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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4/28/2002 6:19:20 PM EDT
Hey guys,
I was thinking on using the 16" M4 for deer hunting with short ranges, but would like some more punch. I was thinking maybe a Winchester/Marlin lever action in 30/30. What kind of "brush gun" would this be? Are these generally accurate? How about light? Figure I throw a low power "scout" type scope on and I would be pretty well set. I like to take long walks through the woods, looking for deer. How would this suit me?

What about a syn stock, 18" Rifled bbl 870 with say some rifle sights and a low powered scope? Are these generally pretty accurate? What about weight of these?

Ranges would most likely be from 40-60 yards. With the occasional 100yd shot. Like I said, this is mostly walk and shoot gun.

I've never owned a lever action, so I am new to the whole thing. Any other calibers I shoult consider? Whats a decent lever go for? Are there any 870s in the configuration I mentioned? I think 20ga would be ideal.

The idea is to be light with little recoil, Thats why I am tempted to use the AR... Don't want to get any unpleasant looks though

Any suggestions would be great. Thanks!

-Jared
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 6:29:27 PM EDT
i would say the 30/30 is a good bet. a shotgun could maybe be made as accurate, but it would cost more, and not have as good ballistics.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 6:38:41 PM EDT
I have a Marlin .30/30 that I use in the same way you are describing. I have shot 1.5" groups with it at 100 yards, which is definately good enough for deer.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 12:17:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2002 12:36:09 PM EDT by Maddog50]

Originally Posted By Grizzly660:
Any suggestions would be great.



I have a Marlin .30-30 with a 16.5" barrel, synthetic stock, and Aimpoint red dot scope. It is extremely cool, and very accurate (~1" @ 100 yards). It is a roadhunter's dream. It does have much more recoil than the .223.

If you are concerned about recoil, scratch the slug gun.


Originally Posted By Grizzly660:
The idea is to be light with little recoil, Thats why I am tempted to use the AR... Don't want to get any unpleasant looks though



That said, I'd say go with the AR. Dealing with "unpleasant" looks will be character building. What are they going to do? After all, you are the one with the AR!

The AR will do just fine within 100 yards on deer, especially with a good scope on it. I would probably suggest a 16" slim profile barrel to keep weight down, shorty handguards, and a flattop receiver so you can mount a scope neatly. No need for a flash suppressor. Consider going with a smaller magazine to save weight. You would probably be better off to lose the front sight, too.

If you put your bullets where they belong, I don't see why a 64gr Power Point or perhaps even a 55gr Ballistic Tip wouldn't do the job. Just don't expect to drop one if you shoot it in the butt.

Yesterday I shot a hog with a .30 cal ballistic tip with an impact velocity of around 2400 fps. The bullet expanded nicely to over .60", retaining much of its weight. With the lower muzzle velocities of the 16" bbl, I suspect the ballistic tip will have less of a tendency to vaporize on impact than you might expect.

Consider also the Remington model 7. It is also available in .223.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 12:37:52 PM EDT



If you put your bullets where they belong, I don't see why a 64gr Power Point or perhaps even a 55gr Ballistic Tip wouldn't do the job. Just don't expect to drop one if you shoot it in the butt.

Yesterday I shot a hog with a .30 cal ballistic tip with an impact velocity of around 2400 fps. The bullet expanded nicely to over .60", retaining much of its weight. With the lower muzzle velocities of the 16" bbl, I suspect the ballistic tip will have less of a tendency to vaporize on impact than you might expect.




Personally, I would recommend shying away from the 55gr ballistic tip. It's a great bullet for small game hunting (coyotes, prarie dogs, etc.), but it expands much too quickly for reliable use on deer-sized game. I know what you mean about the .30 cal BTs doing very well, but keep in mind they are designed as medium/big game bullets, with thicker jackets, etc. The "varmint class" BTs are designed to expand much more violently. Also, they will expand violently even at comparatively low velocities.

I'd use either the 64gr Winchester or (better yet) the 60gr Nosler Partition, which was designed with this application in mind.

Link Posted: 4/29/2002 12:45:32 PM EDT
The Marlin 30-30 is an ideal gun for this situation. Effective to 100 yards and change, light, compact, flat (not much to snag brush with). Slap a 1.5 or 2x scout scope on it, use the AO lever scout mount, and you're good to go. Used Marlins go for about $200 in my neck of the woods.

