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Posted: 2/1/2019 4:11:27 PM EDT
As a private individual, am I able to ship a stripped lower via USPS priority mail?  Obviously it will be going to an FFL for the final transfer. Thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 5:56:38 PM EDT
No. (Unless you are a licensed dealer or manufacturer)
USPS regs classify firearms that are concealable as a "handgun".
Domestic Mail Manual
431.2 Handguns

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
a.Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm which has a short stock, and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 431.1, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.
b.Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
c.Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels that are less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.
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Link Posted: 2/1/2019 6:03:12 PM EDT
Yes.

Its not a complete firearm, but a rifle unless marked pistol.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 6:06:37 PM EDT
In for a definitive answer, I've seen both arguments in previous threads and had erred on the side of caution when shipping
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 6:09:00 PM EDT
Its a frame or receiver, not a pistol or revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.

Good to go in my opinion.

I have shipped several as a non licensee and declared them as firearms.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 6:55:22 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Yes.
Its not a complete firearm, but a rifle unless marked pistol.
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Quoted:
Yes.
Its not a complete firearm, but a rifle unless marked pistol.


Quoted:
Its a frame or receiver, not a pistol or revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.

Good to go in my opinion.

I have shipped several as a non licensee and declared them as firearms.
Didn't read a damn thing in that copypasta did ya?

"Good to go in my opinion" means your opinion is bunk.

For fucks sake.
1. It's a firearm.
2. It is capable of being concealed on the person.
3. What you shipped is immaterial, what the USPS counter monkey allowed is immaterial.
4. What matters is complying with a USPS regulation, which if violated means you'll never own a firearm again.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 7:51:56 PM EDT
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Quoted:
In for a definitive answer, I've seen both arguments in previous threads and had erred on the side of caution when shipping
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Dogtown gave the definitive answer. A few years back it was legal, as USPS had their own definition, which would have allowed. But they have since adopted the ATF definitions of a firearm, and thus it is no go.

431.1 Firearm
The following definitions apply:

Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 7:58:34 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Didn't read a damn thing in that copypasta did ya?

"Good to go in my opinion" means your opinion is bunk.

For fucks sake.
1. It's a firearm.
2. It is capable of being concealed on the person.
3. What you shipped is immaterial, what the USPS counter monkey allowed is immaterial.
4. What matters is complying with a USPS regulation, which if violated means you'll never own a firearm again.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes.
Its not a complete firearm, but a rifle unless marked pistol.


Quoted:
Its a frame or receiver, not a pistol or revolver or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.

Good to go in my opinion.

I have shipped several as a non licensee and declared them as firearms.
Didn't read a damn thing in that copypasta did ya?

"Good to go in my opinion" means your opinion is bunk.

For fucks sake.
1. It's a firearm.
2. It is capable of being concealed on the person.
3. What you shipped is immaterial, what the USPS counter monkey allowed is immaterial.
4. What matters is complying with a USPS regulation, which if violated means you'll never own a firearm again.
I read it, and have mailed them with permission from my local postmaster because it was NOT and SBR receiver, and it was NOT a complete firearm, and because it was NOT a pistol.

I read those regs before.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:05:04 PM EDT
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Quoted:

I read it, and have mailed them with permission from my local postmaster because it was NOT and SBR receiver, and it was NOT a complete firearm, and because it was NOT a pistol.
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Quoted:

I read it, and have mailed them with permission from my local postmaster because it was NOT and SBR receiver, and it was NOT a complete firearm, and because it was NOT a pistol.
No one is making that argument.....because a firearm frame or receiver isn't any of those things.

I read those regs before.  

Did you read this one?

Why its dumb to ask the USPS about guns
433 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of firearms. Mailers requesting additional information should be referred to the ATF. Further advice and ATF contact information is available at http://atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensing.html.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:07:22 PM EDT
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Quoted:
No one is making that argument.....because a firearm frame or receiver isn't any of those things.


Did you read this one?

Why its dumb to ask the USPS about guns
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I read it, and have mailed them with permission from my local postmaster because it was NOT and SBR receiver, and it was NOT a complete firearm, and because it was NOT a pistol.
No one is making that argument.....because a firearm frame or receiver isn't any of those things.

