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Posted: 8/12/2004 7:09:49 PM EST
I am thinking of purchasing one of these Siaga shotguns . They are kinda rare around my parts and up close I have only scene the 410 and 20 ga .

Do these handle and shoot well in 12 ga . I will probably get the model with adjustable sights .

I think they look cool and I love that AK action in my aks .

Personal reviews welcome .
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 7:57:27 PM EST
I have one. All who have shot it go away grinning. Cant wait for that damn AWB to die and see some higher capacity mags......


KABOING!

BTW, It bumpfires a 5 round mag + 1 QUICK. Thud,Thud,Thud,Thud,Thud,Thud,...........
Link Posted: 8/12/2004 8:12:37 PM EST
I love mine. Little recoil, great quality and just has that cool factor. Mag prices seem to be increasing and becoming harder to find. I think theyre a great investment.

Cavvet, will the AWB affect shotgun mag capacity? Since its semi auto I thought 5 was the max no matter what. The only thing I thought would change would be that you could add as pistol grip and maybe folding stock. Not sure though.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 12:44:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By JohnnyMcEldoo:
Cavvet, will the AWB affect shotgun mag capacity?



I normally cite the legal sources, but this time just for hoots and hollars, I actually found some truthful bits on the Brady Bunch website...This s one of the few honest actual facts on that pag, I found so many errors I felt like I was reading about another law, another time, another place.

www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=awb


The 1994 law also prohibits manufacturers from producing firearms with more than one of the following assault weapon features:

Shotguns

* Folding/telescoping stock
* Protruding pistol grip
* Detachable magazine capacity
* Fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds





One of our honest links.......

Link Posted: 8/13/2004 7:41:11 AM EST
Great Shotgun, don't own one yet but have shot it. Very mild recoil. I need to buy one. I expect they will try to ban it by means of calling it a deadly destructive device.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 7:52:13 AM EST
Shot one of the saiga 12s last year, its on my 'to get' list, just haven't gotten around to getting one yet.

So yeah, you could say I like it.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:52:19 AM EST
I want one
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 8:56:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By DeadSled:
I want one



yeah
folding stock, 15 round mags, flash hider, and bayo lug on it, talk about original

bump this rifle/shotgun
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:42:44 PM EST
Got a lead on someone in Russia that can get me hi-cap mags for them. Filling out the paperwork for my import license.

wganz

Link Posted: 8/13/2004 2:44:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2004 2:47:17 PM EST by AZ-K9]
Pics dammit!


Will they shoot slugs? They have pistol grips?



­

<­BR>





Link Posted: 8/13/2004 3:59:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
Pics dammit!


Will they shoot slugs? They have pistol grips?



­

<­BR>





kalashnikov.guns.ru/photos/che_saiga12.jpg




That is a badass gun! I want one. Where? How much?
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 4:04:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 4:19:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
What are the standard mag capacities?



5 rounds.
Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:20:25 PM EST
Post ban are 5, iirc the LEO version is 8, as seen in the pic.\



Link Posted: 8/13/2004 5:51:12 PM EST
I got to shoot my friend's new Saiga 12ga today, 19" barrel, rifle sights (really more like pistol sights mounted on each end of the piston tube).

All I can say: Holy. Shit.
I must have one, its on my to-buy list.

5+1 of 12ga in a very soft, very affordable, very reliable semiautomatic action, basically what I've always wanted in a shotgun. Too bad you cant change barrels for different situations ala Remington and the like, but they're cheap enough to buy a new shotgun in place of a spare barrel.

Doubles were so much fun, I couldnt believe it; this was my first time with a semiauto 12, I'm used to a pump moving from my shoulder cup to my arm and beating the heck out of me on the second clay but this gun was a hoot to blast clays with.

I might just buy two, one to leave in the original configuration and one to make evil, do any versions come with a 18-20" barrel threaded for choke tubes?

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 5:52:52 PM EST
Does anyone know the scoop on converting the shotgun stock to the AK style stock and pistol grip? IT looks like youd need to move the trigger forword to get the pistol grip on?