Another possibility is one of the Ruger .44 Mag carbines: the old ("Deerslayer?") automatic, the new "Deerfield" automatic, or the 96/44. Sleek, compact, effective. My dad is a big fan of the old automatic .44. These are no longer made but go for around $300 in good condition. Recoil is slightly lighter than the 30-30.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 12:51:32 PM EDT
i would also second the ruger .44
here in michigan, you either hunt deer in the open, or more commonly at less than 100 yds. the .30-30 is very popular as is the .35 remington. unfortunately, MI state law prohibits the use of .223 for deer hunting, but it would be very effective with proper shot placement.
the ruger mini thirty is also a good choice.
the only reason i go with these choices is low recoil,good intermediate power. the rugers i mentioned are not exactly match accuracy.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 2:27:49 PM EDT
Literally millions of Winchester 94s and Marlin 1893s and the successor 336s have been cranked out in .30-30 and .32 Remington, which is nearly identical. Millions of deer have been taken with these rifles as will many more. In PA, it is often a youth's "first" deer rifle, and they can be had at local gun shops, WalMarts, and gun shows for fairly reasonable money. If you buy used, look especially at the muzzle crown for damage. Some of these trade-ins haven't had the best of care.

My personal preference runs to Marlin, only because of the side ejection and ease of top-mounting the scope. Marlin has shifted back to using Ballard type rifling instead of the Micro-Groove rifling, which worked for jacketed bullets but was iffy for cast or swaged lead bullets. You could use cast bullets in a newer rifle, but a used one is almost certainly Micro-Grooved.

Accuracy in a lever can be negatively affected by the front barrel band tightness and the magazine tube screw tightness and force against the barrel. A friend has a "Big Bore" Win 94 in .375 Winchester, a great deer cartridge. It patterned 6" groups until I completely removed the magazine and fired it single shot and got 1.5" groups with the same ammo. I refitted the mag tube and front band, and filed away some of the diameter and length of the mag tube screw so that it did not bear on the recess in the barrel, no contact force at all. I only snugged the front band screw to allow the band to "float" a bit on the barrel and mag tube. The group opened maybe another 1/4", but still shoots 2 MOA or under. For a brush gun, that's just fine.

Also, in PA we are prohibited from using semi-autos, so that leaves levers and bolts. If your state allows autos, consider the SKS. With the right load the 7.62x39 approximates the .30-30 in performance. Finding the right load might be a problem unless you have a close by full-service gun shop, or you reload. Five-round mags are available from places like Tapco and other mail order houses.

For prices, you won't find them lower than right now. No one is shopping for a deer rifle at the moment with spring gobbler going on. Canvass the stores and any upcoming shows and bring one home!

BRS

Link Posted: 4/29/2002 3:53:43 PM EDT
IMO, Deer gun= bolt action. Ruger is making a compact M77 that can be had in .308. Good balance, handy, indestructable and ultra reliable. I'll have one by next season, too bad they don't make it in 30-06.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 4:10:36 PM EDT
It is really hard to be a lever-action as a shorter range deer gun(potent round, quick follow-up, short and light). I have used one sucessfully for many years to pick of whitetails and muleys up to 200yds with no problems. The thuddy-thuddy may get some crap from time to time, but is a good cartridge. I would choose the Marlin platform---solid top to mount scope on. That and I never did like the (older) Winchesters that threw hot brass down my shirt collar.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 4:17:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vortex:
IMO, Deer gun= bolt action. Ruger is making a compact M77 that can be had in .308. Good balance, handy, indestructable and ultra reliable. I'll have one by next season, too bad they don't make it in 30-06.



I agree but I use the R 77K in 7.62x93mm but of course on this web site you can kill a elephant at 300 yds. with an M4.

GG
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 4:20:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 5:38:59 PM EDT
My vote would be for an AR-15 in 7.62x39. In fact, I plan to eventually give this one a whirl on deer.



Light, compact, accurate, and, unlike most lever actions, can use pointed bullets. If you've aleady got an AR, all you need is the upper receiver assembly.

Link Posted: 4/29/2002 5:46:54 PM EDT
Hey guys,
Secrectly, I made this thread to try and talk myself out of using the AR for hunting. But it seems like it might be a good choice. Its going to be a hard choice between the AR, and the 30/30 Lever.