I read those regs before.  

Did you read this one?

Why its dumb to ask the USPS about guns
433 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of firearms. Mailers requesting additional information should be referred to the ATF. Further advice and ATF contact information is available at http://atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensing.html.
It doesn't matter because shipping a stocked lower doesn't violate any of those regulations.

Ever shipped a broken down shotgun?

ETA: Even shipping a stripped lower not marked "pistol" will comply with the law.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:07:32 PM EDT
I would like a legit legal perspective on this.  I’ve re-read the USPS guidelines numerous times and the clear take-away is that handguns can’t be shipped by a non FFL, but rifles and shotguns can be shipped.  In other words, SOME firearms can be legally shipped.  So receivers are clearly defined as firearms, but what makes them fall under the handgun classification and not the rifle classification?
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:13:43 PM EDT
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Quoted:
It doesn't matter because shipping a stocked lower doesn't violate any of those regulations.  
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Quoted:
It doesn't matter because shipping a stocked lower doesn't violate any of those regulations.  
A firearm frame is a firearm. Doesn't matter if it has the stock attached or not.
Firearms capable of being concealed on the person are classified as "handguns" by USPS and not mailable except by dealers and manufacturers.

Ever shipped a broken down shotgun?  
Yes.
But if you'll read the regs you'll note that:
1. USPS does not prohibit disassembly.
2. Shotguns and rifles are clearly mailable by anyone.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:16:35 PM EDT
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Quoted:
..... So receivers are clearly defined as firearms, but what makes them fall under the handgun classification and not the rifle classification?
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Quoted:
..... So receivers are clearly defined as firearms, but what makes them fall under the handgun classification and not the rifle classification?
Again
431.2 Handguns

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
a.Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm which has a short stock, and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 431.1, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.
b.Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
c.Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels that are less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:26:53 PM EDT
I just find it odd that the USPS arbitrarily defines a rifle receiver as a handgun because a single part (which does nothing on a stand alone basis) is concealable. Hell... “concealable” is even ambiguous.  There are bullpup rifles that many would consider concealable.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:28:02 PM EDT
Thanks for all of the input fellas. Sounds like I will ship it FedEx. Don’t want to run afoul of technicality with the USPS regulations.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:28:58 PM EDT
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Quoted:
A firearm frame is a firearm. Doesn't matter if it has the stock attached or not.
Firearms capable of being concealed on the person are classified as "handguns" by USPS and not mailable except by dealers and manufacturers.

Yes.
But if you'll read the regs you'll note that:
1. USPS does not prohibit disassembly.
2. Shotguns and rifles are clearly mailable by anyone.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't matter because shipping a stocked lower doesn't violate any of those regulations.  
A firearm frame is a firearm. Doesn't matter if it has the stock attached or not.
Firearms capable of being concealed on the person are classified as "handguns" by USPS and not mailable except by dealers and manufacturers.

Ever shipped a broken down shotgun?  
Yes.
But if you'll read the regs you'll note that:
1. USPS does not prohibit disassembly.
2. Shotguns and rifles are clearly mailable by anyone.
Are you trying to prove my point for me? AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked. No assumption is made as to how they will be completed.

I have also mailed 10-22, enfield and rem 700 receivers through USPS. Those can be built into pistols. Are you saying there is a problem?

Around 1999-2000 I mailed a warrantied bushmaster receiver to them via a USPS label they sent me. Problem?

I mail by USPS in accordance to the law, and it is clearly written.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:30:17 PM EDT
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Quoted:
I just find it odd that the USPS arbitrarily defines a rifle receiver as a handgun because a single part (which does nothing on a stand alone basis) is concealable. Hell... “concealable” is even ambiguous.  There are bullpup rifles that many would consider concealable.
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They don't.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:35:15 PM EDT
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Quoted:
I just find it odd that the USPS arbitrarily defines a rifle receiver as a handgun because a single part (which does nothing on a stand alone basis) is concealable.
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Quoted:
I just find it odd that the USPS arbitrarily defines a rifle receiver as a handgun because a single part (which does nothing on a stand alone basis) is concealable.
Size matters.

