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Posted: 4/10/2006 10:45:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 10:45:39 PM EST by Saguaro]
Recently picked up a DSA Stg58. Nice piece overall, but the length of pull is excessive for me. Any one have a line on a shorter stock? I plan on picking up a DSA para stock in the near future--is this any shorter?
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 3:08:50 AM EST
My para stock is just as long as my standard stock. I am planning on chopping about 1.5 inches out of the para stock. Haven't done it yet as I'm waiting for my receiver to be milled (for the para cover with nose).

One thing I've noticed is that the length of pull is long. From trigger to buttplate. But, if you compare the buttstock to rear sight distance to that of an AR15, it is actually pretty short.

The head and shoulder position is pretty compact depending on your stanse, it just "feels" long because your firing hand is out further.

If you shoot with square shoulders (to the target) then you can take out about 2 inches max. Any more and you will be eating the rear sight. Then again, that's just my opinion.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:12:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 4:13:09 AM EST by FALna45]
i think the shortest issued metric stock was the Israeli wood pic'd on left (then STG, Imbel, SA XL)
the stock itself is about the same length as an STG but uses a flat metal buttplate rather than a thick rubber pad.



also, putting a para stock on isn't just a stock, you also need a para lower or mods to standard, diferent bolt carrier (with return springs enclosed) &topcover which holds the B/BC & springs captive.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:24:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By FALna45:
also, putting a para stock on isn't just a stock, you also need a para lower or mods to standard, diferent bolt carrier (with return springs enclosed) &topcover which holds the B/BC & springs captive.



He mentioned going with DSA. I took it to mean the DSA para stock "kit". I comes with everything you need. Well, most of it anyway.

The downside to shortening the folder: The hinge block is dangerously close to my nose. Last thing I need is a .308 nose job.

I'm starting to think Kaiserworks lower and an ACE short stock.

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 8:39:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By want2race:

Originally Posted By FALna45:
also, putting a para stock on isn't just a stock, you also need a para lower or mods to standard, diferent bolt carrier (with return springs enclosed) &topcover which holds the B/BC & springs captive.



He mentioned going with DSA. I took it to mean the DSA para stock "kit". I comes with everything you need. Well, most of it anyway.

The downside to shortening the folder: The hinge block is dangerously close to my nose. Last thing I need is a .308 nose job.

I'm starting to think Kaiserworks lower and an ACE short stock.




Yeah, I'll get the whole kit.

I have a Stg stock on there now. I think it would be fine if the rubber buttpad wasn't so thick. I tried a G1 stock and it was much better. Unfortunately the metal buttplate doesn't fit the Stg stock, and the G1 stock is wood, which I don't like, not to mention ugly and beat-up.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:20:34 AM EST
I think shortening the para stock about an inch would be great. That's probably where I'll start.

I'll post pics on here when I get 'er done.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:29:14 AM EST
The overly long stock is the worst thing about the FAL type rifles. There is no way to assume a proper shooting stance unless you are 6-2" or have monkey arms.

What happened to the adapter for Para rifles that allowed the adaptation of an AR stock system??? A 16-18" para with the adjustable Crane stock would be SCHWEET!
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:51:27 AM EST
yup you can shorten the para stock I am sure Arizona response systems does it......kaiser works lower with a vltor 6 position collapsing stock will be how I go if I build again
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:11:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 12:12:47 PM EST by geerhed]

Originally Posted By triburst1:
The overly long stock is the worst thing about the FAL type rifles. There is no way to assume a proper shooting stance unless you are 6-2" or have monkey arms.

What happened to the adapter for Para rifles that allowed the adaptation of an AR stock system??? A 16-18" para with the adjustable Crane stock would be SCHWEET!



You makin' fun of my monkey arms???



I wonder if one could take an inch or so off the stock, and trim the recoil tube down appropriately without affecting function.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 1:04:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By geerhed:

Originally Posted By triburst1:
The overly long stock is the worst thing about the FAL type rifles. There is no way to assume a proper shooting stance unless you are 6-2" or have monkey arms.

