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Posted: 2/25/2005 8:35:21 AM EST
Who's got em? Got pics? Why go short?

This isn't one of those, "why would you have such a short barrel, that's stupid" bait thread, I swear. I love the look of the short FALs (OSW from DSA is a perfect example), but I'm curious if going so short doesn't really degrade the point of the .308 round.

I would assume anything 16" or less would be mainly for CQB and I'm all for punching bigger holes in the target, but what are the drawbacks of going short?

TIA.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 8:50:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 10:20:26 AM EST
Were the para length rifles really that short? Would have thought they'd be in the 18" length. Just guessing though...
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 12:11:10 PM EST
The Para barrels are 17.xx inches or so.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 2:48:24 PM EST
I did it purely for looks. I'm not planning on taking it to any combat zones in my lifetime.
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 3:46:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By mlm1219:
The Para barrels are 17.xx inches or so.



Some of the Argentine para's were 21" IIRC...
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 4:39:56 PM EST
My 16" l1a1 carbine.. why a short 308 - bottom line more firepower in a portable package.. I like the thump it makes at 200 and 300m on the gongs and can easiliy shoot it offhand. I figure I'm loosing a couple hundred feet per second but it still has all the energy to punch that 30cal deep inside the target. Range to extend out to 500m and penetration power .... I like the fal so much that it has replaced the AR and AK in my collection as my primary carbine.... I wouldnt go any shorter though, this one is just about right....

Was considering a SOCOM 16, AR10 carbine and PTR91 but went FAL and am glad I did...

http://members.cox.net/cancun1/fal.jpg

No impact to accuracy to boot....

http://members.cox.net/cancun1/falg.jpg
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 5:02:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By _wmd_:
My 16" l1a1 carbine.. why a short 308 - bottom line more firepower in a portable package.. I like the thump it makes at 200 and 300m on the gongs and can easiliy shoot it offhand. I figure I'm loosing a couple hundred feet per second but it still has all the energy to punch that 30cal deep inside the target. Range to extend out to 500m and penetration power .... I like the fal so much that it has replaced the AR and AK in my collection as my primary carbine.... I wouldnt go any shorter though, this one is just about right....

Was considering a SOCOM 16, AR10 carbine and PTR91 but went FAL and am glad I did...

members.cox.net/cancun1/fal.jpg

No impact to accuracy to boot....

members.cox.net/cancun1/falg.jpg



Very good!
Link Posted: 2/25/2005 7:44:50 PM EST
I recently finished an inch, 16" barrel the FH brings it to around 18" or so. I will be test firing it tomorrow. I had to do some tweeking on it from the last test fire. Mine is mainly inch but I took what I liked from different meteric/inch and built something just for me.
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 10:03:33 AM EST
FN cataloged para in 3 barrel lenghts per blake's bible
50-61 (steel lower) & 50-64 (alloy lower) in 533mm (20.984")
50-63 @ 436mm (17.165")
50-64 @ 458mm (18.031")
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 11:36:15 AM EST


That's my 16" DSA Para. With the Steyr short FS, flash is a non-issue. As far as MV...I picked up a copy of G&A's Combat Arms issue, in which there is a review of the DSA Para Carbine 16". The chronograph data is as follows:

Radway Green 150gr FMJ 2497
Rem-UMC 150gr FMJ 2542
Cor-Bon 125gr JHP 2813
Federal 168gr Gold Medal 2401
Hornady 168gr OTM 2421
Hornady 168gr TAP 2462
Black Hills 175gr OTM 2402

That's not a big loss considering the vastly improved handling you get with a short tube like this.
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 4:41:19 PM EST
Wow, that Cor-Bon is a bit hot for a FAL. I think I would leave that stuff out of a gas gun.
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 5:23:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By 50cal:
Wow, that Cor-Bon is a bit hot for a FAL. I think I would leave that stuff out of a gas gun.



Nah. The TAP 110 is faster yet, but you can just turn the gas down a bit. Besides, look at the weight.
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 7:34:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By MisterPX:
I did it purely for looks. I'm not planning on taking it to any combat zones in my lifetime.
www.hunt101.com/img/256366.jpg



That is one sweet FAL. What is the barrel length on it? I want to model my FAL after yours.
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 8:33:31 PM EST
Dang Quiet, that is truly some gun porn you've got there!

