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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/21/2005 12:50:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 2:43:47 PM EDT by niceguymr]
I'm a first time shotgun owner. I just purchased a Remington Police Magnum 18" Barrel with Pistol Grip and ATI Overfolder Stock. Because of the type of stock this has, there is really no padding between it and my shoulder, nor have I been able to find a buttpad for this specific model of Overfolding stock. Is this a gun that I will be able to shoot without using the stock (ie. just holding the pistol grip and forend)

Anyway, I have no idea what type of ammo to purchase.

I will be using it for the following purposes:
1) Home Defense
2) Range / Target Shooting
3) 3 gun matches

It was recommended to me that I purchase Tactical / Reduced Recoil loads. I honestly have no idea about anything regarding shotgun ammo. I don't understand any of the 'lingo' like "00" or "buck shot" or anything like that. I have no idea what any of that means. The only thing I THINK I know is that "slugs" are just one solid piece of lead and that everything else contains a varying number of pellets. Does the number of pellets affect the intensity of the recoil? Do "slugs" tend to have the greatest recoil? Should I buy any slugs? What are slugs used for anyway? Can my shotgun even handle slugs, and if so, what kind: Sabot or Rifled? Also, how does the length of the cartridge affect it's purpose and/or recoil intesidty? I believe that this gun will shoot up to 3.5 inch cartridges. How does one determine how many pellets they want in a shotgun cartridge? I realize that the fewer the pellets, the greater the penetration and concentration. Does that mean that fewer pellets will have greater recoil than many pellets that are designed to scatter more widely with less penetration?
I went on ammoman.com to get some ideas and here's a few suggestions I thought I'd probably need (please provide feedback)

12 GAUGE 4 BUCK, REDUCED RECOIL S.W.A.T. LOAD, ESTATE CARTRIDGE COMPANY
Why do they call it a "SWAT LOAD"?

FEDERAL TACTICAL 12 GA, LE 133 00 TACTICAL LOAD, 8 PELLET MAN STOPPER
"Our exclusive Tactical Shotgun offers reduced recoil, faster and more accurate follow-up shots, and the shot is hard plated for tight patterns."
Why do they call it a "Tactical Load"? And why "Man Stopper"? Aren't all of these man stoppers???

FEDERAL TACTICAL SLUGS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL
Slug means one solid piece of lead, right?

FEDERAL TACTICAL 00 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL ( 9-PELLETS )
What does "00 Buckshot mean"?

FEDERAL TACTICAL 000 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL ( 8-PELLETS )
What does "000" mean?

FEDERAL TACTICAL # 4 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT HIGH ENERGY, LOW RECOIL ( 27-PELLETS )
I take it that #4 would be like "0000" - still don't know what that means though.


Sorry for all the stupid questions, but I'm sure this is simple information for many of you.


Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:00:22 PM EDT
This should get you started:

matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/regammo.html
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:39:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
This should get you started:
matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/regammo.html



Thanks for the info. That was a good start, however it still leaves many of my questions unanswered. I'm hoping that someone (or more than one person) has the patience to read through my original post and answer as many of my questions as possible. Thanks again for your input.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:27:35 PM EDT
Many of your questions answered on my shotgun ammunition primer here.

Take care...

Brobee
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:33:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 6:35:36 PM EDT by dfariswheel]
As I can:

Is this a gun that I will be able to shoot without using the stock (ie. just holding the pistol grip and forend)
Yes, BUT.
The "But" is, by not using the stock, you've basically converted the gun into a giant pistol.
You can't shoot it like a pistol because it's too big, but you can't really aim it or point it like a shotgun either.
Recoil will be hard to handle and uncomfortable.
In truth, most people who use folding stocks or pistol grip-only setups usually go to a standard full stock after trying the gun on a real shotgun course and they realize they can't hit fast and effectively with it.
Folding stocks are really special purpose-only setups, for use in specialized applications like SWAT "door knocker" guns where the gun is actually a TOOL not a offensive or defensive weapon.
In short, a folding stock really DEcreases the effectiveness of a shotgun.


Does the number of pellets affect the intensity of the recoil?
What determines recoil is WEIGHT of shot or slug, and the amount of powder.

Do "slugs" tend to have the greatest recoil?
Often. This is due to both the weight, and the fact that slugs are usually loaded to max pressures for hunting purposes.

Should I buy any slugs?
Not for typical home defense use.
Slugs in effect turn the shotgun into just a huge smooth bore musket.
It's the "cloud" of buck shot that a shotgun fires that makes it so effective. A shotgun must be precisely aimed when using slugs, but can be "pointed" when shooting shot.
Being able to point a shotgun makes it MUCH faster to get shot on target.
A typical shotgun will shoot a pattern of shot that spreads "about" 1 inch per yard.
In other words, at 6 yards, or 18 feet, you will have a pattern about 6 to 7 inches in diameter.

Second, slugs will over penetrate walls and can be deadly for occupants in other rooms, other apartments, and even in other houses.


Does the number of pellets affect the intensity of the recoil?
Yes...But.
The "But" is, if the powder charge is reduced, so is the recoil.
Today, many users, including the police are using the new "Reduced Recoil" type shells.
These are either loads with less shot, OR the same shot but less powder.
The usual 00 buckshot load contains 9 pellets. A reduced recoil load will either have less powder, or 8 pellets.


What are slugs used for anyway?
Slugs are primarily used for hunting larger game like deer.
They are also used by police to shoot through car windows, or through doors. They pretty well require good rifle-type sights, and must be aimed as precisely as any rifle or pistol.