I don't want a bolt gun for my walks through the woods. Follow up shots are almost non exsistant. Sure, I might not get a follow up shot on the same animal, but if theres big daddy buck behind them, I don't want to miss that oppurtunity.

I killed my first deer that way, Walked about 3 miles total, and harvested a doe, on the run, with a 12ga Auto 5 Browning. The problem with that, is the MoFo is heavy!

I am really liking the idea of the AR for short ranges. After all, thats really I shoot at 100 yards or less. I am a bow hunter at heart, so anything longer than that, seems more liking shooting, and not hunting.

Are there any factory loads available in 64 grain PowerPoint, or 60 Nosler? I am not set up for reloading quite yet.

My planned setup would be, 16" M4A3 upper, with EOTECH 552 and ARMS #40 mounted... Any thoughts?

-Jared
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 6:05:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grizzly660:
Hey guys,
I was thinking on using the 16" M4 for deer hunting with short ranges, but would like some more punch.

The AR10 carbine fits that description exactly.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 6:34:12 PM EDT
I'd seriously consider a mini-30. I use one occasionally for stalking deer, and it performs well. The gun is light, well balanced, and fun to shoot. Ammo is very cheap too. The major draw back is accuracy (>3" at 100yds w/ great optics). Also killing power is limited in my opinion, but then again I normally shoot a 25.06 or 7mm rem mag. ZT
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 6:49:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zutrooper:
I'd seriously consider a mini-30. I use one occasionally for stalking deer, and it performs well. The gun is light, well balanced, and fun to shoot. Ammo is very cheap too. The major draw back is accuracy (>3" at 100yds w/ great optics). Also killing power is limited in my opinion, but then again I normally shoot a 25.06 or 7mm rem mag. ZT



I would really stay away from the Ruger Minis. For less than a Mini-30 costs, you can buy a 7.62x39 upper receiver assembly for your AR-15. And if hunting is your only concern, you can simply use 5 rounds of 7.62x39 ammo in your current USGI mags. No need to buy anything else except ammo. My 7.62x39 AR carbines will do 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with A2 open sights. Not too shabby.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 2:42:39 AM EDT
Marlin 336 .35 Rem
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 3:41:54 AM EDT
Now thats an interesting Idea. A 7.62X39 upper.. Is there a way to build one of these? What does the average 7.62X39 upper go for? Is the recoil comparable to the .223?

What bbl configuration would you recomend?

-Jared
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 4:02:31 AM EDT
Its cheaper to buy an SKS or an AK if you want to sling some 7.62x39. Also, you can take pictures of hunting with an AK and prove Sarah Brady wrong.

Kharn
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 4:08:27 AM EDT
Remington 1100 20 guage...rifled barrell...sabot slugs.........
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 4:16:52 AM EDT
Personally I would go with a 12ga slug gun for shorter distances for several reasons.
First of all the knock down power is more than enough to ranges of 125 yds from personal experience. Accuracy at 100yds need not be better than 3-4 inches and that is typical of my patterns with my slug gun. I think I spent a total of 250$ a few years ago for a new Mossburg 500 and a 2X scope. By far the cheapest gun I own, and for what I is used for, it works great. The last nice thing about it, is it is a decreased liability in comparison to some of my other fire arms. I hunt on the edge of town and feel comefortable that at 300 yds my bullet is definetly in the dirt.

I doubted the knock down power initially. I set up a 44mag 1/2 inch steel spinner target at 65yds. I shot it once, squarly, it blew the target out of the ground and put a huge dent right in the center of the steel plate. At the muzzle, a 1oz slug has the equivlent energy of a 30:06.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 4:35:05 AM EDT
Another vote for a Ruger .44 with scope rings that will allow you to use the irons.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 5:05:27 AM EDT
The year=1991. The ideal cheap short deer rifle=Chinese SKS for $90. I had one. At 250 yards, I had no trouble keeping a full mag on a police silhouette, with a bone stock rifle. My buddy and his old Colt SP-1 frankengun only hit the paper about half the time. Handy but ergonomics suck.

My Rem 1100 shotgun with 20" barrel and rifled chokes shoots 3-4" groups at 100 yards, I like it alot. It's short and handy, and handles nice. Another good option but the kick is pretty hefty and range somewhat limited.

A lever action carbine in 30-30 is on my wish list. A great classic cartridge, a proven, handy, and great handling weapon. What more could you want?