This would only be attempted of course after the ban sunsets.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 6:13:05 PM EST
Converting a Saiga-12 to an AK style (std pistol grip and stock) would be just like doing the Saiga rifles; there are several web sites devoted to the step-by-step.

Bear in mind that converting a Saiga shotgun in such a manner would not be legal until after the AWB dies, and even then would require the substitution of 5 foreign parts with US-made equipment.

my review of the Saiga-12 is here:
mywebpages.comcast.net/shooter2_indy/saiga12.html

Link Posted: 8/14/2004 6:39:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shooter521:
Converting a Saiga-12 to an AK style (std pistol grip and stock) would be just like doing the Saiga rifles; there are several web sites devoted to the step-by-step.

Bear in mind that converting a Saiga shotgun in such a manner would not be legal until after the AWB dies, and even then would require the substitution of 5 foreign parts with US-made equipment.

my review of the Saiga-12 is here:
mywebpages.comcast.net/shooter2_indy/saiga12.html




Thanks shooter521. Only about 4 more weeks to go then Excellent review BTW!
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 7:09:18 PM EST
great info guys ,
What are the different models of the 12ga Saiga you reccomend ??
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 1:02:41 PM EST
This is what I plan to do to mine after the ban.

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 1:13:46 PM EST
Arsenal USA should be get into the Saiga SG mfg'ing biz. Would make everything legal. Maybe I'll shoot them an email...
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 1:14:04 PM EST
I heard you could get around the ban by getting a 410. Since its a caliber and not a uage.......
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:09:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3-7INFANTRY:
This is what I plan to do to mine after the ban.

www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/25999saiga_12_GA_2.jpg



SWEEET! Id like to take mine once converted to something like that to the local clay pigeon range. Make all the "2nd ammendment means huntin rights" folk cringe
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:50:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By wganz:
Got a lead on someone in Russia that can get me hi-cap mags for them. Filling out the paperwork for my import license.

wganz




Well, well well.. Everbody get your Saiga 12s while you can.. Yet someone else that doesnt know better is gonna fuck things up for all of us.... Just like the didldos that just had to make a 7.62x39 pistol..


The ATF has said if anyone imports a mag for the Saiga 12 over 5 rounds, they will declare it a destructive device....
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:37:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:

Originally Posted By wganz:
Got a lead on someone in Russia that can get me hi-cap mags for them. Filling out the paperwork for my import license.

wganz




Well, well well.. Everbody get your Saiga 12s while you can.. Yet someone else that doesnt know better is gonna fuck things up for all of us.... Just like the didldos that just had to make a 7.62x39 pistol..


The ATF has said if anyone imports a mag for the Saiga 12 over 5 rounds, they will declare it a destructive device....



What about a company producing them domestically?
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:38:56 PM EST
So after the ban (still is not exactly clear to me) will we be able to buy one stock with a pistol grip or no? If not, does that conversion sopken of have the 5 part minimum?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:20:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 5:22:18 AM EST by Shooter521]
chewbacca:

As I read it, after the ban it will be legal to own a Saiga-12 with a pistol grip and AK-type stock (standard or folder), but whether anyone will import them in such a configuration remains to be seen. If they did, they'd have to comply with the imported-parts count rules, in order to be considered a domestic weapon and be immune from the "sporting purposes" clause that applies to imported guns. Basically the same thing that's happening with the Romanian SAR and WASR AKs now.

Also bear in mind that the Treasury Secretary can, with the stroke of a pen, declare ANY type of "nonsporting" shotgun a Destructive Device and require its registration as a Class III weapon. Some feel that as soon as the ban lapses, our beloved Saigas will join the USAS-12 and Street Sweepers in this category. If that happens, well... I've got mine, so I'll be paying the $200 for the tax stamp and then doing whatever I damn well please with the gun's configuration. But such a move would pretty much kill any future commercial sales of the Saiga shotgun family.

And regarding the Saiga-410 - the "it's not a gauge, it's a caliber" thing is BUNK. The Saiga-410 has a smooth bore, so it's a shotgun in the eyes of the law, and is still bound by shotgun rules.





Link Posted: 8/17/2004 12:47:46 AM EST
I would love to have a SBS one with a folder and 10+ round mags.