Can my shotgun even handle slugs, and if so, what kind: Sabot or Rifled?
Any shotgun with any STANDARD choke can shoot any STANDARD shotgun load of shot, buckshot, or slugs.
Standard chokes run from the no choke at all Cylinder Bore, to the Full choke.
STANDARD loads can be fired safely through any of the chokes, BUT when you start getting into non-standard, extra full specialty chokes, you may start to have problems.
Sabot slugs are specially made for shooting tight groups at longer ranges through RIFLED shotgun barrels.
Rifled slugs are for shooting through smooth barrels.
You can shoot the Sabot rounds in a smooth barrel, but they tend to tumble and shoot poor groups.
You can't shoot rifled slugs in a rifled barrel.


Also, how does the length of the cartridge affect it's purpose and/or recoil intesidty?
The longer shells are always loaded to maximum power and usually maximum amount of shot.
Recoil is always STIFF.
Probably 100% of the shooting you stated you wanted to do, can be done with the standard 2 3/4" shells.
The longer shells like the 3" and the 3 1/2" are really intended for hunting game like high-flying geese or turkey's where you need more shot in the air to increase chances of hits on target.


Shot shells are available in 2 3/4", 3", and 3 1/2" Magnum loads.
Understand that the word Magnum means something ENTIRELY different in shotguns, than it does in rifles and pistols.

In rifles and pistols, Magnum means MORE POWER, higher velocity.
In shotguns it means more SHOT, NOT more power or velocity.
The idea is to put more shot at the target to increase the changes of hitting it.


I believe that this gun will shoot up to 3.5 inch cartridges.
In real home defense use, the 3 1/2" loads have WAY too much recoil and will drastically slow down follow up shots.
Today, in order to get faster shots, many people are going to the Reduced Recoil loads, since these are just as effective at HD distances
.

How does one determine how many pellets they want in a shotgun cartridge?
Depends entirely on the use.
High flying geese and turkeys, you want as much shot as possible.
Home defense, depends on the size shot you use, usually standard factory loads of reduced recoil or standard buckshot will contain the right amount of shot.


I realize that the fewer the pellets, the greater the penetration and concentration.
It's not the NUMBER of pellets, it's the SIZE. A single 00 pellet will penetrate deeper than a #4 pellet.
Pellet size has nothing to do with concentration, better known as "pattern".
Pattern is determined by the type of choke your gun have, Usually, the tighter the choke, the tighter the pattern (Note, that this doesn't always hold true, especially when using buckshot.


Does that mean that fewer pellets will have greater recoil than many pellets that are designed to scatter more widely with less penetration?
Again, it's not the size or number of pellets, it's the WEIGHT of the load.
A 1 ounce load of ANYTHING will have less recoil than a 1 1/2 ounce load.
Also remember the powder charge plays a big part. The more powder known as a "Dram" equivalent) the more recoil also.


12 GAUGE 4 BUCK, REDUCED RECOIL S.W.A.T. LOAD, ESTATE CARTRIDGE COMPANY
Why do they call it a "SWAT LOAD"?
Advertising hype. Today anything called SWAT, or Tactical sells better.
However, this load would be an excellent home defense load.


FEDERAL TACTICAL 12 GA, LE 133 00 TACTICAL LOAD, 8 PELLET MAN STOPPER
"Our exclusive Tactical Shotgun offers reduced recoil, faster and more accurate follow-up shots, and the shot is hard plated for tight patterns."
Why do they call it a "Tactical Load"? And why "Man Stopper"? Aren't all of these man stoppers???
As above, "Tactical" and "Man stopper" is hype, BUT this would be an extremely good load to use.

FEDERAL TACTICAL SLUGS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL
Slug means one solid piece of lead, right?
Right. In this case, they've either reduced the weight of the slug, or the amount of powder to give less recoil.

FEDERAL TACTICAL 00 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL ( 9-PELLETS )
What does "00 Buckshot mean"?
Shot runs in size described in an old number system.
Bird shot (small shot) runs from the smallest #9, to the biggest #2, with some bigger stuff known as "BB".

Buckshot runs from the biggest #0 to the smallest #4. A pellet of #00 is about .32 caliber, and is the most popular size for a variety of reasons.
The sizes of buck, from large to small are, #0, #00, #000, #1, #3, #4.
Many experts say that the best home defense buck load is #1 buck.
It's larger and penetrates more reliably than the small #4, but offers better coverage then the larger #00.


FEDERAL TACTICAL 000 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL ( 8-PELLETS )
What does "000" mean?
Next size smaller than #00.

FEDERAL TACTICAL # 4 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT HIGH ENERGY, LOW RECOIL ( 27-PELLETS )
I take it that #4 would be like "0000" - still don't know what that means though.
As above, #4 is the smallest buckshot. 27 pellets is the standard load for it. In this case, they reduced the POWDER instead of the number of shot to reduce recoil.

Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:55:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 6:59:08 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By BrobeeBiter:
Many of your questions answered on my shotgun ammunition primer here.
Take care...
Brobee



Wow Brobee! Thanks! That was some real interesting information. I was starting to get a little lost, but then got back on track toward the end of the article.

Ok. So I gathered that the fewer number of pellets in the shell, the greater the recoil, right? (at least in most cases) That's great information, but I get the feeling that shooting only slugs is not the thing to do albeit they are the most accurate. So where's the happy medium? What type of buck shot does the average tactical shooter use? How do I know if my barrel is rifled or smoothe bored? I haven't yet even figured out how to take my shotgun apart to look down the barrel I tried shining a light through the ejection port to look down, but I couldn't say for sure if it was rifled. I looked pretty smooth, however I guess that would depend on the twist ratio. What is the twist ratio for a rifled shotgun barrel anyway?
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:14:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 7:17:47 PM EDT by niceguymr]
Thank you so much for such a greatly detaile response. I'm learning so much here and you've helped a lot. It's people like you and (others who've posted in this thread) that make ARFCOM the best gun forum on the net. THANKS THANKS THANKS! I'll be sure to consider your advice on ammo selection.