Pick your priorities in what you want from the weapon, and go from there.

P.S. Even though it is legal in some states, I don't recommend .223 for deer unless you are knowledgable enough to pick the right ammo load and take the right shots. Not everyone is, no flame on you.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 5:32:15 AM EDT
Quietshoz, I beg to differ. Michigan does allow 223 to be used for hunting deer. I took deer this year with my AR. I specifically looked it up to make sure I could use it. The manual clearly said 223 was OK. I looked it up because of comments I saw here on AR15.com. That being said I might not use it again. I want my deer dead as fast as possible. Thinking about a 300mag.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 5:46:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dale007:
Quietshoz, I beg to differ. Michigan does allow 223 to be used for hunting deer. I took deer this year with my AR. I specifically looked it up to make sure I could use it. The manual clearly said 223 was OK. I looked it up because of comments I saw here on AR15.com. That being said I might not use it again. I want my deer dead as fast as possible. Thinking about a 300mag.



I agree with Dale. I believe that it's legal in MI to harvest deer with any centerfire rifle. (Not everywhere in the state, of course.)
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 5:47:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grizzly660:
Now thats an interesting Idea. A 7.62X39 upper.. Is there a way to build one of these? What does the average 7.62X39 upper go for? Is the recoil comparable to the .223?

What bbl configuration would you recomend?



You can build up your own 7.62x39 upper. DPMS and maybe Olympic Arms still produce 7.62x39 AR-15 specific parts. These include the barrel, bolt, and extractor.

Probably easier to just buy one of the Colt 7.62x39 upper receiver assemblies, however. These are available in A2 upper/16" barrel, flat top upper/16" barrel, and flat top/20" barrel configurations. The prices tend to run in the $400-$500 range. Keep an eye on the For Sale forums and various firearms boards for them as they come up for sale fairly regularly.

For a light, compact, easy to handle brush gun, I'd go with a 16" barrel. A 7.62x39 upper receiver assembly will really turn your AR into a whole different gun.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 7:14:56 AM EDT
check your mail.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 7:21:06 AM EDT
I can't believe only 1 person suggested an AK variant for deer hunting. It has as much punch as a 30/30 and is great for brush hunting. Anything under 100yds is going to be done for. I have a Marlin 30/30 and although great, I would opt for the AK anyday.

AR would also be a great choice if your state allows .223. Mine doesn't.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:07:54 AM EDT
Just helped a friend sight in a BLR in .243 yesterday. I had 3 shots touching at 100 yds. with 85 gr. Partition and Vita V powder.
Light, short barrel, shoots well.

30-30 will also work with no problems. One of the ammo companies is loading a good bullet in addition to the regular flat points. I don't remember who or what though.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 4:26:21 PM EDT
When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought he was hunting midget deer.

In any case, a .30-30 and 7.62x39 hit about the same. It's up to you if you want a semi or lever. (my brother in law has a bolt-action .30-30, but I don;t know if anyone makes them any more)

Personally, I'd second an AR-10 carbine.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 4:47:13 PM EDT
I think the way to go would be an AR with a spare 7.62x39mm upper. Hunting whitetails with a .22 rifle, even a centerfire, seems somewhat unethical. Maybe even mean.
The 7.62x39mm has very similar ballistics to a .30-30 but the .30-30 costs about $1.00 a shot. 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 will run about $90.00. You do the math.

There are guys who will hand load partition bullets for hunting for that round. I don't know if Hornady is making a Light Magnum in 7.62x39, but if they are that would be a good round for whitetails at less than 200M.

This way if you get the AR you have a .223 for fun and small game and a 7.62x39 for fun and hunting big game.
But that is just my $0.02.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 5:09:45 PM EDT
Look for a Savage 110. I found a 300 win mag made in the late 60's or early 70's for $175. That's cheaper than a Rem Express 870. It has a standard barrel and I lightened it by putting a composite stock on it. Its acurracy will suprise you.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 5:49:27 PM EDT
The key in any of these calibers is the bullet. Barnes X bullets will really perform well on game. Basically like shooting a little propeller thru'em, pentrate very deep for the size bullet. One very inexpensive light rifle is the New England handi-rifle single shot. Some of them are really good shooters. Can get several calibers .223, .30-30(can use pointed bullets in the single shot), 44mag, .243, and others and order other barrels for reasonable prices. Of course what would be really cool would be that Savage scout rifle in 7'08. The cheapest rifle would be a Polish or Russian M44 carbine in 7.62x54R (but kicks like an '06). They go wholesale for about $50 bucks and if the deer start looking at you funny you can unfold the bayonet.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 3:49:58 PM EDT
Go an AR in 7.62x39