Hell... “concealable” is even ambiguous.  There are bullpup rifles that many would consider concealable.  
Well, no.

USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:44:16 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Are you trying to prove my point for me?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't matter because shipping a stocked lower doesn't violate any of those regulations.  
A firearm frame is a firearm. Doesn't matter if it has the stock attached or not.
Firearms capable of being concealed on the person are classified as "handguns" by USPS and not mailable except by dealers and manufacturers.

Ever shipped a broken down shotgun?  
Yes.
But if you'll read the regs you'll note that:
1. USPS does not prohibit disassembly.
2. Shotguns and rifles are clearly mailable by anyone.
Are you trying to prove my point for me?

No, but I think you are having difficulty in comprehending what is written.

AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked. No assumption is made as to how they will be completed.
100% horseshit.
That you believe this pretty much explains your ignorance of Federal law, ATF regs and USPS regs.

I have also mailed 10-22, enfield and rem 700 receivers through USPS. Those can be built into pistols. Are you saying there is a problem?
Uh, well yeah......since USPS regs clearly state what is allowed. And mailing such is only legal by a dealer or manufacturer.
Whether they can only be built into pistols or rifles or shotguns DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT.
What matters is that a firearm frame or receiver IS A FIREARM and IS CAPABLE OF BEING CONCEALED ON THE BODY.

Around 1999-2000 I mailed a warrantied bushmaster receiver to them via a USPS label they sent me. Problem?
Probably not. As RenegadeX pointed out above, USPS regs have changed over the years. What you did legally then may not be legal now.

I mail by USPS in accordance to the law, and it is clearly written.
FFS man.....I've shown you chapter and verse and you clearly are not in accordance with the law.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:44:36 PM EDT
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Quoted:

Size matters.

Well, no.

USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
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Quoted:

Size matters.

Well, no.

USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
The ATF says:

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A); 27 CFR 478.31]
The ATF also says that a lower that was a rifle can never legally be a pistol, so as long as the lower WAS from a rifle it is always a rifle, and not a pistol.

The lower is not a functioning firearm, and the USPS makes this distinction by specifying SBRs and SBSs as well as parts that can be assembled into a pistol, and therefore has established that they are talking about functional firearms.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:45:55 PM EDT
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Quoted:
AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked.
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Whoever told you this does not know the 1st thing about firearms law.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:47:26 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Around 1999-2000 I mailed a warrantied bushmaster receiver to them via a USPS label they sent me. Problem?
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As I pointed out, the regulations were changed a few years ago. What you could to 15+ years ago is no longer relevant.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:48:26 PM EDT
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Quoted:

No, but I think you are having difficulty in comprehending what is written.

100% horseshit.
That you believe this pretty much explains your ignorance of Federal law, ATF regs and USPS regs.

Uh, well yeah......since USPS regs clearly state what is allowed. And mailing such is only legal by a dealer or manufacturer.
Whether they can only be built into pistols or rifles or shotguns DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT.
What matters is that a firearm frame or receiver IS A FIREARM and IS CAPABLE OF BEING CONCEALED ON THE BODY.

Probably not. As RenegadeX pointed out above, USPS regs have changed over the years. What you did legally then may not be legal now.

FFS man.....I've shown you chapter and verse and you clearly are not in accordance with the law.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't matter because shipping a stocked lower doesn't violate any of those regulations.  
A firearm frame is a firearm. Doesn't matter if it has the stock attached or not.
Firearms capable of being concealed on the person are classified as "handguns" by USPS and not mailable except by dealers and manufacturers.

Ever shipped a broken down shotgun?  
Yes.
But if you'll read the regs you'll note that:
1. USPS does not prohibit disassembly.
2. Shotguns and rifles are clearly mailable by anyone.
Are you trying to prove my point for me?

No, but I think you are having difficulty in comprehending what is written.

AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked. No assumption is made as to how they will be completed.
100% horseshit.
That you believe this pretty much explains your ignorance of Federal law, ATF regs and USPS regs.