What happened to the adapter for Para rifles that allowed the adaptation of an AR stock system??? A 16-18" para with the adjustable Crane stock would be SCHWEET!



You makin' fun of my monkey arms???



I wonder if one could take an inch or so off the stock, and trim the recoil tube down appropriately without affecting function.



Yes you can. I did this very thing for a friend of mine with his FN. We started with an Izzy light barrel stock and cut it by 1 inch. I the cut the recoil tube on the end that threads into the lower and rethreaded it. I had to shorten the recoil tube guide and I used a short butt stock screw.
Everything worked perfectly.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 4:09:42 PM EST
So tonight I punched the pin out and slid the buttstock tubes out of the hinge assembly. It is a splined pin so it take some effort to knock it out. I left my hacksaw (favorite tool) at work so I'm done until tomorrow.

I'll lop off between 1 to 1.5 inches and reassemble. It's pretty straight forward. The top tube has a plastic sleeve that just barely tucks into the hinge block. Trimming that back without taking it off will be the only intricate part. Cut off wheel will take care of it, will just have to take my time.

After I trim it, before I redrill for the pin, I will reassemble to see if one inch is enough for me. Pictures to follow.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 5:15:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By want2race:
So tonight I punched the pin out and slid the buttstock tubes out of the hinge assembly. It is a splined pin so it take some effort to knock it out. I left my hacksaw (favorite tool) at work so I'm done until tomorrow.

I'll lop off between 1 to 1.5 inches and reassemble. It's pretty straight forward. The top tube has a plastic sleeve that just barely tucks into the hinge block. Trimming that back without taking it off will be the only intricate part. Cut off wheel will take care of it, will just have to take my time.

After I trim it, before I redrill for the pin, I will reassemble to see if one inch is enough for me. Pictures to follow.



Cool, definitely post pics (before and after if possible). I'd like to see how it turns out.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:41:34 PM EST
I want to see how this comes out.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 6:44:06 PM EST
I can't wait to see this. I would like to chop about 2-2.5" off the length of the FAL stock.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:32:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 5:36:15 PM EST by want2race]
2.5 is pretty drastic. You could take a Para stock all the way up to the center brace if you really wanted to. My upper was just sent to CGW (I don't have a lathe), otherwise I'd show you the whole thing.

This is a 1.25 inch chop. Still have to drill the hole and reinstall pin. I was working on something else and it got late.

Before:

After:



Trigger is still just as accesible as before, when stock is folded. If you cut it down 2 inches the stock may interfere with trigger access (except you south paws).

My nose is all up on the sling swivel if it is flipped towards the rear (it is forward in pic).
1.25 inches made a huge difference.

I should snap a pic with my AR next to it for reference.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 7:07:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By want2race:
2.5 is pretty drastic. You could take a Para stock all the way up to the center brace if you really wanted to. My upper was just sent to CGW (I don't have a lathe), otherwise I'd show you the whole thing.

This is a 1.25 inch chop. Still have to drill the hole and reinstall pin. I was working on something else and it got late.

Before:
tinypic.com/vd1e82
After:
i2.tinypic.com/vd1el1.jpg


Trigger is still just as accesible as before, when stock is folded. If you cut it down 2 inches the stock may interfere with trigger access (except you south paws).

My nose is all up on the sling swivel if it is flipped towards the rear (it is forward in pic).
1.25 inches made a huge difference.

I should snap a pic with my AR next to it for reference.



Very cool. Thanks. I'd be interested in hearing how you like it when you get your upper back. How difficult was the mod? What tools did you end up using?
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 12:05:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 12:09:21 AM EST by mister2]
Geerhed and Saguaro,

I gather your question is whether a fixed (non-Para) stock can be shortened?
Short answer: Yes
Long answer : yes, not by much, but maybe that's all you need.

