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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/11/2005 4:11:27 PM EDT
With all the BS in NO going on I finally ordered the Mossberg 590A1 I've been sitting on the fence about. Now I'm starting to wonder if I should have got a lightweight M4 instead. Comments/Suggestions?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:00:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:04:39 PM EDT
Thanks for the informative reply. More specifically, it is for home defense and bugout of the city duty.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:31:32 PM EDT
Like many shooters, I have BOTH.

However, NOTHING says "Stop that. Leave us alone" like a load of buckshot.

Slugs are highly over-rated for actual HOME defense.
What you really get with slugs is a large bore MUSKET.

It must be precisely aimed, with proper sight alignment and rifle shooting technique.

The big advantage of the shotgun with buckshot is the SPEED at which you can get hits on target.
You still have to "aim" the gun, but it's more quickly pointing the gun instinctively and using the barrel and/or rifle sights as a "flash" sight picture.

While the carbine definitely has a place, in a true HOME defense situation, the shotgun is almost always the better choice, from many standpoints.

With that said, as a gun owner, you'll likely wind up buying a carbine anyway.
Why fight it?
Enjoy.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:41:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 5:43:09 PM EDT by markm]
This thread should piss off anyone with a brain.

I am often stunned at how many people who own ARs opt for a shotty for Home D. I can think of very few circumstances in which the shotty offers an advantage over the AR.

Poor marksmanship is too often the justification for the shotty. But if you actually get good instruction and FACTS from a good carbean school, you'll never pick the Shotgun over a Carbean.

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:43:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
This thread should piss off anyone with a brain.

I am often stunned at how many people who own ARs opt for a shotty for Home D. I can think of very few circumstances in which the shotty offers an advantage over the AR.


Dude, relax. Tell me why the AR is a better choice.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:02:40 PM EDT
Ranges 25 yards and under = Shotgun. powerful and very effective at close ranges.

AR15 - good for almost any range and very accurate.

A 00 Buck will do what a couple of .223 can do at home defence range, unless you are defending a few arcles of land, then an AR is what you need, but for me in my townhouse, Shotgun is good for me.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:12:52 PM EDT


You use a shotty in a house, I hope you know how to hang dry wall.






DaddyDett
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:37:57 PM EDT
I don't know how many of you wear glasses? Or have a hard time seeing clearly when you first wake up?

I happen to suffer from both conditions. If something goes bump in the night I will wake up and reach for a shotgun. The chances I'll be able to see the sights on my AR well enough to deliver accurate fire are just about nil.

At inside the house ranges I'm perfectly happy with the performance of buckshot.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 7:43:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 7:47:11 PM EDT by Phil1712]

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:

You use a shotty in a house, I hope you know how to hang dry wall.






DaddyDett



I hope you aren't implying that .223 ammo won't over penetrate walls either...

Besides, the shotgun and the ar are two different animals. if you want to guard your house with a .50 BMG or a ruger 10/22, i really couldnt give a shit, as long as you a weary whee your other family members reside and you hope not to hit them when shooting at Mr Robber.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:42:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:53:51 AM EDT
BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED FROM CIVILIAN USE DURING THESE TRYING TIMES!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:02:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 5:03:33 AM EDT by DaddyDett]

Originally Posted By Phil1712:

Originally Posted By DaddyDett:

You use a shotty in a house, I hope you know how to hang dry wall.






DaddyDett



I hope you aren't implying that .223 ammo won't over penetrate walls either...

Besides, the shotgun and the ar are two different animals. if you want to guard your house with a .50 BMG or a ruger 10/22, i really couldnt give a shit, as long as you a weary whee your other family members reside and you hope not to hit them when shooting at Mr Robber.



I was actually just trying to be a little silly, but I see my dry/oddball sense of humor has missed the mark.

Nope, I am not implying that at all. I actually live in a small house and close neighborhood, and a rifle isnt my first choice for inside home defense. Nor is a 12 guage. The layout of my house doesnt permit fields of fire from a shotty that I am comfortable with.
I am quite aware that even the .45 ACP Hydroshock rds I keep in my CZ 97B may over-penetrate as well.

