamp to come back.


Full-autos are more dangerous because accidents tend to be full-auto in nature. An ND with a Title I firearm means a single round has been fired. The same ND with an FA can send a burst in an inintended direction. I'd call that a higher order of dangerous.

A valid Form 4 means nothing more than he likely has money. I wouldn't trust anyone's experience I didn't know first hand.  As I stated before, there are unfortunately too many accidents to cite involving legally owned FAs being fired by children or other wholly inexperienced people. The bad judgement of some people is itself inexperience regardless of how knowledgable they might be.
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 12:39:28 PM EDT
@homeinvader

Well it still comes back to the operator and exercising common sense not that the guns themselves are inherently dangerous. The line that "certain types of guns are too dangerous" is what the left wants everyone to believe.

To use the analogy I made about stick shifts again. I'm sure that there are some 10 year olds out there who can probably master the use of a manual transmission quickly or have already done it in other forms of motor vehicles that are legal for them to operate at that age. But that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to drive their older brothers car on the road manual transmission or not. Now they have made laws about that already because it is a universally recognized issue. Automatic weapons are not as universally owned to the point to make those kinds of age restrictions on use. However just like with automobiles the vast majority of MG's were made to fit an adult and while there may be a small minority of children who can safely operate them the vast majority probably can't. But its not the gun's fault. Heck even my 58 year old mother has a hard time trying to hold my STEN gun up long enough to get a full 32 round mag through it.
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 1:02:26 PM EDT
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@homeinvader

Well it still comes back to the operator and exercising common sense not that the guns themselves are inherently dangerous. The line that "certain types of guns are too dangerous" is what the left wants everyone to believe.

To use the analogy I made about stick shifts again. I'm sure that there are some 10 year olds out there who can probably master the use of a manual transmission quickly or have already done it in other forms of motor vehicles that are legal for them to operate at that age. But that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to drive their older brothers car on the road manual transmission or not. Now they have made laws about that already because it is a universally recognized issue. Automatic weapons are not as universally owned to the point to make those kinds of age restrictions on use. However just like with automobiles the vast majority of MG's were made to fit an adult and while there may be a small minority of children who can safely operate them the vast majority probably can't. But its not the gun's fault. Heck even my 58 year old mother has a hard time trying to hold my STEN gun up long enough to get a full 32 round mag through it.
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Putting this back into the context of the thread...

No one is blaming the gun, but an inexperienced FA owner or an experienced one with bad judgement -neither of which can be readily determined by a range owner- can create an extremely dangerous situation at a crowded range, one arguably beyond the "assumption of risk" threshold. Therefore a range asking for proof of NFA registration is readily available due diligence.
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 1:07:12 PM EDT
I've still never been asked to see a stamp in the six years I've had them.
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 1:13:14 PM EDT
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I've still never been asked to see a stamp in the six years I've had them.
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Me either.  90% of the people don't know what they were looking at anyway.
Link Posted: 8/29/2013 1:20:11 PM EDT
That's why this is my range.  No dickhead RSO's.  No wanna-be gang bangers with their pants around their knees jumping into the air shooting a Rossi .38 while holding it sideways (yes I saw this at Rampart Range outside of Colorado Springs before it was closed).  No checking for tax stamps.  Been up here shooting everything from full auto M-14's to suppressed AR's to SBR's to tannerite.  Best part is...free.

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