The theory is to look at the tolerances and reduce them in the non-critical areas. Do NOT try shortening the rat tail, or springs. Where mods to a Para stock can be done with a saw, the fixed stock should be worked with a file or sander. Careful fitting of the buttpad (converting to a plate) and finessing the recoil nut (and tube) is where you can gain the greatest reduction. Eventually, you may find it possible to remove 1/2 to 5/8 inch from the LOP and that may be enough to make the rifle easier to handle.

The Izzy wood stock is the best starting point, though I've been able to get a Century down to the same LOP, as well.

Finally, if you are in any way NOT qualified, do not try this at home. See your gunsmith. As always, your mileage, and his, may vary (YMMV).

MR2

Link Posted: 4/13/2006 2:21:35 AM EST
I really like the look and function of the standard buttstock. I considered swaping over to Para internals yet still run the standard buttstock.

Switching to para guts would allow more aggresive work on the buttstock. No worries about rat tail length or spring tube/spring length.

I still may go this route with my non para FAL. Working with a wood stock would be much easier than a hollow plastic one. Starting from wood, cut to length, re-shape, relocate sling swivel. Then hand it over to someone familiar with Carbon Fiber. I've already seen a few CF buttstocks.
This is obviously the high dollar route. Cutting down the para folder was the cheapest, easiest route.

Tool list. Hammer, punches, metal saw, rubber mallet, vise, drill press with bits, and the nerve to hack on a $$$ DSA buttstock.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 2:59:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 3:02:25 AM EST by mister2]
Duno how much Century and Izzy stocks cost now, but they were ~$10 apiece, used, when I did mine. Full stock is much more comfortable than folder anyday, to me.

Undoubtedly, for LOP reductions > 1/2 - 5/8 inch, Para is the only possible route. Under that, nothing comes economically close to modding the fixed (wood or plastic) stock.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:09:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 9:21:15 PM EST by Gewehr3]
want2race,

How did you drive the pin out of the para stock? Any tricks? Mine won't budge. I tried penetrating oil, heat, and a BF hammer.


About 2 years ago, I cut about a 3" section out of an Imbel synthetic stock and using fibergalss and bondo rejoined the ends for a short stock. I then removed 3" from the middle of the standard recoil tube and welded the ends together. I used a para recoil system. I took the normal 14.5 LOP down to 11.5" to better suit the squared fighting stance plus I have short arms. I have found that 11.5" LOP too short and had the rear sight banging into my glasses. This becomes a major problem in the prone postion. I ran this set-up through a Pat Rogers Carbine course a few years ago.

An adjustable LOP stock would be optimal. A 12.5 to 12.75 LOP woud be useful with a fixed stock.

I'd like to move the sling swivel on para stocks lower and away from the shooter's face.

Nice pics!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:48:27 AM EST
I took the hinge block and stock off of the receiver first. I have an H&K hockey puck I use as a punch block, set that on my bench and started in on it. I used a stout tapered punch and my gunsmith hammer (inside joke, it's a claw hammer). My hinge block looked staked on the bottom hole so I drove it up through the top. Plus if the splined pin is installed from the top it will have to be removed that way.

I still haven't redrilled the stock tubes yet. I wanted to finish my AR pistol. I'll get to it this weekend.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 7:01:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By want2race:
My nose is all up on the sling swivel if it is flipped towards the rear (it is forward in pic).



Have you ever fired a FAL with your face that close? You better be careful.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 8:49:12 AM EST
Thanks for the caution. I sometimes forget how much my other FAL kicked before I put the Holland on it. It had a short Belgian on it first and it kicked harder than a .300WM bolt gun. No kidding. That's with the gas system adjusted properly too. Now with the Holland it moves less than an AR.

This para has a 13 inch barrel and long Browning FH. I will have to see how the recoil is.

My saving grace is that if I remove the sling swivel, my nose will slide right past the hinge block instead of smacking into it.

I did some mock up before coming up with the 1.25 inch chop. As long as I keep my head up (proper position for me) it will be fine, hopefully. We'll see.

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