I have also mailed 10-22, enfield and rem 700 receivers through USPS. Those can be built into pistols. Are you saying there is a problem?
Uh, well yeah......since USPS regs clearly state what is allowed. And mailing such is only legal by a dealer or manufacturer.
Whether they can only be built into pistols or rifles or shotguns DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT.
What matters is that a firearm frame or receiver IS A FIREARM and IS CAPABLE OF BEING CONCEALED ON THE BODY.

Around 1999-2000 I mailed a warrantied bushmaster receiver to them via a USPS label they sent me. Problem?
Probably not. As RenegadeX pointed out above, USPS regs have changed over the years. What you did legally then may not be legal now.

I mail by USPS in accordance to the law, and it is clearly written.
FFS man.....I've shown you chapter and verse and you clearly are not in accordance with the law.
You are doing the mental gymnastics of a guy full of fear.

They spell it out nice and clear, and ATF regs back it up.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:49:58 PM EDT
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Quoted:

The lower is not a functioning firearm, and the USPS makes this distinction by specifying SBRs and SBSs as well as parts that can be assembled into a pistol, and therefore has established that they are talking about functional firearms.
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Again, did you miss my post where USPS said frame or receivers are included?
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:53:09 PM EDT
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USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
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For the record, the more I read the more I agree with your interpretation.  But the above section is where things get fuzzy for me.  So a rifle has a 16" barrel and 26" OAL.  But as soon as you break it into a smaller part, it becomes a handgun?  I understand that it's a firearm no matter what, but the handgun definition by USPS bothers me.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:57:39 PM EDT
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Quoted:
For the record, the more I read the more I agree with your interpretation.  But the above section is where things get fuzzy for me.  So a rifle has a 16" barrel and 26" OAL.  But as soon as you break it into a smaller part, it becomes a handgun?  I understand that it's a firearm no matter what, but the handgun definition bothers me.
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The actual law/regulation is you cannot ship concealable firearms. Does not matter if it is handgun, silencer, rifle, machine gun etc. Case Law has upheld a shotgun with OAL of 24 inches as concealable. So instead of quoting the actual term ("Concealable firearm"), they distill it to firearms then know - handguns, SBR, SBS, though this is incorrect. So it does not become a handgun, it becomes a concealable firearm.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 8:59:55 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Again, did you miss my post where USPS said frame or receivers are included?
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Quoted:
Quoted:

The lower is not a functioning firearm, and the USPS makes this distinction by specifying SBRs and SBSs as well as parts that can be assembled into a pistol, and therefore has established that they are talking about functional firearms.
Again, did you miss my post where USPS said frame or receivers are included?
Nope. It defines them as firearms for the sake of definition, and makes no distinction to define them as rifles or pistols, or whether or not an non-licensee can ship them.

The code further specifies by defining types of weapons, and therefore specifies functionality.

I will do things exactly how the law describes.

Not as some fearful cuck who doesn't know how to read.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:02:58 PM EDT
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The ATF says:

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Quoted:
Quoted:

Size matters.

Well, no.

USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
The ATF says:

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A); 27 CFR 478.31]
Before you go quoting ATF FAQ's you might want to read the citations to the US Code and the Code of Federal Regulations at the end...….'cause that FAQ answer is wrong and has been wrong for a decade or more.

The ATF also says that a lower that was a rifle can never legally be a pistol, so as long as the lower WAS from a rifle it is always a rifle, and not a pistol.
But, but, but.....that's NOT what you wrote above is it?
1. a firearm frame or receiver is exactly that a frame or receiver.
2. What is marked on that AR lower DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT.
3. Firearm frames or receivers remain "Other firearms" until assembled into a complete rifle, pistol, shotgun. firearm or NFA firearm.

The lower is not a functioning firearm, and the USPS makes this distinction by specifying SBRs and SBSs as well as parts that can be assembled into a pistol, and therefore has established that they are talking about functional firearms.
Wrong.
They mention a
Whether a firearm is functional is not mentioned anywhere but in your head.
Using your logic a broken revolver is mailable by a nonlicensee because it is not functional.