I wonder if any SOT has made one into a post 86 DS mg yet that would be awsome to shoot a FA shotgun.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:49:24 AM EST
Cyrax:

IIRC, Troy Sellars did a F/A conversion on a Saiga-410.

Biggest mags currently available for the Saiga-12s hold 8, and it's unclear whether those will be available after the ban dies. SBS'ing a Saiga is certainly possible; one of the guys on Saiga-12.com did one, and found that you can only go down to 12" or so and maintain reliable function. He chopped his to 10", but then had to add on an expansion chamber at the muzzle (ala Krink FH) to get it to run reliably.

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 7:07:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 7:40:42 AM EST by Mach1]
Bet that Saiga is more reliable than my $900 piece of shit Benelli. Inertia operation is a gimmick.

Just a friendly tip.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:41:01 AM EST
I have one that I use for fall turkey shoots.


The only thing I don't like about it is the wobbly trigger.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 4:54:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 5:05:24 PM EST by chewbacca]

Originally Posted By Mach1:
Bet that Saiga is more reliable than my $900 piece of shit Benelli. Inertia operation is a gimmick.

Just a friendly tip.



Thats funny you said that. My buddy has a Benalli M1 Tactical and that thing is a peice of shit. One of the most persistent problem is week firing pin strike, it will just barely mark the primer, has that ever happened to you? My friend sent it back to Benelli and they said "We tested it and everything works fine." Only to shoot it two weeks after he got it back to have the same shit all over again, which BTW include short strokes.

The Benelli has kind of scared me reliability wise of semi auto shotguns.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:06:22 PM EST
I just want a Saiga just like the one in the pic on the first page. Will that be possible?
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:40:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By chewbacca:

Thats funny you said that. My buddy has a Benalli M1 Tactical and that thing is a peice of shit. One of the most persistent problem is week firing pin strike, it will just barely mark the primer, has that ever happened to you? My friend sent it back to Benelli and they said "We tested it and everything works fine." Only to shoot it two weeks after he got it back to have the same shit all over again, which BTW include short strokes.

The Benelli has kind of scared me reliability wise of semi auto shotguns.



No problem with light strikes, but the damn thing wont eject worth a damn- stovepipes. And I'm using stout loads!

Kicks like a friggen mule, too. My M1 doesn't have anything over my Remington 11-87, except corrosion resistance. I can shoot light target loads in my Remington. Try that with a Benelli.

I bought a $900 gimmick.

Sorry for the rant...
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:42:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shooter521:
chewbacca:

As I read it, after the ban it will be legal to own a Saiga-12 with a pistol grip and AK-type stock (standard or folder), but whether anyone will import them in such a configuration remains to be seen. If they did, they'd have to comply with the imported-parts count rules, in order to be considered a domestic weapon and be immune from the "sporting purposes" clause that applies to imported guns. Basically the same thing that's happening with the Romanian SAR and WASR AKs now.

Also bear in mind that the Treasury Secretary can, with the stroke of a pen, declare ANY type of "nonsporting" shotgun a Destructive Device and require its registration as a Class III weapon. Some feel that as soon as the ban lapses, our beloved Saigas will join the USAS-12 and Street Sweepers in this category. If that happens, well... I've got mine, so I'll be paying the $200 for the tax stamp and then doing whatever I damn well please with the gun's configuration. But such a move would pretty much kill any future commercial sales of the Saiga shotgun family.

And regarding the Saiga-410 - the "it's not a gauge, it's a caliber" thing is BUNK. The Saiga-410 has a smooth bore, so it's a shotgun in the eyes of the law, and is still bound by shotgun rules.



Not so sure that it would be legal to import one w/ a folding, pistol gripped stock due to the ATF's 'sporting purposes' interpetation under the '89 E.O. A fixed PG stock might be legal, however. If it were fabricated domestically, then the legal 'evil' parts count could go up, but being an imported arm, it doesn't get to dress up in as many goods as domestically-produce SG's. People were all excited about being able to get a full-on M4Super90 for a while until they realized that it's foreign made (which is strange considering it's being made for the US mil).