DaddyDett
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 11:46:38 AM EDT
The unfortunate fact is, there is NO known weapon that will reliably stop someone, that won't also penetrate through most interior and many exterior walls.

There have been some good tries like the Glaser Safety Slug, but the bottom line seems to be, to be as careful as you can and use some common sense.
Slugs and rifles are not usually appropriate when your neighbors may be at risk from them.

This puts us at a distinct disadvantage, since the Bad Guys don't worry about this.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:59:35 PM EDT
Thanks fellas. I guess I'll get both!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:10:15 PM EDT
Any gun is better then no gun.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 1:15:33 PM EDT
For most people here, a home defense confrontation would take place at a distance of maybe 10 - 15 yards. I believe that either will do the job, but there's no question that 00 buck will do more damage at close range than an AR. You can miss with either and the risk of penetrating through walls applies to both. But the shotgun also affords you the opportunity to be less acurate and still hit your target.

Now for some people who may live on a stretch of land and consider their weapons for outside use in home defense, the AR would likely server better, especially at greater distances.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:06:10 PM EDT
HD kit

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:04:46 PM EDT
IMO the 2 areas where a SG would shine would be for protection against looters ( nothing says leave me the f*ck alone like racking a 12 ga pump) and survival situations due to its ability to take care of everything from a grizzly to a dove.

However, if i knew i was likely to have to kill someone at a range of 150 yds or less i'd go for the AR with its firepower, low recoil and terminal effects, for ranges above 150 yds i'd go for my FAL carbine.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:26:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 7:29:19 PM EDT by Zoub]
Shotgun VS AR is just like Judo vs Karate. Right next to my favorite 870 is a light weight AR and 2 Glocks.

If you stay within effective shotgun range, you are gonna piss your pants if some guy with a benelli decides to unload a mag full of buckshot at the couch, wall or car you are behind.

There is no law that says a shotgunner has to engage a guy with an AR at 150 yards. He can take cover and be patient. A guy with a shotgun on his home turf who knows all the cover in the area, even in the dark, is in good shape.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 8:52:45 PM EDT
I keep the shotgun in my car because it can handle anything I'd run across, be it deer, people, or wing shooting.


I keep a rifle for home defense, because thats what its job is.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 9:01:43 PM EDT
I choose the AR. I am more comfortable with it.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 9:48:23 AM EDT
This topic has been debated to death in the Survival forum. Most of the crew will beat you down and say the AR is better, but I think they are relatively equal in most SHTF scenarios.

AR Highlights: reliable, ammo can be found anywhere, ammo lighter so you can carry more pound vs. pound, parts widely available, works against armor, has better range, high mag capacity

Shotty Highlights: flexible b/c you can hunt and defend, wide variety of ammo (as long as you have a 12, not a 28, can use slugs against cars, etc. much more acceptable to LEOs and sheeple if you are on the move.

The bottom line is a personal decision based on what you believe the most likely SHTF scenario is going to be. If you live in Kanasas, out in the country where you can see for miles and you are looking for something to defend your home, then I'd pick an AR over any shotgun since you are looking for range. If you live in a suburban location, close to a big city then a shotgun looks better since you aren't concerned with range.

Overall, if I had to pick one weapon for all scenarios then it would be an AR because it works in all situations pretty well where a shotgun won't work in all scenarios. But that is easy for me to say since I've also got a 590A1 and an 870 Police.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:44:59 PM EDT
COACH GUN WITH BIRDSHOT!

w00t!
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:14:45 PM EDT
why force yourself to make a choice when you can have both? god bless america.

870 shotty, fal and 45 for me!!!!
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:22:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 5:24:15 PM EDT by GNMN]
For me it would in a SHTF situation

1. FAL for long range. In a I want nobody near my house. Do to me living in a high point I think this is a good advantage, gives me the chance to spot anybody approaching my home.
2. Incase u make it to the gate My pit!
3. 870P if u get thru him ^ . Do to the neighbors being close
4. G22 would be my side arm. incase there's a jam on my primary.