431.2 Handguns

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person WTF are you ignoring this? Because.... you know why.(for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
a.Handgun (including pistols and revolvers) means any firearm which has a short stock, and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand and subject to 431.1, or a combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled. This is because GD nitwits say "its just machine parts, mail it"
b.Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, Not limited to....means what to you? short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
c.Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels that are less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.
Since you really want to believe that a frame or receiver isn't
431.1 Firearm

The following definitions apply:
a.Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
b.Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Frames and receivers usually (but not always) include the firearm serial number and are usually considered to be the regulated component of a firearm.
Notice that USPS doesn't give a rats ass if that frame, receiver or lower was new, used, virgin or was removed from a rifle, shotgun or handgun.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:05:17 PM EDT
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For the record, the more I read the more I agree with your interpretation.  But the above section is where things get fuzzy for me.  So a rifle has a 16" barrel and 26" OAL.  But as soon as you break it into a smaller part, it becomes a handgun?  I understand that it's a firearm no matter what, but the handgun definition by USPS bothers me.
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Quoted:


USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
For the record, the more I read the more I agree with your interpretation.  But the above section is where things get fuzzy for me.  So a rifle has a 16" barrel and 26" OAL.  But as soon as you break it into a smaller part, it becomes a handgun?  I understand that it's a firearm no matter what, but the handgun definition by USPS bothers me.
No, its still a rifle.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:06:45 PM EDT
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Quoted:

Nope. It defines them as firearms for the sake of definition, and makes no distinction to define them as rifles or pistols, or whether or not an non-licensee can ship them.
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Well Good Luck. Most people can read this and clearly see frames or receivers are firearms, and concealable firearms are banned, thus frames are banned.

31 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
The following definitions apply:

Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).

431.2 Handguns
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:09:23 PM EDT
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Quoted:
No, its still a rifle.
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Quoted:


USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
For the record, the more I read the more I agree with your interpretation.  But the above section is where things get fuzzy for me.  So a rifle has a 16" barrel and 26" OAL.  But as soon as you break it into a smaller part, it becomes a handgun?  I understand that it's a firearm no matter what, but the handgun definition by USPS bothers me.
No, its still a rifle.
Why are you a schizo?
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:11:07 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Nope. It defines them as firearms for the sake of definition, and makes no distinction to define them as rifles or pistols, or whether or not an non-licensee can ship them.
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The lower is not a functioning firearm, and the USPS makes this distinction by specifying SBRs and SBSs as well as parts that can be assembled into a pistol, and therefore has established that they are talking about functional firearms.
Again, did you miss my post where USPS said frame or receivers are included?
Nope. It defines them as firearms for the sake of definition, and makes no distinction to define them as rifles or pistols, or whether or not an non-licensee can ship them.
USPS doesn't define frames or receivers as rifles or pistols BECAUSE THEY DEFINETHEM AS...…...FIREARMS!

The code further specifies by defining types of weapons, and therefore specifies functionality.
Citation please?

I will do things exactly how the law describes.

Not as some fearful cuck who doesn't know how to read.
You have two licensed dealers in this thread who disagree with nearly everything you've written. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really need to listen when RenegadeX posts. He's been a FFL/SOT for a lot longer than my ten years.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:12:03 PM EDT
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Quoted:

Well Good Luck. Most people can read this and clearly see frames or receivers are firearms, and concealable firearms are banned, thus frames are banned.

31 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
The following definitions apply:

Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).

431.2 Handguns
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
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I guess you missed the part where they clarified things for you.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:12:49 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Why are you a schizo?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
For the record, the more I read the more I agree with your interpretation.  But the above section is where things get fuzzy for me.  So a rifle has a 16" barrel and 26" OAL.  But as soon as you break it into a smaller part, it becomes a handgun?  I understand that it's a firearm no matter what, but the handgun definition by USPS bothers me.
No, its still a rifle.
Why are you a schizo?
Don't be obtuse. A disassembled rifle is still a rifle.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:15:10 PM EDT
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Quoted:
You have two licensed dealers in this thread who disagree with nearly everything you've written. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really need to listen when RenegadeX posts. He's been a FFL/SOT for a lot longer than my ten years.
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Keep in mind this is a guy who wrote:

AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked.