Here's another couple of stupid questions.
What is a choke?
Where is it on my shotgun?
HOw do I know if it's tight or loose?
What difference does it make?
What does it do?
Is my barrel rifled or smoothe?



Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
As I can:

Is this a gun that I will be able to shoot without using the stock (ie. just holding the pistol grip and forend)
Yes, BUT.
The "But" is, by not using the stock, you've basically converted the gun into a giant pistol.
You can't shoot it like a pistol because it's too big, but you can't really aim it or point it like a shotgun either.
Recoil will be hard to handle and uncomfortable.
In truth, most people who use folding stocks or pistol grip-only setups usually go to a standard full stock after trying the gun on a real shotgun course and they realize they can't hit fast and effectively with it.
Folding stocks are really special purpose-only setups, for use in specialized applications like SWAT "door knocker" guns where the gun is actually a TOOL not a offensive or defensive weapon.
In short, a folding stock really DEcreases the effectiveness of a shotgun.


Does the number of pellets affect the intensity of the recoil?
What determines recoil is WEIGHT of shot or slug, and the amount of powder.

Do "slugs" tend to have the greatest recoil?
Often. This is due to both the weight, and the fact that slugs are usually loaded to max pressures for hunting purposes.

Should I buy any slugs?
Not for typical home defense use.
Slugs in effect turn the shotgun into just a huge smooth bore musket.
It's the "cloud" of buck shot that a shotgun fires that makes it so effective. A shotgun must be precisely aimed when using slugs, but can be "pointed" when shooting shot.
Being able to point a shotgun makes it MUCH faster to get shot on target.
A typical shotgun will shoot a pattern of shot that spreads "about" 1 inch per yard.
In other words, at 6 yards, or 18 feet, you will have a pattern about 6 to 7 inches in diameter.

Second, slugs will over penetrate walls and can be deadly for occupants in other rooms, other apartments, and even in other houses.


Does the number of pellets affect the intensity of the recoil?
Yes...But.
The "But" is, if the powder charge is reduced, so is the recoil.
Today, many users, including the police are using the new "Reduced Recoil" type shells.
These are either loads with less shot, OR the same shot but less powder.
The usual 00 buckshot load contains 9 pellets. A reduced recoil load will either have less powder, or 8 pellets.


What are slugs used for anyway?
Slugs are primarily used for hunting larger game like deer.
They are also used by police to shoot through car windows, or through doors. They pretty well require good rifle-type sights, and must be aimed as precisely as any rifle or pistol.


Can my shotgun even handle slugs, and if so, what kind: Sabot or Rifled?
Any shotgun with any STANDARD choke can shoot any STANDARD shotgun load of shot, buckshot, or slugs.
Standard chokes run from the no choke at all Cylinder Bore, to the Full choke.
STANDARD loads can be fired safely through any of the chokes, BUT when you start getting into non-standard, extra full specialty chokes, you may start to have problems.
Sabot slugs are specially made for shooting tight groups at longer ranges through RIFLED shotgun barrels.
Rifled slugs are for shooting through smooth barrels.
You can shoot the Sabot rounds in a smooth barrel, but they tend to tumble and shoot poor groups.
You can't shoot rifled slugs in a rifled barrel.


Also, how does the length of the cartridge affect it's purpose and/or recoil intesidty?
The longer shells are always loaded to maximum power and usually maximum amount of shot.
Recoil is always STIFF.
Probably 100% of the shooting you stated you wanted to do, can be done with the standard 2 3/4" shells.
The longer shells like the 3" and the 3 1/2" are really intended for hunting game like high-flying geese or turkey's where you need more shot in the air to increase chances of hits on target.


Shot shells are available in 2 3/4", 3", and 3 1/2" Magnum loads.
Understand that the word Magnum means something ENTIRELY different in shotguns, than it does in rifles and pistols.

In rifles and pistols, Magnum means MORE POWER, higher velocity.
In shotguns it means more SHOT, NOT more power or velocity.
The idea is to put more shot at the target to increase the changes of hitting it.


I believe that this gun will shoot up to 3.5 inch cartridges.
In real home defense use, the 3 1/2" loads have WAY too much recoil and will drastically slow down follow up shots.
Today, in order to get faster shots, many people are going to the Reduced Recoil loads, since these are just as effective at HD distances
.

How does one determine how many pellets they want in a shotgun cartridge?
Depends entirely on the use.
High flying geese and turkeys, you want as much shot as possible.
Home defense, depends on the size shot you use, usually standard factory loads of reduced recoil or standard buckshot will contain the right amount of shot.


I realize that the fewer the pellets, the greater the penetration and concentration.
It's not the NUMBER of pellets, it's the SIZE. A single 00 pellet will penetrate deeper than a #4 pellet.
Pellet size has nothing to do with concentration, better known as "pattern".
Pattern is determined by the type of choke your gun have, Usually, the tighter the choke, the tighter the pattern (Note, that this doesn't always hold true, especially when using buckshot.


Does that mean that fewer pellets will have greater recoil than many pellets that are designed to scatter more widely with less penetration?
Again, it's not the size or number of pellets, it's the WEIGHT of the load.
A 1 ounce load of ANYTHING will have less recoil than a 1 1/2 ounce load.
Also remember the powder charge plays a big part. The more powder known as a "Dram" equivalent) the more recoil also.