Or buy an AK47 with a muzzle break. No recoil then! I heard that ballistics are comparable to a 30/30, but I'd rather get some outside opinions before I took stock in that.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 7:32:23 AM EDT
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Ruger#3,
very short,light and available in several good smaller-medium game calibers. They readily
accept scopes and are very accurate with no or
minimal tuning.This model also lends itself well to customizing if you can't keep your
hands off! If you don't reload yet, this is
a tight-chamber action that does not allow the
brass to expand much,making it easy to use
minimalist(Lee)hand loading tools.Around
south Texas these guns sell for$175-$350
depending on condition/caliber but even with
a "beater" the bores are still good.
Regards,Chuck Hunt
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 7:38:04 AM EDT
Short range deer gun, thats easy. .458SOCOM upper!! you can load it with a 300gr Barnes X that will absolutely crush a deer out past 200 yards! Mine will shoot ~1" at 100 yards so it will do just fine for killing deer. Plus you will have all the knockdown power you need.

Link Posted: 5/3/2002 8:13:44 AM EDT
I think I remember reading in Field & Stream that in the U.S.A. more deer have been taken with the venerable .30-30 than any other single cartridge. That being said here's my $.015 worth.

The Marlin 1895SS in .45-70 is a great rifle. You will be able to use it for more than deer if you ever so desire. The also make a shorter version that has a ported barrel called the Guide Gun. If you want to kick it up a notch, send it to Wild West Guns www.wildwestguns.com for their Co-Pilot or Guide treatment/upgrade. Wild West prefers to start with the 1895SS because it has a pistol gripped stock instead of the straight grip. (Better for handling recoil)

If you can find one at a gun show, the Winchester model 88 is the best of both worlds. Lever gun action, bolt gun one piece stock. I know they made them in .308 and .243. I think they might have made them in .358 as well, but I'm not positive.

We have to use shotguns here in Ohio, but given my choice, I'd go with the right caliber rifle.

RLTW

Link Posted: 5/9/2002 4:50:15 PM EDT
Hey guys,
Thought I would revive this thread. Seems like the best idea would be the 7.62x39 upper, sounds like fun! I don't have a preban, so I won't be able to attach a bayonet if the deer look at me funny, but I think I will be able to do..

I have a few questions. Who's 7.62 upper should I go with? What would be the proper twist rate for hunting type ammo?

I plan on getting a flat top, are there any scope mounts that allow the use of a conventional scope (i.e. Non red dot) that still allows the use of the iron sites? That way I would be able to put a say 2x7, or 3x9 scope on it, and sit in the stand.

Otherwise, I have ordered a ARM's #40, and a EOTech 552 that I think would work great for pounding brush, and those fast shots. Seems like I could track a deer in the sights pretty good with the 0-200 apature on the AR. Its for an M4 upper I have also have ordered.

The more I think about this, the better it sounds. Seems like a fun deal. I already have a bushy 20" in .223, and another lower for the m4 upper. It seems like I would be best off with a 16" bbl. Does anyone make a M4 profile bbl, in 7.62x39? No, I don't wanna look like an armchair commando. I am just looking to save weight.. What about a lightweight bbl? Would it stand up to the abuse? How heavy is a 16" HBAR? Would it seem out of balance? I plan on using an A2 stock as well.

Next question... Handguards... Keep in mind, that I will most likely be wearing lightweight gloves... Should I go with a M4 type handguard, a CAR type, or a Free Float? I am trying to see which would work better with gloves? Something big, or something a bit smaller...

Should I leave the bbl bare, or go with a muzzle brake? I most likely won't be going through tons of rounds at the range, but who knows? How much recoil is there? Would it be worth it to have a muzzle brake. Keep in mind I'd like the fastest possible follow up shots possible... That leaves one last question. Chrome lined, or not?

Ok, one more and I am done. Generally, how accurate are the 7.62x39 AR's configured with a 16" bbl? 1moa, 2moa? Any ideas?

Ok, one more, and I am done for real... Could anyone recomend a factory load?

Any other suggestions would be great.

Thanks!

-Jared
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