Thanks for the responses.
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 11:31:58 PM EST
Why?
Because I could, the shorty is my answer to the M-14 SOCOM, it's fast and perfect for closer engagements.
Link Posted: 2/27/2005 4:36:53 AM EST
Wayne, it's an STG built on an Imbel. 16 inch barrel, plus Austrian flash supp.
Link Posted: 2/27/2005 9:30:26 AM EST

Thank you sir.
Link Posted: 2/27/2005 4:20:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By 50cal:
Wow, that Cor-Bon is a bit hot for a FAL. I think I would leave that stuff out of a gas gun.



Nah. The TAP 110 is faster yet, but you can just turn the gas down a bit. Besides, look at the weight.



Didn't notice the 125g bullet weight. Doh!
Link Posted: 2/27/2005 4:23:12 PM EST
Flash comparison of my Para to my M4.
www.gcfirearms.com/308.mov
www.gcfirearms.com/m4.mov
Link Posted: 2/27/2005 4:30:22 PM EST
i love my para with 16" barrel. i keep planning actually to cut it to 14" and add a belgian combo device for legal barrel length.

Link Posted: 2/27/2005 4:58:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/27/2005 5:03:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shawnr1:
members.cox.net/shawn22/para4.JPG



Is that the DSA short gas system? That's sexy. You need the short rail now!
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 12:20:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/1/2005 12:22:19 AM EST by ch139]
There’s a lot of drawbacks people whine about, I did it because it’s bad ass. It most definitely wouldn’t be what I turn to first if I need a weapon. The sights are for shit, they’re zeroed at 100-yards, but I can hit tin cans at fifty too. I have no idea how fast the bullets are going when they come out the business end, but I bet if you stand in front of it, they’d hurt. The flash suppressor may or may not work depending on ammo; with Talon remanufactured ammo you’ll get a flame the size of a trash can out the front. It’s extremely LOUD, the concussion feels like it’s going to suck the fillings out of your teeth. So yeh, it pretty much sucks, no real purpose. It is kinda cute though.


Link Posted: 3/1/2005 1:31:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By ch139:
There’s a lot of drawbacks people whine about, I did it because it’s bad ass. It most definitely wouldn’t be what I turn to first if I need a weapon. The sights are for shit, they’re zeroed at 100-yards, but I can hit tin cans at fifty too. I have no idea how fast the bullets are going when they come out the business end, but I bet if you stand in front of it, they’d hurt. The flash suppressor may or may not work depending on ammo; with Talon remanufactured ammo you’ll get a flame the size of a trash can out the front. It’s extremely LOUD, the concussion feels like it’s going to suck the fillings out of your teeth. So yeh, it pretty much sucks, no real purpose. It is kinda cute though.

photos.templarfirearms.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_.01.JPG



Sounds like FUN to me!!
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 8:22:35 AM EST
Gunslinger,
nice wood!
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 5:45:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Flash comparison of my Para to my M4.
www.gcfirearms.com/308.mov
www.gcfirearms.com/m4.mov



QS what type of FHs are you using on your M4 and your Para?

Remman
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 5:55:00 PM EST
M4 is a Gemtech Bi-lock on a 14.5" M4 firing Q3131a

FAL is a Steyr Austrian short FS on a 16" Para FAL firing Aussie ball.
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 6:18:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
M4 is a Gemtech Bi-lock on a 14.5" M4 firing Q3131a

FAL is a Steyr Austrian short FS on a 16" Para FAL firing Aussie ball.



Wow that was a fast response. Thanks QS

Remman
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 5:29:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
That's my 16" DSA Para.



Nice rifle. How's that handguard? Pretty solid?
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 7:05:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2005 7:08:15 AM EST by Lon_Moer]

Originally Posted By Shawnr1:


Shawnr1, is that flash hider a Phoenix?
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 7:16:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By kc3:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
That's my 16" DSA Para.



Nice rifle. How's that handguard? Pretty solid?



Very solid.
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 10:41:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Is that the DSA short gas system? That's sexy. You need the short rail now!



Yep. Short rail system is on the list. I was trying not to get the rail sytem and scope mount........wanted to keep the weight down. I can't resist anymore.



Originally Posted By Lon_Moer
Shawnr1, is that flash hider a Phoenix?



Yep. I had it made to fit my 13" metric barrel. A couple more pics here



Link Posted: 3/4/2005 4:55:46 PM EST
StG58C


SA58C
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 5:09:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/4/2005 5:14:14 PM EST by StealthyBlagga]
I left the muzzle brake on my SA58 carbine, as I shoot mostly for fun in 3-gun matches and the recoil reduction is worth the extra blast. Upgrades are Ergo pistol grip, heat-shield in handguards, extra-long Rhodesian buttstock and Para rear-sight:

Link Posted: 3/5/2005 8:53:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2005 8:58:07 PM EST by ThunderStick]

Originally Posted By raf:

To sum, your FS might work fine, might not.