12 GAUGE 4 BUCK, REDUCED RECOIL S.W.A.T. LOAD, ESTATE CARTRIDGE COMPANY
Why do they call it a "SWAT LOAD"?
Advertising hype. Today anything called SWAT, or Tactical sells better.
However, this load would be an excellent home defense load.


FEDERAL TACTICAL 12 GA, LE 133 00 TACTICAL LOAD, 8 PELLET MAN STOPPER
"Our exclusive Tactical Shotgun offers reduced recoil, faster and more accurate follow-up shots, and the shot is hard plated for tight patterns."
Why do they call it a "Tactical Load"? And why "Man Stopper"? Aren't all of these man stoppers???
As above, "Tactical" and "Man stopper" is hype, BUT this would be an extremely good load to use.

FEDERAL TACTICAL SLUGS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL
Slug means one solid piece of lead, right?
Right. In this case, they've either reduced the weight of the slug, or the amount of powder to give less recoil.

FEDERAL TACTICAL 00 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL ( 9-PELLETS )
What does "00 Buckshot mean"?
Shot runs in size described in an old number system.
Bird shot (small shot) runs from the smallest #9, to the biggest #2, with some bigger stuff known as "BB".

Buckshot runs from the biggest #0 to the smallest #4. A pellet of #00 is about .32 caliber, and is the most popular size for a variety of reasons.
The sizes of buck, from large to small are, #0, #00, #000, #1, #3, #4.
Many experts say that the best home defense buck load is #1 buck.
It's larger and penetrates more reliably than the small #4, but offers better coverage then the larger #00.


FEDERAL TACTICAL 000 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT, HIGH ENERGY-LOW RECOIL ( 8-PELLETS )
What does "000" mean?
Next size smaller than #00.

FEDERAL TACTICAL # 4 BUCKSHOT, LAW ENFORCEMENT HIGH ENERGY, LOW RECOIL ( 27-PELLETS )
I take it that #4 would be like "0000" - still don't know what that means though.
As above, #4 is the smallest buckshot. 27 pellets is the standard load for it. In this case, they reduced the POWDER instead of the number of shot to reduce recoil.


Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:33:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 7:47:56 PM EDT by dfariswheel]
So I gathered that the fewer number of pellets in the shell, the greater the recoil, right?
NO.
Recoil is determined by WEIGHT of the shot or slugs and the amount of powder.
A standard load of buckshot and a standard load of fine bird shot will have the SAME recoil IF the weight of the shot and powder charge is the same.
As the WEIGHT of the load goes up, so does recoil, UNLESS the amount of powder goes down.

A standard load of #00 (big) 9 pellet buckshot will have the same recoil as a load of #4 (smaller) 27 pellet buckshot.


shooting only slugs is not the thing to do albeit they are the most accurate.
If you're hunting deer or bears, or having to shoot at a many more than about 40 yards away, the slugs a are the way to go.
If you're shooting at a man in your house or backyard, you have a smooth bore musket that must be precisely aimed, or you'll flat out MISS.
It all depends on what you're shooting, and how far away it is.


So where's the happy medium? What type of buck shot does the average tactical shooter use?
Most people shoot #00, #1, or #4 depending strictly on personal preference.
Some people like Red, some like Blue. Some like bigger #00 and some like smaller #4.
Again, a good compromise size is #1 which is supposed to be the most "balistically effective".
Many people are going with the #00 or #4 Reduced Recoil for home defense, since this has MUCH less recoil, actually shoots tighter patterns, and allows faster follow-up shots.
Since it's used at closer ranges, it's as effective has full power-full pellet loads.


How do I know if my barrel is rifled or smoothe bored?
When you take the barrel off, look down it. You'll see the rifling.
Since you have a Remington 11-87, it's very unlikely that you have a rifled barrel, since these really aren't that common.
T9o determine what choke your barrel has, look on the left side of the barrel, about 3 inches in front of the receiver.
It should have a mark like, Imp Cyl, Mod, or Full.


What is the twist ratio for a rifled shotgun barrel anyway?
Sorry, ya got me there.


To disassemble your gun, just follow the owner's manual.

My suggestion: Buy a box of several brands and sizes of buckshot, take them to the range and shoot them at paper from various distances to see what size patterns they shoot.
For real home defense, stick with premium quality American made shells.

Shoot some standard buckshot loads, some Reduced Recoil, and some 2 3/4" or 3" Magnum loads to decide if your really want the Magnum ammo.
I STRONGLY recommend doing this before trying a 3 1/2" Magnum load. Likely you'll be REAL sorry if you shoot the 3 1/2" stuff. Recoil is EXTREME for most people.

Don't leave the gun's magazine loaded for long periods of time without checking the shells.
The real danger in leaving a shotgun loaded is NOT worn magazine springs, it shot shell compression.
The tension of the strong spring causes the shells to actually get compressed and develop bulges in the shells sides.
This can cause jams, especially in an auto.
The "fix" is to just shoot up your older ammo and reload with new.
Also, premium American ammo apparently has better plastic and doesn't;t compress as quickly as foreign ammo.

Sorry, missed these

What is a choke? Where is it on my shotgun?
The choke is a constriction in the muzzle of a shotgun.

How do I know if it's tight or loose?
Chokes run from the lest choke, the Open Cylinder or Cylinder bore, to the Full.
Open cylinder means no choke at all.
Full is the tightest Standard choke.
Typical chokes are : Cylinder, Improved Cylinder, Modified, Full.
In HD and combat shotguns the most common are Cylinder and Improved Cylinder.
Remington and many makers have recently started using the Improved Cylinder because it shoots slightly tighter patterns with buckshot than Open Cylinder does.