His knowledge of firearms laws is zero.

I guess if I mark my AR-15 receiver "Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range" Some how it becomes a Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range. ROFL.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:15:38 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Keep in mind this is a guy who wrote:

AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked.

His knowledge of firearms laws is zero.

I guess if I mark my AR-15 receiver "Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range" Some how it becomes a Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range. ROFL.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
You have two licensed dealers in this thread who disagree with nearly everything you've written. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really need to listen when RenegadeX posts. He's been a FFL/SOT for a lot longer than my ten years.
Keep in mind this is a guy who wrote:

AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked.

His knowledge of firearms laws is zero.

I guess if I mark my AR-15 receiver "Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range" Some how it becomes a Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range. ROFL.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:17:20 PM EDT
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Quoted:
USPS doesn't define frames or receivers as rifles or pistols BECAUSE THEY DEFINETHEM AS...…...FIREARMS!

Citation please?

You have two licensed dealers in this thread who disagree with nearly everything you've written. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really need to listen when RenegadeX posts. He's been a FFL/SOT for a lot longer than my ten years.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

The lower is not a functioning firearm, and the USPS makes this distinction by specifying SBRs and SBSs as well as parts that can be assembled into a pistol, and therefore has established that they are talking about functional firearms.
Again, did you miss my post where USPS said frame or receivers are included?
Nope. It defines them as firearms for the sake of definition, and makes no distinction to define them as rifles or pistols, or whether or not an non-licensee can ship them.
USPS doesn't define frames or receivers as rifles or pistols BECAUSE THEY DEFINETHEM AS...…...FIREARMS!

The code further specifies by defining types of weapons, and therefore specifies functionality.
Citation please?

I will do things exactly how the law describes.

Not as some fearful cuck who doesn't know how to read.
You have two licensed dealers in this thread who disagree with nearly everything you've written. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really need to listen when RenegadeX posts. He's been a FFL/SOT for a lot longer than my ten years.
FFLs are usually the worst source of info for what non-licensed individuals can do in regard to these things.

You can keep quoting their codes, but you are tripping all over yourself trying to prove your point, even though its all right there in plain english.

The OP says he is shipping to an FFL.

The law is completely clear on what he can do.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:18:04 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Don't be obtuse. A disassembled rifle is still a rifle.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


USPS regs pretty much mirror ATF:
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
For the record, the more I read the more I agree with your interpretation.  But the above section is where things get fuzzy for me.  So a rifle has a 16" barrel and 26" OAL.  But as soon as you break it into a smaller part, it becomes a handgun?  I understand that it's a firearm no matter what, but the handgun definition by USPS bothers me.
No, its still a rifle.
Why are you a schizo?
Don't be obtuse. A disassembled rifle is still a rifle.
Exactly, and so is a stripped rifle receiver.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:19:29 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Keep in mind this is a guy who wrote:

AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked.

His knowledge of firearms laws is zero.

I guess if I mark my AR-15 receiver "Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range" Some how it becomes a Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range. ROFL.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
You have two licensed dealers in this thread who disagree with nearly everything you've written. You can disagree with me all you want, but you really need to listen when RenegadeX posts. He's been a FFL/SOT for a lot longer than my ten years.
Keep in mind this is a guy who wrote:

AR15 receivers are rifle receivers unless otherwise marked.

His knowledge of firearms laws is zero.

I guess if I mark my AR-15 receiver "Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range" Some how it becomes a Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range. ROFL.
If I'm selling one of my receivers, it came off a rifle.

ATF says it can never be a pistol, and therefore it is a rifle.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:21:30 PM EDT
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If I'm selling one of my receivers, it came off a rifle.

ATF says it can never be a pistol, and therefore it is a rifle.
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No "therefore"

ATF says it is a receiver. Just read the directions on the 4473.

Wrong again, wrong always it seems.

Please enlighten is as to what markings you can put on a AR-15 receiver that makes it not rifle.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:27:40 PM EDT
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Quoted:

No "therefore"

ATF says it is a receiver. Just read the directions on the 4473.