Exactly. This contradicts your other statements saying that short barrels are a bad idea 99 percent of the time. There are applications for short barreled rifles besides being lighter and really cool looking.
So let's just say they are a bad "some of the time."

The barrel length does not solely determine flash signature, rather it is also the flash suppressor and type of ammo. If they ever make a Vortex for the 13 inch OSW--you won't see any flash (Smith-Enterprises is missing out on lots 'o business by not offering Vortexes for .308s). The steyr flash suppressor on a 16 inch FAL will give you the same flash signature as a 16 inch AR with an A2 flash hider.

As for it being loud--all battle rifles are loud . Wear earplugs.
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 3:06:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2005 7:31:10 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 5:40:02 AM EST
" using the money spent on their newest "cool-looking" rifle on extra ammo and time at the range"

But what about all those people like me who won't go to the range without a cool looking rifle?
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 10:33:04 AM EST


i've recently added a flash suppressor not pictured...
Link Posted: 3/6/2005 7:49:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2005 8:46:52 PM EST by ThunderStick]

Originally Posted By raf:

There are other aspects of short-barreled rifles which render them less desirable (usually) than their longer barreled original versions. For example there is the already-mantioned increased flash and muzzle blast; the one revealing your position in the nighttime, the other during the day.



For my use, and for the use of virtually any non-military or police SWAT member these considerations are irrelevant. I hope you are aware that no ARFCOM member will encounter any situation where what you state is realistic or relevant. I don't need to hide my position at the range--which is the only place most of us shoot our rifles.

Anyways--Long barreled rifles also have flash during nighttime (without a vortex or phantom) and muzzle blast during daytime hours which could also reveal position. If I ever find myself in a domestic urban warfare situation (I know, it won't happen)-a bobbed rifle could come in very handy.




Seldom do the sights work as originally intended. In fact, usuallu only a BSZ can be set. Agreed, there are sometimes flip apertures of slightly different ranges available, but these are not common.



So what? Who cares if it isn't common? I happen to prefer a BSZ.



I do not say they are always bad.



Nice try Ace. You said that they were bad 99 percent of the time. That's pretty damn close to always. Keep backpedaling.



I admit that there may be some uses for SBRs Thanks for contadicting your first post. for which the standard rifle, pistol, SMG, shotgun, and grenade may not serve as well, if not better; I just cannot name them right off, that's all.



Well golly gee, aren't you supposed to be the EXPERT? If you can't think of any what kind of authority are you? Thanks for helping to make my point.



Let's be honest with ourselves, shall we? Most people converting their perfectly serviceable standard length battle rifles into semi-neutered short-barreled versions are doing it for the novelty aspect, not becauuse of any legitimate need. Such people would be far better off, under any circumstances imaginable, in using the money spent on their newest "cool-looking" rifle on extra ammo and time at the range.



There you go again, making silly blanket statements like "under any circumstances imaginable." There are legitimate needs for short barreled rifles. Appearances also count for everything from women to cars and believe it or not guns. Also, have you ever heard of collectors? You can't have too many rifles is my motto.



Smith Enterprise used to offer a far wider assortment of FS and MB units than now appears on their web site. Some of them can be had, still, if you know where and how.



Why don't you share this with the board? What's the big secret?



There are a number of factors influencing muzzle flash, as you have noted, not all of which are under the shooter's control at any given moment. One thing's for sure: the less, the better. Why bob the barrel of your rifle and automatically start out behind?

As for the rest of your claims, I look forward to your providing some substantion of same.



I wouldn't call what you provided or stated to be any type of substantiation.



MMmmmmmmmmmmm, not quite. If you had taken the time to research the matter, you would know that the longer-barreled rifles of the WW I era are distinctly easier on the ear than their shorter-barreled descendants of WW II. Please do at least a little research before claiming things that are patently untrue.



Please let me know when they pull that huge stick out of your ass. Are you always this condescending and obnoxious? For the record I wasn't talking about World War one rifles. The discussion is about modern rifles. I don't think anyone ('cept you of course) was interested in such rifles.

THIS IS NOT THE CURIOS AND RELICS FORUM---THIS IS THE FAL FORUM

P.S. Most of what we are discussing here relates to OPINION and TASTE. Just because others don't share your opinion doesn't mean that they are fools or don't have uses for their SBRs.