What difference does it make?
The choke is selected for the type of game you're hunting and the type of shot you're shooting.
For instance, when hunting high-flying geese you want a very tight choke so the shot stays together longer.
When shooting quail in dense cover you'd want a much more open choke so the shot opens up faster so you increase the chances of getting the bird before he enters the brush, AND to prevent blowing it to bits with TOO much shot.
In buckshot, best results depend on the shot size, with most HD guns using the Open Cylinder or Improved Cylinder.
Understand that shot versus choke is a whole science in itself, and the "rules" do not necessarily follow what I just wrote
The ONLY way to be sure about chokes and shot, is to actually take the gun out an shoot it at a patterning board.
This is a board set up at a set distance.
You shoot loads at the target measure them for size of the pattern, AND look for any "holes" where the shot failed to cover.


What does it do?
The choke actually "squeezes" the shot as it nears the muzzle and causes it to "clump" or stay together longer.
In a true inside the house gun, this may not be what you want, since the tighter the pattern, the easy it is to miss inside
.

Link Posted: 8/21/2005 9:16:44 PM EDT
Thank you again so much again for your time and imput!!!!!


Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
So I gathered that the fewer number of pellets in the shell, the greater the recoil, right?
NO.
Recoil is determined by WEIGHT of the shot or slugs and the amount of powder.
A standard load of buckshot and a standard load of fine bird shot will have the SAME recoil IF the weight of the shot and powder charge is the same.
As the WEIGHT of the load goes up, so does recoil, UNLESS the amount of powder goes down.

A standard load of #00 (big) 9 pellet buckshot will have the same recoil as a load of #4 (smaller) 27 pellet buckshot.


shooting only slugs is not the thing to do albeit they are the most accurate.
If you're hunting deer or bears, or having to shoot at a many more than about 40 yards away, the slugs a are the way to go.
If you're shooting at a man in your house or backyard, you have a smooth bore musket that must be precisely aimed, or you'll flat out MISS.
It all depends on what you're shooting, and how far away it is.


So where's the happy medium? What type of buck shot does the average tactical shooter use?
Most people shoot #00, #1, or #4 depending strictly on personal preference.
Some people like Red, some like Blue. Some like bigger #00 and some like smaller #4.
Again, a good compromise size is #1 which is supposed to be the most "balistically effective".
Many people are going with the #00 or #4 Reduced Recoil for home defense, since this has MUCH less recoil, actually shoots tighter patterns, and allows faster follow-up shots.
Since it's used at closer ranges, it's as effective has full power-full pellet loads.


How do I know if my barrel is rifled or smoothe bored?
When you take the barrel off, look down it. You'll see the rifling.
Since you have a Remington 11-87, it's very unlikely that you have a rifled barrel, since these really aren't that common.
T9o determine what choke your barrel has, look on the left side of the barrel, about 3 inches in front of the receiver.
It should have a mark like, Imp Cyl, Mod, or Full.


What is the twist ratio for a rifled shotgun barrel anyway?
Sorry, ya got me there.


To disassemble your gun, just follow the owner's manual.

My suggestion: Buy a box of several brands and sizes of buckshot, take them to the range and shoot them at paper from various distances to see what size patterns they shoot.
For real home defense, stick with premium quality American made shells.

Shoot some standard buckshot loads, some Reduced Recoil, and some 2 3/4" or 3" Magnum loads to decide if your really want the Magnum ammo.
I STRONGLY recommend doing this before trying a 3 1/2" Magnum load. Likely you'll be REAL sorry if you shoot the 3 1/2" stuff. Recoil is EXTREME for most people.

Don't leave the gun's magazine loaded for long periods of time without checking the shells.
The real danger in leaving a shotgun loaded is NOT worn magazine springs, it shot shell compression.
The tension of the strong spring causes the shells to actually get compressed and develop bulges in the shells sides.
This can cause jams, especially in an auto.
The "fix" is to just shoot up your older ammo and reload with new.
Also, premium American ammo apparently has better plastic and doesn't;t compress as quickly as foreign ammo.

Sorry, missed these

What is a choke? Where is it on my shotgun?
The choke is a constriction in the muzzle of a shotgun.

How do I know if it's tight or loose?
Chokes run from the lest choke, the Open Cylinder or Cylinder bore, to the Full.
Open cylinder means no choke at all.
Full is the tightest Standard choke.
Typical chokes are : Cylinder, Improved Cylinder, Modified, Full.
In HD and combat shotguns the most common are Cylinder and Improved Cylinder.
Remington and many makers have recently started using the Improved Cylinder because it shoots slightly tighter patterns with buckshot than Open Cylinder does.


What difference does it make?
The choke is selected for the type of game you're hunting and the type of shot you're shooting.
For instance, when hunting high-flying geese you want a very tight choke so the shot stays together longer.
When shooting quail in dense cover you'd want a much more open choke so the shot opens up faster so you increase the chances of getting the bird before he enters the brush, AND to prevent blowing it to bits with TOO much shot.
In buckshot, best results depend on the shot size, with most HD guns using the Open Cylinder or Improved Cylinder.
Understand that shot versus choke is a whole science in itself, and the "rules" do not necessarily follow what I just wrote
The ONLY way to be sure about chokes and shot, is to actually take the gun out an shoot it at a patterning board.
This is a board set up at a set distance.
You shoot loads at the target measure them for size of the pattern, AND look for any "holes" where the shot failed to cover.


What does it do?
The choke actually "squeezes" the shot as it nears the muzzle and causes it to "clump" or stay together longer.
In a true inside the house gun, this may not be what you want, since the tighter the pattern, the easy it is to miss inside
.


Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:05:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
How do I know if my barrel is rifled or smoothe bored?
When you take the barrel off, look down it. You'll see the rifling.
Since you have a Remington 11-87, it's very unlikely that you have a rifled barrel, since these really aren't that common.
T9o determine what choke your barrel has, look on the left side of the barrel, about 3 inches in front of the receiver.
It should have a mark like, Imp Cyl, Mod, or Full.




BTW... It says IMP CYL

Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:31:23 PM EDT
Then you're almost perfectly set up to shoot slugs or buckshot.

The Improved Cylinder is a straight cylinder bore with a slight choke , and is also usable for hunting some game at closer ranges with bird shot.

The Improved Cylinder is Remington's standard choke for their Police guns, and should shoot very well with any buckshot and any rifled slug.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:47:38 PM EDT
Three inch steel eights, boy, they'll handle anything from a hummingbird to the Lochness Monster.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:11:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
Then you're almost perfectly set up to shoot slugs or buckshot.
The Improved Cylinder is a straight cylinder bore with a slight choke , and is also usable for hunting some game at closer ranges with bird shot.
The Improved Cylinder is Remington's standard choke for their Police guns, and should shoot very well with any buckshot and any rifled slug.



First off DFARISWHEEL, Thank you for your reply.

So what then would make it perfect to shoot slugs or buckshot? (just curious)

Are you saying though that my shotgun is equipped to shoot pretty much most standard types of slugs and buckshots without problem?

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:13:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:19:54 PM EDT by leakycow]
dfariswheel did a good job answering your questions.

Just to clarify, the buckshot sizes go like this:

Biggest
000 (.36 cal) often found in 8-pellet "tactical" loads
00 (.33 cal) often found in 8 or 9 pellet "tactical" loads
0 (.32 cal)
1 (.30 cal)
2 (.27 cal)
3 (.25 cal)
4 (.24 cal) often found in 20-something pellet "tactical" loads
Smallest


Not to get into a long story about the history of terminal ballistics, but most studies indicate that #1 buckshot *could* be the best for HD use. It penetrates deeply enough and twelve .30 cal pellets would damage more tissue than 9 pellets of 00 (.33 cal).

However, nobody has marketed a top-notch (read: low-recoil/tactical) #1 buckshot load. Thus, you're left to choose between 00 and #4 buckshot. #4 buckshot damages a LOT of tissue, but not all of the pellets in a typical load will penetrate very deeply (for some people, this is a plus not a detriment). 00 continues its role as the historical leader in HD/LEO use.

Good luck, enjoy your shooting
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:22:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:23:39 PM EDT by leakycow]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
Then you're almost perfectly set up to shoot slugs or buckshot.
The Improved Cylinder is a straight cylinder bore with a slight choke , and is also usable for hunting some game at closer ranges with bird shot.
The Improved Cylinder is Remington's standard choke for their Police guns, and should shoot very well with any buckshot and any rifled slug.



First off DFARISWHEEL, Thank you for your reply.

So what then would make it perfect to shoot slugs or buckshot? (just curious)

Are you saying though that my shotgun is equipped to shoot pretty much most standard types of slugs and buckshots without problem?




Your gun can handle shotshells of pretty much any variety. Tiny birdshot shells for quail, dove, etc up to big buckshot loads for things that weigh 200 pounds and more.

When it comes time to shoot slugs, get "rifled" slugs. Your gun will not shoot sabot slugs very well at all, unless your target is a few feet away from you.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:31:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:38:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:56:59 PM EDT by niceguymr]
Ditto to IKOR's statement above. That's what makes this forum the best around.

Thanks everyone for all your replies thus far. I'm learning a lot. Maybe this thread should be tacked under "Shotgun Ammunition for Dummies: 101"

Here's another question:

If I want to try out some slugs, would I be better off with Sabot Slugs or Rifled Slugs? Any precautions for me on size or weight for either of those 2 choices?

OOPS!!! Question was answered above before I could even finish typing. Thanks Leakycow!!!!

Here's another question:

I see a lot of Slug type ammo for sale on both ammoman.com and outdoormarksman.com however the problem is, sometimes it doesn't say whether it's Sabot or Rifled. Whats the easiest way to tell when buying this stuff online whether it's Sabot or Rifled (if you can't see it on the box or description)?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:12:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 4:18:57 PM EDT by leakycow]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Here's another question:

I see a lot of Slug type ammo for sale on both ammoman.com and outdoormarksman.com however the problem is, sometimes it doesn't say whether it's Sabot or Rifled. Whats the easiest way to tell when buying this stuff online whether it's Sabot or Rifled (if you can't see it on the box or description)?



Hardest, but most 100% sure way: Look up the manufacturer's product code on the manufacturer's website to see what kind of slug it is.

Easier way #1: On a site like ammoman, where they are sold in bulk, you're almost surely going to be ordering rifled slugs. The vast majority of slugs used by LEOs (and thus likely to be packaged in bulk like that) are rifled slugs.

Easier way #2: Pricing. Rifled slugs are cheap, sabot slugs are more expensive (sometimes many times over). If a box of 5 slugs costs around 3 bucks, you're almost assured it's rifled.



Don't forget...just like with buckshot, terms such as "low recoil," "managed recoil," and "tactical" all mean basically the same thing when it comes to slugs...the felt recoil is reduced by lowering the powder charge (and muzzle velocity). The slug is still extremely effective, and most of the rifled slugs use soft lead that still expand to around an inch in diameter while offering deep penetration.

Many folk who shoot rifled slugs feel like expansion isn't necessary (as you've got a 70 caliber hunk of lead to begin with) and choose a harder lead slug like those made by Brenneke, which expand less (or not at all) than typical rifled slugs.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:03:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:17:49 PM EDT
Thanks all.