Wrong again, wrong always it seems.

Please enlighten is as to what markings you can put on a AR-15 receiver that makes it not rifle.
View Quote
Please explain to me how the ATF has already ruled that a rifle is always a rifle, and can not be built into a pistol.

For an FFL you don't seem to know why the mossberg shockwave exists, and how ar pistols can be built.

You can pretend that you didn't know exactly what I was talking about, but that would imply that you are less than intelligent.

I have several Mega lowers marked "PISTOL".

ETA: From the factory. Spikes does it also.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:31:52 PM EDT
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FFLs are usually the worst source of info for what non-licensed individuals can do in regard to these things.
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FFLs are usually the worst source of info for what non-licensed individuals can do in regard to these things.
Says you?

You can keep quoting their codes, but you are tripping all over yourself trying to prove your point, even though its all right there in plain english.
Then enlighten us Zed.

The OP says he is shipping to an FFL.
Well no kidding. That doesn't change a thing.
1. Frames and receivers are concealable firearms.
2. USPS says firearms capable of being concealed on the person are shipped as "Handguns"
3. USPS "Handguns" are only mailable between:
432.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:
a.Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
b.Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing between governmental museums without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in 432.21 through 432.24 and Exhibit 432.25.
c.Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 and are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include Adult Signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
d.Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
e.Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.
Soooo...……...who are those parties?
432.21 Authorized Persons

Subject to 432.22, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, a licensed importer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties, and upon filing the required affidavit or certificate:
a.Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.
b.Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.
c.Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
d.USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.
e.Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.
f.Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.
g.Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 432.21c through e.
Odd, but WHERE THE HELL DOES IT SAY A NONLICENSEE CAN MAIL A USPS DESIGNATED "HANDGUN" TO AN FFL?
Oh.....it doesn't.

The law is completely clear on what he can do.
Yes it is.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:35:25 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Says you?

Then enlighten us Zed.

Well no kidding. That doesn't change a thing.
1. Frames and receivers are concealable firearms.
2. USPS says firearms capable of being concealed on the person are shipped as "Handguns"
3. USPS "Handguns" are only mailable between:
Soooo...……...who are those parties?
Odd, but WHERE THE HELL DOES IT SAY A NONLICENSEE CAN MAIL A USPS DESIGNATED "HANDGUN" TO AN FFL?
Oh.....it doesn't.

Yes it is.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
FFLs are usually the worst source of info for what non-licensed individuals can do in regard to these things.
Says you?

You can keep quoting their codes, but you are tripping all over yourself trying to prove your point, even though its all right there in plain english.
Then enlighten us Zed.

The OP says he is shipping to an FFL.
Well no kidding. That doesn't change a thing.
1. Frames and receivers are concealable firearms.
2. USPS says firearms capable of being concealed on the person are shipped as "Handguns"
3. USPS "Handguns" are only mailable between:
432.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:
a.Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
b.Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing between governmental museums without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in 432.21 through 432.24 and Exhibit 432.25.
c.Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 and are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include Adult Signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
d.Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
e.Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.
Soooo...……...who are those parties?
432.21 Authorized Persons

Subject to 432.22, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, a licensed importer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties, and upon filing the required affidavit or certificate:
a.Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.
b.Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.
c.Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
d.USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.
e.Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.
f.Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.
g.Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 432.21c through e.
Odd, but WHERE THE HELL DOES IT SAY A NONLICENSEE CAN MAIL A USPS DESIGNATED "HANDGUN" TO AN FFL?
Oh.....it doesn't.

The law is completely clear on what he can do.
Yes it is.
Is this what FFLs do when you contradict their all-knowing gun knowledge?

Post the same shit over and over again? I have already addressed all this.

You guys are like children.

The law is clear.

You do your thing, and I'll do mine.

Feel free to keep throwing tantrums.

ETA: I just realized that you tried to change the argument to mailing handguns. You are PATHETIC.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:40:27 PM EDT
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Quoted:

If I'm selling one of my receivers, it came off a rifle.