We get it. You don't like SBRs. BUT, I do and so do thousands of other gun owners. And you know what? We get LOTS of enjoyment out of our "bobbed rifles." GUNS ARE FUN!


And, you, obviously are NOT fun. Lighten up, Francis.
Link Posted: 3/7/2005 7:43:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2005 7:47:43 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 3/7/2005 9:55:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By JRussell:
Who's got em? Got pics? Why go short?

This isn't one of those, "why would you have such a short barrel, that's stupid" bait thread, I swear.

Obviously this didn't stop raf from pissing in the pool, since he did just that!

I love the look of the short FALs (OSW from DSA is a perfect example), but I'm curious if going so short doesn't really degrade the point of the .308 round.

I would assume anything 16" or less would be mainly for CQB and I'm all for punching bigger holes in the target, but what are the drawbacks of going short?

TIA.



Ignore raf, JRussell. Here's a good review of the 11 and 13 inch OSW FALs by DSA. www.dsarms.com/pdf/SOF1002.pdf It is by Soldier of Fortune Mag.

A quote from that article: "muzzle blast and flash varied by load but was substantially less than an 11 inch 5.56"

And that is with an OSW with MUZZLE BRAKE! Muzzle breaks tend to be much louder--they can increase noise by 12dB.
Link Posted: 3/7/2005 10:15:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2005 10:19:08 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 3/7/2005 10:22:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2005 5:21:34 AM EST by davidp14]
Well, I just ordered another Fal kit. I'm sending the barrel off the Moses to cut it to 14.75" and perm attach a DSA short styer FH. Oh, and he's gonna turn down the bbl to a M14 profile, should save about 4 or 5 oz.'s.

I built a similar FAL last year and put Izzy Furniture on it. The bbl was cut to 15" and a short stoll brake was added.............Of course in perfect dumbass fashion, I sold it.{ (BTW: It sold in five minutes. I got more than 30 emails from people who wanted it....guess Im not the only one)

But I still got a pic.



Short barrel FAL?.......Me Likey!!
Link Posted: 3/7/2005 10:31:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2005 10:43:13 AM EST by ThunderStick]
Edited for length and clarity-I hope.


originally by raf

Not always true. The M1917 and some of the older Arisakas were notably flash-free, due to the length of their barrels. The Japanese rifles, in particular, gave US troops a hard time, as their lacking blast and flash made the well-camouflaged Japanese shooter very difficult to find.




HELLOOOO! Are you slow? This is the FAL Forum. The comparison should be between FALs of varoius barrel lengths. We need to compare 21 inch FALs to 18 inch, to 17.25 inch, to 13 inch to 11 inch barrels--ALL of which are offered by DSA. The original poster isn't going to buy an ARISAKA, genius.

For the record Japaneses soldiers were experts at concealment. To say it was because of the Arisaka rifle is idiotic. There were Japanese soldiers still hiding out decades after the war was over.



Seldom do the sights work as originally intended. In fact, usuallu only a BSZ can be set. Agreed, there are sometimes flip apertures of slightly different ranges available, but these are not common.


So what? Who cares if it isn't common? I happen to prefer a BSZ.


That is good for you, I guess, as that's all you're likely to get. Some of us prefer adjustable rear sights.




Actually, I use optics. But that's neither here nor there.



I make no claim to "authority" or "expert" status. I, again, stand by what I said.




Thanks for admitting that you are not an expert. Neither am I.



"Legitimate needs"? What might they be that they are not better handled by other means? Still waiting for a listing of these "needs". As for appearance, I adhere to the "form follows function" school of aesthetics, and the SBR, having few, if any legitimate uses that cannot be done better by other means, has a form which follows no legitimate function. Hence, it is ugly in my eyes.




I get all I need from my shorty FAL on the range. What are your needs? What uses are practical for a civilian that cannot be provided by such rifles? Personally, I have rifles and shotguns and pistols of many types. I guess I am not as limited as you. I can pick and choose for the purpose. You sound like some anti-gunner.



You mention collectibility; I can't think of very many items which, after being bastardized, are more valuable than they were in their original form.




It ain't bastardized if it is sold that way--by the manufacturer.




Smith Enterprise used to offer a far wider assortment of FS and MB units than now appears on their web site. Some of them can be had, still, if you know where and how.


Why don't you share this with the board? What's the big secret?


If you had left the barrel alone, you wouldn't need one quite so much, now would you?