It helps to be retired and have the time to do this.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:18:28 PM EDT
I suggest that buchshot is not acceptable on some ranges and on some targets. 7 1/2 shot , Remington target/nitro loads for example may be useful to have handy and know how they print in your gun.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:38:25 PM EDT
If it is a sabot round, it will say so. If it doesn't say, then more than likely it falls into the "rifled" slug category.

I have to disagree partially with the comments on shooting pistol-gripped shotguns (ie, stock folded, no buttstock, or stock not being used). This can be done, it can be done accurately, and it can be done comfortably. I'm 6'1" and and 165lbs. That makes me naturally off balance and prone to heavy shotgun abuse. I prefer pistol gripped guns.

http://www.2guntom.com/454/group/Im002801wf.jpg
Winchester Defender firing Estate #4 reduced recoil

http://www.2guntom.com/454/group/Im002713wf.jpg
Single shot 20gauge w/pistolgrip

http://www.2guntom.com/454/group/Im002715wf.jpg
In the foreground is me shooting a pistolgripped Rem 870. Behind me is my brother shooting a pistolgripped Mossberg 500. Both of us are firing as fast as we can. If you look closely, you'll see my nostrils are flared. I'm not sure if that helps me shoot faster, or if I'm just sucking in burnt gunpowder fumes http://www.2guntom.com/454/group/Im002847wf2.jpg
Do slugs recoil more? Yes they do! Notice the recoil just about ejected the shell on the Mossberg pump. I shot about 10 rounds that day and I was done for several days recooping. The reduced recoil slugs are much better, kick less, and I shoot more accurately.

With everything I have shot, the pistolgrip buttstock is what I prefer. The addition of a pistolgrip forend is helpful. The fullhouse heavy shells can deliver as much as 60 ft lbs of recoil. With my slim build that can be painful. With the addition of the pistol grips fore and aft, this gives two more points to take some of the recoil. Shooting from the shoulder this gives much more control.

If you decide to shoot using the pistol grip only, start with very light shells. Something like skeet loads. Hold the gun so your wrists are straight, not tweaked. Make darn sure the back of the gun is not going to come back and hit your hip, your stomach, or your mouth (had that happen once). If you noticed in all the pictures above, my wrists are straight, and I am in control of the gun and the gun is not controlling me. Here's a pic of a properly set up defense gun and how to hold it properly off-shoulder for CQC

http://www.2guntom.com/454/group/Im003204wf.jpg
The stock is under my arm for maximum control. The wrists are straight, and the gun is held level. In extremely close encounters, an assailant will not be able to take that gun away from me. I've got a solid enough grip to strike the perp's chin with the muzzle of the gun if I can't shoot for one reason or another. I can also pivet the gun and use the butt for the final "lights out!" strike to the head. Those stocks convert the gun into a self defense tool.

As far as accuracy goes, holding the gun level is key. Don't point up to your target; take 'em straight on. I've fired countless slugs and buckshot loads "from the hip" and they all fall in the kill zone at 12 and 25 yards. The key is practice and lots of it.

Another thing to add control and comfort is the SVL (Sims Vibration Laboratory) "LimbSaver" recoil pads. I just recently tried one and I absolutely love it! They really take the kick out of the recoil. I'm going to start putting them on all my shotguns. Unfortunately I don't know how you'd get one on that folding stock. I'd advise you to look into a replacement stock, preferably a pistolgrip buttstock. Speedfeed makes a good stock, and I have no complaints on the ATI stock either.

I have a couple questions, but I'll wait.

Oh, one other thing. CLEAN YOUR GUN!! A shotgun's worst enemy is dirt. Clean it after you shoot it and it should last a lifetime. I'm not talking about just swabbing the barrel, I mean the receiver too. If there are moving metal parts, they need to be clean. I buy a lot of used pawn shop guns and I have seen what neglect will do.

I'm always tinkering with shotguns. You may find some of this educational, or at least entertaining www.2guntom.com/shotguns/intro.html

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:40:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2guntom:
I'm always tinkering with shotguns. You may find some of this educational, or at least entertaining www.2guntom.com/shotguns/intro.html
2guntomwww.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif



Thanks for all your input 2guntom!!! I enjoyed reading your website on the 870. Looks like you've had a lot of fun with it.

I've gone ahead and ordered some tactical/reduced recoil buck shot and slugs to play with, as you and others here have suggested. And insted of buying one of those nifty forends with the VG built in (like the ATI, which I like), I'm going to replace the existing forend with a Surefire picatinny forend so that I can put whichever VG I like as well as whatever tactical light I want (such as my Surefire G2 Nitro with TDI mount). I got that idea from the Wilson Combat website that someone posted above. This will also give me more options for mounting accessories in the future, alhtough I can't think of what more I'd find necessary at the moment. There's always the chance that I'll change my current ATI stock configuration to some sort of fixed stock with pistol grip, however, I'm going to see how bad I get beat up before I decide to do that. Judging from the info you provided above and on your site, I think I'll be able to manage to shoot pistol grip style without a problem, but with plenty of practice. Thanks again 2guntom.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:14:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Thanks for all your input 2guntom!!! I enjoyed reading your website on the 870. Looks like you've had a lot of fun with it.



No problem. I love my shotguns. The first real gun I ever owned was a shotgun, and I haven't been the same since. herproper length to get that last shell in.

Just curious,

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:08:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2guntom:

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Thanks for all your input 2guntom!!! I enjoyed reading your website on the 870. Looks like you've had a lot of fun with it.