++ Good luck trying to get to me!

did i forget anything?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:50:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 1:51:19 AM EDT by skypirate7]

Originally Posted By GNMN:
For me it would in a SHTF situation

1. FAL for long range. In a I want nobody near my house. Do to me living in a high point I think this is a good advantage, gives me the chance to spot anybody approaching my home.
2. Incase u make it to the gate My pit!
3. 870P if u get thru him ^ . Do to the neighbors being close
4. G22 would be my side arm. incase there's a jam on my primary.

++ Good luck trying to get to me!

did i forget anything?



Yeah. Grenades.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:47:14 PM EDT
GET BOTH
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 12:14:49 AM EDT
If money is tight, a shotgun is cheaper than an AR. In fact, my Remington 870 Police, from auctionarms, cost me $350 NIB, including shipping and transfer fee (admittedly, a good deal - it was an estate gun), and my Springfield GI 1911A1 cost $400 NIB at a gunshow. Together that's less than what I'll probably have to pay for my upcoming Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine.

My suggestion is to not get obsessed with the idea that the end of the civilization is just around the corner. But remember the Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared. A shotgun will do fine, in my untested opinion, for home defense and for keeping rioters and looters at bay. For advise on what load to use indoors, do a web search on: shotgun "home defense load". If it's for outdoors use, load up with 00 Buck.

GL
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 12:32:31 AM EDT
I really see no point to the defensive shotgun unless it's doing double duty as a hunting piece. I just cant see where the short range, limited capacity, intense recoil would be more desireable than an AR. Of course your coach gun loaded with birdshot would be far less damning when the DA is holding it up in front of jurors than your short M4 with surefire light and suppressor.

That said, I'd lean heavily towards claymore mines.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:35:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 9:36:10 AM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
I just cant see where the short range, limited capacity, intense recoil would be more desireable than an AR.




Admitedly, I've never had to use a firearm in a home defense situation.

Also, I realize that b/c this board is dedicated the AR15 enthusiast (such as myself), many people here think that the AR15 is the 'ultimate' combat/defensive weapon. Arguably so.

Let's be realistic though. A 12 ga. shotgun #1 buckshot load will do much more damage to an attacker than an .223 caliber bullet, without a great risk of over penetration. Additionally, because we are speaking of home defense, mid to long range accuracy is of little importance b/c unless you live in a mansion, you'll most encounter would be (and I'm just guessing here) within 30 feet (10 yards). Shotguns have no problems with that kind of range. I see a shotgun as being even more forgiving with respect to accuracy due to the number and spread of pellets that are fired from the gun. Now again, I know I have no actual 1st hand experience in firearms for home defense, but I would also think that... say... and 870p with 6 round magazine capacity +1 in the chamber would suffice for an in-home gun battle. I mean seriously... If you cant take out your target in such a small indoor environment with 7 shots from a shotgun, you should put up iron bars and get an alarm system. As far as recoil goes, I've got a couple of thoughts on that. First, I'd think that the adrenaline factor would keep your perception of recoil down from normal as you have much greater strength during such an encounter. Secondly, my shotgun has a forward VG to help control muzzle rise and recoil, in addition to a Knoxx SpecOps stock. Recoil is not really an issue for me.

I love my AR though. Yeah, it's got a 30 round capacity (even 100 rounds if I wanted to keep my beta mag on it) which is great, but the high capacity issue could easily be looked at another way. If it takes you 30 shots to hit your target, how many of your 'misses' went through walls and put other peoples live at risk? Accuracy on my AR is great too but how bad of a shot do you have to be to miss with a shotgun at 30 or so feet. Also realize that a near miss with an AR could be an incapacitating hit with a shotgun. And as for lower recoil, well... I don't see recoil as being a problem with my shotgun.