Sad, but true.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:51:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:

Originally Posted By wganz:
Got a lead on someone in Russia that can get me hi-cap mags for them. Filling out the paperwork for my import license.

wganz




Well, well well.. Everbody get your Saiga 12s while you can.. Yet someone else that doesnt know better is gonna fuck things up for all of us.... Just like the didldos that just had to make a 7.62x39 pistol..


The ATF has said if anyone imports a mag for the Saiga 12 over 5 rounds, they will declare it a destructive device....



Don't know where you got that from...

AK-USA is selling them with 8rd mags right now, LE Only because of the AWB.

So the 8rd mags are in country RIGHT NOW, they are just not available to civillians due to the 94 law...

And ATF doesn't arbitrarily NFAify shotguns, the USAS ban took an executive order. Bush will not be issuing any such EOs...

Std capacity for the Saiga-12 is 8rds, no more than a mag-tube-extended Remmy or Mossberg. There are no drums for these guns

I like them, I'd love to have a folding-stocked pistol-gripped 19" bbl version...

The 'normal' folding stock, btw, is a full buttstock that folds, not a wireframe or 'triangle' ala the AK...
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:58:56 PM EST
RE: POST 9/14 SAIGA SHOTGUN RULES

Ok, here it goes...


Post 9/14, the Saiga-12 becomes just another AK variant. Same rules apply.

IF you make sure it has no more than 10 US parts, you can 'evilize' it again.

The gun takes standard AK FCGs (so you can put a RSA or G-Tech trigger in there), and the conversion process is the same as for a Saiga rifle Supposedly, AK stocks & other furnature fits too, with a little modification...

I assume AK-USA & the other companies that 'soup up' Saiga rifles will do the same for shotguns. I e-mailed AK-USA last year and got a 'maybe, if the ban dies'...

Second, WRT the 'Destructive Device' declaration, THAT WILL TAKE AN EXECUTIVE ORDER. The ATF's present 'overlords' (Ashcroft/DOJ) are not big into gun-bans like Clinton was... So long as we avoid a Kerry administration, these guns will be safe...
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:20:12 PM EST
So, the bottom line is that I won't fubar the Saiga crowd by doing this? Thought it would be pretty neat to get some normal capacity magazines for the serf guns plus make a few $ doing it.

wganz

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 7:51:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3-7INFANTRY:
This is what I plan to do to mine after the ban.




Sweet Merciful Crap... that's purty...

S.O.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:22:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 7:25:54 AM EST by Shooter521]
Dave A:

And ATF doesn't arbitrarily NFAify shotguns, the USAS ban took an executive order. Bush will not be issuing any such EOs...


Please post the text of the Executive Order in question. (Here's a hint - there isn't one!)

The reclassification of the USAS-12, Street Sweeper and Striker 12 as Destructive Devices was done by the ATF (via the Treasury Secy) per the authority granted under the National Firearms Act. The reclassification is found in ATF Rulings 94-1 and 94-2. IOW, it was the ATF "arbitrarily NFAifying" the shotguns in question.

Here's a link to the ATF letter noting the end of the registration amnesty for USAS and revolving-cylinder shotgun owners, which gives more info.

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atfruling.2001-1.txt

The relevant passages:
[T]he term 'destructive device' means . . . (2) any type of
weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be
readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which
have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a
shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is
generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting
purposes; . . .

The USAS-12, Striker 12, and Streetsweeper shotguns were
classified as destructive devices pursuant to section 5845(f)
because they are shotguns with a bore of more than one-half inch in
diameter which are not generally recognized as particularly
suitable for sporting purposes.


Bottom line - much as we'd like to blame him, Bill Clinton didn't have a direct hand in this (he did not issue an Executive Order), though he may have "encouraged" the Treasury Sec. to reclassify the weapons in question. And just because GWB is in office, doesn't mean something like this couldn't happen on his watch. After all, have things gotten any EASIER for gun owners (and NFA enthusiasts in particular) vis-a-vis the BATF since 2000? The answer, I'm afraid, is a resounding "NO".



Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:24:58 AM EST
I really liked the looks of it and the concept when I bought mine but what I found is that it is very hard to change mags and I was a lot faster with my Mossy 590. It's a lot faster to top off the mag in a 590 and it holds 8 rounds.

I sold off the Saiga.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:35:42 AM EST
I have a 12 and a 20, I use my 20 more. It's great for groundhogs with buckshot. I have recently bought a Baikal MP153 it is kick ass also.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:41:45 AM EST
Yup, what was said about the USAS 12 & company. IIRC, the USAS 12 is the "AR type" shotgun......

So, if they made that a DD, and it had a pistol grip, detachable mag and such.... that would mean a Siaga 12 w/ a pistol grip and detachable mag "might" be a canidate for such a lable......(and it has a bore big enough to meet the requirements).

That means, if the ban dies, and some do import Saiga 12 w/ pistol grips and converts them w/ enough legal parts........ AND someone makes a "high capacity magasine - 8+ rounds, or drum" it may get the attention of the ATF..... we don't want that to happen now do we. We might be safe, if they just classifly the pistol gripped ones as a DD, IF it came to that........ Time will tell.

Product review-

I have one of the early Saiga 12's, the one w/out the hold open feature. The biggest issue is loading a full mag w/ a closed chamber...takes some practice to do so. I have fired slugs and I have the full choke (yes, yes, I know....)....I don't do it often. I like the accessory rail mount, which I haven't used, but it is a nice option to have. Being mag fed, it is nice, but also a pain. A tube fed, semi auto would be nice also......., as I shoot skeet w/ friends (informal shooting) and reloading a tube fed in between shots is easier then a mag....

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:44:09 PM EST
How big a deal is the bolt hold open feature ?? Should I let this be a determining factor ??
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:52:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ranman223:
How big a deal is the bolt hold open feature ?? Should I let this be a determining factor ??



imho, no.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 2:41:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ranman223:
How big a deal is the bolt hold open feature ?? Should I let this be a determining factor ??



If you plan on spending a lot of time at skeet and trap ranges, then it will be a big deal. Newer model Saigas have a bolt hold open.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:42:14 PM EST
How does the recoil on the 12 gauge model compare to that of a normal pump 12 gauge? Also, what are the finishes on these guns like? Is it like the standard SAR's? Thanks for any info.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:05:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 10:07:51 PM EST by Kaliburz]

Originally Posted By GomerPyle:
How does the recoil on the 12 gauge model compare to that of a normal pump 12 gauge? Also, what are the finishes on these guns like? Is it like the standard SAR's? Thanks for any info.



Recoil...well.... I'm not sure if I set the gas system right (has setting of 1 or 2), but.... I ended up putting a recoil pad. Mine (not sure if they newer have one or not) did not have a pad. So I got a slip on recoil pad. It recoils like any 12 guage, maybe less since it's gas (but no pad didn't help early on, shoulder got sore...still does when you fire 50 rounds or more in a few hours). One would think that a semi auto would be less then a pump...since part of the gas is used to cycle the action....

Finish, can't say much since I don't have anything to compare it to. Looks like it's Flat black paint. I bought this "hardly used".... guy bought it new, but needed the cash, sold it back to dealer (and dealer is a buddy of mine.)



Originally Posted By mr_camera_man:

Originally Posted By Ranman223:
How big a deal is the bolt hold open feature ?? Should I let this be a determining factor ??



If you plan on spending a lot of time at skeet and trap ranges, then it will be a big deal. Newer model Saigas have a bolt hold open.



That is true...as most places require the action to be open.... no possible on the early ones....

That means I have to go buy a newer one . If I do get a second Saiga 12, I'll pick up the one w/ choke tubes and maybe the pistol grip, IF it ever gets imported or someone does a conversion....

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:10:32 PM EST
Sounds interesting, whats the going price for one?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 10:31:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:

That means I have to go buy a newer one . If I do get a second Saiga 12, I'll pick up the one w/ choke tubes and maybe the pistol grip, IF it ever gets imported or someone does a conversion....




Conversion process/parts are the same as for a regular Saiga rifle to AK47 or AK74 config...

This service *will* be available...
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