ATF says it can never be a pistol, and therefore it is a rifle.
View Quote
What that receiver can legally be reassembled as does not change it's definition under Federal law or ATF regulations.
When you ship a firearm frame or receiver to a licensed dealer he is required by Federal law to record what he actually received....in this case a firearm frame/receiver.
He doesn't record "rifle", because an AR lower doesn't have a barrel......and that's part of the definition of "rifle" in ATF regs.

True. That lower cannot be reassembled as anything other than a "rifle", because that would make the new configuration "made from a rifle"....and requiring a tax stamp as an SBR. But that does not change the definition of the firearm you shipped.

So, when the receiving FFL transfers your AR lower to your buyer, the FFL will check "Other firearm" on Que 16 of the Form 4473 and on Que 27 record "receiver".
You should read the instructions on the Form 4473.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:42:40 PM EDT
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Quoted:

What that receiver can legally be reassembled as does not change it's definition under Federal law or ATF regulations.
When you ship a firearm frame or receiver to a licensed dealer he is required by Federal law to record what he actually received....in this case a firearm frame/receiver.
He doesn't record "rifle", because an AR lower doesn't have a barrel......and that's part of the definition of "rifle" in ATF regs.

True. That lower cannot be reassembled as anything other than a "rifle", because that would make the new configuration "made from a rifle"....and requiring a tax stamp as an SBR. But that does not change the definition of the firearm you shipped.

So, when the receiving FFL transfers your AR lower to your buyer, the FFL will check "Other firearm" on Que 16 of the Form 4473 and on Que 27 record "receiver".
You should read the instructions on the Form 4473.
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I will just let you try to keep changing the argument, and let that stand as how ridiculous you are being over the simple fact that he can USPS mail a rifle receiver to an FFL.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:43:55 PM EDT
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Quoted:

ETA: I just realized that you tried to change the argument to mailing handguns. You are PATHETIC.
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Well...…..that's what has been discussed since my first post.
USPS classifies firearm frames and receivers as "handguns" if they are capable of being concealed on the person.

You really should just stop posting and take a nap, cause you are embarrassing yourself.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:44:14 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Please explain to me how the ATF has already ruled that a rifle is always a rifle, and can not be built into a pistol.
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Quoted:
Please explain to me how the ATF has already ruled that a rifle is always a rifle, and can not be built into a pistol.
Because the law says so.

Quoted:
I have several Mega lowers marked "PISTOL".

ETA: From the factory. Spikes does it also.
So you think marking it a pistol makes it a pistol and not a rifle?

LOL You have not posting a single correct thing in this thread.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:47:16 PM EDT
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Quoted:

I will just let you try to keep changing the argument, and let that stand as how ridiculous you are being over the simple fact that he can USPS mail a rifle receiver to an FFL.
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Quoted:

I will just let you try to keep changing the argument, and let that stand as how ridiculous you are being over the simple fact that he can USPS mail a rifle receiver to an FFL.
Does the item the OP is mailing meet the following definition?
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns

A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.
No, it fucking doesn't.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:50:56 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Because the law says so.

So you think marking it a pistol makes it a pistol and not a rifle?

LOL You have not posting a single correct thing in this thread.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Please explain to me how the ATF has already ruled that a rifle is always a rifle, and can not be built into a pistol.
Because the law says so.

Quoted:
I have several Mega lowers marked "PISTOL".

ETA: From the factory. Spikes does it also.
So you think marking it a pistol makes it a pistol and not a rifle?

LOL You have not posting a single correct thing in this thread.
I'm waiting for someone to post a pic of their SAFE-SEMI-AUTO marked AR lower and watch this guy melt down.
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:53:12 PM EDT
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Quoted:

Because the law says so.

So you think marking it a pistol makes it a pistol and not a rifle?

LOL You have not posting a single correct thing in this thread.
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Because you said so, right?

I guess you are less........
Link Posted: 2/1/2019 9:55:24 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Because you said so, right?
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No, because there is no law that says marking it pistol makes it a pistol. But if you know of one, post it.

You know 99.9999999% of all pistols are not marked pistol right? So I guess you think that makes my Glock 17 a rifle......
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