One cannot argue that a shotgun, round for round, with the right type of load, is more destructive than an AR. They are both long guns that are aime and fired in a very similar manner, position, cheek weld, etc. Would you rather be shot in the chest by an AR or 12 ga buckshot at 25 feet? I think if you would say "AR", then you are in serious BRD denial
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 10:17:38 AM EDT
Use a Berretta CX4 Storm in.45 cal

Alternate gold dots and shot shells in your mag.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:35:21 PM EDT
AR15/M4 - 30rds LC XM193
Moss590A1 - 5rds 00 Buck 2 3/4 (6 in Side saddle/4 in stock)
Sig 226R 40cal - 12rds 180g JHP (loaded on the hot side)

M1A also but wont go there if we are talking about home use

I agree the best all around weapon is the AR/M4

I would go for a head shot with an AR if someone was holding on to one of my family members. Wouldn't try it with my shotgun and slugs.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:03:56 PM EDT
A good tatical shotgun - I believe, is the best "anti-civil disturbance" weapon you can own. No group of looters or rioters is going to mess with a determined homeowner wielding a 5-8+ rd shotgun pointed in their direction.hotgun.gif
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 3:16:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 3:21:20 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Ideally, I would prefer all armed threats to have shotguns rather than rifles.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 6:47:27 PM EDT
They are both perfectly good guns. The AR gives you a better range but the pump will not be as prone to malfunction. The SG is also not the least bit ammunition sensitive.

I have both and will not be getting rid of either in the forseeable future.

Link Posted: 9/17/2005 10:06:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2005 10:06:56 AM EDT by shotgun]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Ideally, I would prefer all armed threats to have shotguns knives rather than rifles guns.



Fixed it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 2:41:24 PM EDT
Money is always very tight with me, although I did manage to save up enough to purchase a Mossberg 590 A1 model, I was still leary about laying out that much money.

After reading these posts, I now feel that I'm better protected against scenarios like in New Orleans with what I currenty possess. I own 1 Bushmaster M4, 1 Bushmaster 20" rifle and a Springfield 45cal. and a old S&W 38 revolver with thousands of rounds of ammo.

Think I'll hold off on the mossy awhile longer.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 8:23:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
I, for one have never seen this as an "either / or" situation...I have several of both. The short barreled shotgun is more of a "specialty" weapon than the AR carbine, and cannot "compete" with the lightweight ARs for many purposes. Still, the shotgun DOES fill a niche that few other weapons can match...at least IMO.

The Buckshot-loaded short (18" or so and under) shotgun is an ideal weapon for situations where both you and your target(s) are moving, in low light, at ranges of 30yd or less, and you can probably end the engagement with 5 rounds or less. Yes, they can shoot slugs, but that is not, and never has been, their strong point. Buckshot has a "compressed downrange danger zone"...the AR does also, to some degree, but not quite the same as Buck.

The above scenario still, even today, describes a great many situations in which people...both LEOs and non-LEOs... find themselves needing a long gun...not a "SHTF' in "end of the world" proportions, just a need for something better than a handgun... but most certainly not all. It also excludes the issues of recoil...very serious compared to the AR...and pellets that do not strike the intended target...more of an issue as ranges increase. Not to mention reloading under stress, carrying spare ammo, shooting from odd positions such as prone or from the off shoulder...and what happens at longer ranges. Despite the hoopla, few shooters can connect consistently in low light, under pressure, with slugs and iron sights unless they have done some serious practice. (That said, I have a friend in E. Tennessee who ended a hostage situation some years back with a head shot using a bead sight 870 and a 1OZ slug at roughly 75 yards...he knew exactly where his gun would hit, and the hostage was tied up and not close to the bad guy)

So...I do not think you made a bad decision, but then I do not know your circumstances. I would most certainly strive to have at least one of each in my armory, and it would depend on my circumstances as to which would be first.

JMO



Ok... I simply can't better, or augument that post...

He is the MOD for a good reason it appears.
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 8:37:26 PM EDT
Everheard of a masterkey????

if you dont have the money just weld that little boom stick below the other boomstick and let the lead fly
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