This leads me to believe that you are full of crap. This means you can't actually find these items. You were posting BS. I repeat I didn't touch the barrel, genius, I bought it that way.



There are a number of factors influencing muzzle flash, as you have noted, not all of which are under the shooter's control at any given moment. One thing's for sure: the less, the better. Why bob the barrel of your rifle and automatically start out behind?

As for the rest of your claims, I look forward to your providing some substantion of same.


I wouldn't call what you provided or stated to be any type of substantiation.


I think I've provided some historical examples to back up my case. Basic physics should take care of the rest. You however, have provided nothing in the way of substantiation.




You have not provided anything. Show me a decibel level comparison for 11", 13", 16" and 21 inch FALs. APPLES TO APPLES.



I think I must have struck a nerve. Maybe it's you who should chill out. It's only the internet, you know.



No you haven't struck a nerve, you have only shown ignorance and irrelevance.

raf, where are your links or references proving the muzzle blast and flash shortcomings of the shorty FAL? Give me an internet link or a book title and page number.

decibel levels of various rifle calibers home.sprynet.com/~frfrog2/miscelli.htm

Remember--muzzle brakes add a great deal of noise to shooters ears.

Pain Threshold 140dB
7mm 158dB
.30-06 163 dB
.44Magnum 164dB
.357Magnum 165dB
shotgun 170dB
rocket launch 180dB

All battle rifles have a report of greater than 140 dB which is the human pain threshold. Bitching about short barrel blast is irrelevant. All gunfire can and will damage your hearing. Wear hearing protection at all times when firing weapons.
Link Posted: 3/7/2005 10:51:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2005 11:03:14 AM EST by ThunderStick]
Damn, why am I engaging in a virtual tit for tat with raf? Why do I care what some unknown guy thinks? Why did I waste valuable time looking up a favorable OSW review and rifle caliber decibel levels? I don't see how some of you guys find the time to post thousands of times!

I guess I just don't understand the gall of somebody commenting on a rifle he doesn't own or shoot. I would think someone who owns and has experienced shooting the rifle is more pertinent on the subject. Muzzle flash--not a problem. Muzzle blast--not a problem unless you use a muzzle brake.

In the final analysis, my opinion, which is worth more than raf's (he wouldn't stoop so low as to own a worthless SBR) since I actually own two DSA PARAs (16" regular and 13" with shortened gas system). BUY IT!! You won't regret it. They are beautiful rifles and a lotta fun!
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 5:30:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2005 5:33:54 AM EST by davidp14]

Originally Posted By davidp14:
img75.exs.cx/img75/6131/izzyclone5ep.jpg



Waaaaaahh!!




Im such a freakin Idiot!!!!

neversellarifleneversellarifleneverse­llarifleneversellarifleneversellarifleneverse­llarifle.......
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 6:20:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/8/2005 5:42:43 PM EST
You guys are screwing up this thread. Seriously....



More pics of short FAL's please!
Link Posted: 3/9/2005 3:14:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By drew5337:
You guys are screwing up this thread. Seriously....
More pics of short FAL's please!



+1!

this pic has been pimped out all over the net, but I never get tired of it.

Link Posted: 3/9/2005 9:52:17 AM EST
Come on guys, who really fracking cares (yes, I’m a Battlestar Galactica geek too)

Ya’ll can argue the merits, or lack there of, of a short(er) barreled 7.62 weapon (SBR), but it’s pointless. I’ll bet the majority of the folks here, say 99% (couldn’t resist) are armchair warriors and will never intentionally go after man or beast with a short FAL; it’s not the brightest idea going.

So that would make the other 1% of the people here real live operators with some kind of co-dependency thing going on; really, if you’re that much of an operator, what in the hell are you doing here with all the other gun dorks and wannabes.


Originally Posted By ThunderStick:
Here's a good review of the 11 and 13 inch OSW FALs by DSA. www.dsarms.com/pdf/SOF1002.pdf It is by Soldier of Fortune Mag.

A quote from that article: "muzzle blast and flash varied by load but was substantially less than an 11 inch 5.56"

And that is with an OSW with MUZZLE BRAKE! Muzzle breaks tend to be much louder--they can increase noise by 12dB.



ThunderStick, I gotta tell ya, don’t believe everything in gun rags like SOF, those guys are full of shit. There’s no way in hell my 10-inch arf is even remotely close in blast/concussion/whatever to my 11-inch FAL.

Ultimately, the FAL is a very durable and reliable weapon, there are many very cool configurations, the carbine and SBR are just a couple.

Back to the p0rn.







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