Do you have any idea who manufactured that magazine tube extension that came on your gun? That looks like the proper length to get that last shell in.
Just curious,
2guntomwww.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif



Originally, I would have guessed that is a Remington part b/c that's how it came brand new shipped from the factory, however, you can see that Remington uses ATI for their overfold stock so who knows who makes the tube extension? Does Remington make one in that length or would it have to be an aftermarket extension? Where can I look on it to determine who makes it?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:16:39 AM EDT
Are there any markings on the extension? That would give us a clue if not answer our question. By visual appearances that mag extension is not a Tac Star, Choate, or Wilson Combat.

I'm digging around at the different Remington sites looking for info. I found this at the Remington Military site www.remingtonmilitary.com/870mcs.htm If that doesn't make you drool, I don't know what will. On that MCS, they offer a SpeedFeed stock and a Pachmyer pistol grip. I recognize them by appearance.

I looked at the Remington Law Enforcement site and couldn't find any clues either. I didn't see you gun offered with the overfolder.

I also struck out at the regular Remington site.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:43:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:46:30 AM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By 2guntom:
Are there any markings on the extension? That would give us a clue if not answer our question. By visual appearances that mag extension is not a Tac Star, Choate, or Wilson Combat.

I'm digging around at the different Remington sites looking for info. I found this at the Remington Military site www.remingtonmilitary.com/870mcs.htm If that doesn't make you drool, I don't know what will. On that MCS, they offer a SpeedFeed stock and a Pachmyer pistol grip. I recognize them by appearance.

I looked at the Remington Law Enforcement site and couldn't find any clues either. I didn't see you gun offered with the overfolder.

I also struck out at the regular Remington site.

2guntomwww.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif




I checked it out well and didn't see any markings on it. I did find a paper inside the original box that was titled "Remington MAGAZINE EXTENSION KIT - INSTRUCTION FOLDER AND PARTS LIST".

One step further... I took a picture of the label on the box. It's a crappy picture b/c it's a crappy camera but I hope this helps:



In case you can't read it, it says:

MODEL 870 POLICE PARKERIZED
PUMP SHOTGUN - 2 SHOT EXT
18" IC BBL 12GA BEAD SIGHT
TOP FOLD STOCK/SYN FORE-END
Made in Ilion, NY


Another thing I just recalled. When speaking to the dealer, he told me that these are a brand new batch from Remington (The one's with the Top Folding Stock and +2 Mag Ext). He said this is the first time he's ever received them, so perhaps it's new to their product line.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:10:59 PM EDT
That may be something very new.

Those extensions may be made by Remington. I looked around the Remington sites and couldn't find them offered as an accessory though.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:28:01 PM EDT
niceguymr,

I meant to thank you. I didn't know that the Estate brand #4Buck (Swat) was still being imported. I hadn't seen any for about 5 years. Thanks for the tip. Now I can quit hoarding what I have left and get morehttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:39:17 PM EDT
2guntom, are you the guy who makes the AOWs that Jeffs Shooters Supply sells in SGN? I got to get one someday.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 2:09:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jimmy_Hoffa:
2guntom, are you the guy who makes the AOWs that Jeffs Shooters Supply sells in SGN? I got to get one someday.



No. Sorry. You have me curious though. I'll have to look for that in SGN. Is the one your talking about made by Serbu?
Super Shorty

I'd love to have one or even be able to make one, but I am unwilling to jump through flaming hoops for the feds and kiss local LE official's butts.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 3:08:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 3:40:29 PM EDT by Jimmy_Hoffa]

Originally Posted By 2guntom:

Originally Posted By Jimmy_Hoffa:
2guntom, are you the guy who makes the AOWs that Jeffs Shooters Supply sells in SGN? I got to get one someday.



No. Sorry. You have me curious though. I'll have to look for that in SGN. Is the one your talking about made by Serbu?
Super Shorty

I'd love to have one or even be able to make one, but I am unwilling to jump through flaming hoops for the feds and kiss local LE official's butts.

2guntomwww.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif



Your name is "2gun tom", the page you linked to was called "2guntom.com", I saw the super shorty on there and thought you were the builder.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:01:43 PM EDT
I am 2guntom, 2guntom.com is my website, but Serbu is a manufacturer in Florida. Sorry for the confusion. I'd really love to be a manufacturer, but that will be later.

I did take a gunsmithing course from Tompson, got a 98. When I get the dayjob situation settled, I'll be taking welding and machine shop at the local college. I'm searching for a shop that will give me an apprenticeship, but I expect that I will have to relocate. All in due time.

In the meantime, I'll keep working and reworking my stuff.

My guinea pig is the shortest gun I've got. The article started here

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/nef20pistol.html

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/nef20pistol2.html

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/nef20pistol3.html

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/20pistolx.html

There's been more done to it. If I remember correctly, it started here (somewhere),

www.ezforums.org/454Casull/forum_posts.asp?TID=102&PN=1

then the most current is here

www.ezforums.org/454Casull/forum_posts.asp?TID=139&PN=1&TPN=1

My guinea pig is the 20gauge with the 18 3/4" barrel with the flashlight mounted to it. Believe it or not, with the barrel that short, I can't put the pistol grip on it any more. The NFA law of 1934 states that shotguns have to have 18" or more in barrel length and an overall length of 26" or more. I'm going to do a forcing cone job and probably ream the bore out to Improved Cylinder. I'm going to fabricate a full length forend, and probably do better sights.

Now if I were really cool, I'd be making little pocket pumps like the Super Shorty. Supposedly an individual can make their own firearms for their own use, but not to be sold to others. I'd really like to find a detailed list of do's and don'ts and what the parameters are.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
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