User Panel
Posted: 8/17/2006 9:52:40 AM EDT
Just found out the sheriff of my county will NOT sign the form 4 for the transfer of a suppressor. hereI have a second home in a different county. If the sheriff will sign off there, can I bring the rifle back to the original county without the suppressor? (to shoot unsuppressed and for cleaning)
Thank you in advance |
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Which State? It may help those in the know help you.
NC, for example, absolutely requires the county sheriff to sign the form 4. The LLC route does NOT allow you to get around this requirement in NC. |
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Setting up Trust instead of Corp for NFA items I am curious how NC justifies the below since quite clearly, on Form 4, it defines a person as person/LLC/Corp/Trust.
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I am in Colorado, in Douglas County. I have heard about LLC and am doing some research on it now. Please list any other solutions. Thank you.
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I might be in compliance of FEDERAL law, but I would not be in compliance with NC STATE law. NC firearms laws spell out the requirement for obtains/possessing NFA items. If you/the LLC/the Corp do not fullfill the requirements, no signature. Some county sheriffs maintain a more "liberal" interpretation of the requirements and will sign. My sheriff won't (unless your in his family/his doctor/a big campaign contributor/etc., but that's another story. I've beaten this horse for two years now. |
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If you the Sheriff of the other county will sign, you do not need to notify the "non-signing" sheriff what you have or where you take it. Now having said that, there are some states that have counties that you must notify the local CLEO that you have NFA items. But this is not the norm in most NFA friendly states. I have heard that if you talk to the "non-signing" CLEO, and explain that there are ways around, his not signing off, such as the LLC option. That has changed their stance about whether or not to sign. Hell, I would threaten a lawsuit, if in fact it is legal in your state to own NFA items, and you personally have a clean criminal record. And before I get flamed. Yes, I know the last thing you want to do is piss off the local CLEO. But sometimes you just got too, too make them see the light. |
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KnobCreek,
If you can prove that the CLEO has signed in the past for family,friends and politicos. You have a case for a lawsuit IMHO. I realize that this could bring on a shitstorm. Only you limit how far you want to press the issue. (Of course it all boils down to how much money you have and how much of it you want to throw away.) Good luck |
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LLC, Corp, or Trust. There are "no" other practical options if your CLEO will not sign your Form4.
MadDog (LLC in GA with four Form1's & one Form4 so far) |
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Yea, I was reading that thread about forming a trust.
Sounds like people just did this in one sitting with willmaker 2006. Should I have a lawyer help me make a trust, or just do it myself with the proper tools. Also, in the trust, I only need one other person to be apart of it? can this be a family member? Thank you |
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LOL, You'll have to read the entire thread I know its answered somewhere in there, just don't remember (or the page) |
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Well sometimes there is more then one CLEO , and one will sign where others will not. |
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I'm wondering if we could have the ACLU file lawsuits against these Cheifs and Sheriffs?
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Yea, That is what I am hoping for. I called the sheriff's office today, and got directed to a different LT than the sheriff I have heard about. I never actually called or spoke with anyone, just on my hometown section, people had said the sheriff of my county wouldn't sign. So I took their word for it. But I will see if this other LT will sign off. |
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Check with judges, in your county, that preside over Felony cases. They can also sign.
You have more chances at getting a signature. One sheriff, more than one judge. |
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Don't take someone's word for what the sheriff will or won't do - make an appointment and go talk to him or her. Shave, dress well, and have some answers ready for the obvious questions like "why do you need a machinegun?" and "where are you going to store it?".
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I tried the sheriff sign off in two counties for over 10 years because I was misinformed that I couldn't own a NFA weapon without it. In mid June I was at a gun show and asked a dealer with machine guns why he would bring all his NFA stuff to a show where no one could buy them because you can't get a LEO sign off. He answered just set up a LLC or trust and you can buy one without the LEO. I went home and started doing some reading on NFA and trusts and can't believe still how easy it is to do a trust transfer. I personally wouldn't waist my time on your sheriff because its to easy to do without him. I used Will Maker for $35 and had my trust done and notarized within an hour.
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First off talk to your sheriff, not the people who the sheriff has turned down.
Second talk to the sheriff of the second residence, Last resort do something else. |
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Yep, that's about it... unless you're having supper with a local Judge on a regular basis. |
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LOL, thanks guys for the suggestions and help. I called the sheriff's office today. I asked if the sheriff was in th office, and if I could speak with him about signing a Form 4 for an NFA item. The receptionist said this other LT was in charge of all of that stuff, and gave me his number. I called and left a message with him. Should I not waste my time with him and try to get an appointment with the sheriff? Also it's a suppressor, not a magine gun. So if he asks for valid reasons, I was going to tell him it makes competition and recreational shooting more enjoyable. Any other suggestions? |
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Not sure about state law in this case but the ATF has a procedure to follow if you cannot get a CLEO signoff:
www.fullautofun.homestead.com/page36.html
IMO, what we need is a precedent set that a CHL would be, in essence, a police letter that you're certified to be a citizen of good standing. Now, that would be a sweet turn around on things. wganz ¶ ETA:> highlighted titles for ease of reading |
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The sherrif can delgate the signing authority to a deputy if he wants. In my county there is a Lt. who signs off all NFA paperwork. If you were told that's who does it, then I would do it with him and not bug the sherrif . |
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Good advice. Thank you. No return call from the LT today. Guess I'll wait until tomorrow and call back. Did you have to set up an appointment with the LT or did you just walk in? |
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I've never met the guy I just drop off my paperwork with the people at the front desk with his name on it and a self addressed stamped envelope and in 2-6 weeks I have it back signed.
My county is also about a million people , so we may be a bit less "formal" |
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I see. Well I will try to get in touch with him again tomorrow.
Thank you and wganz for that post about who else can sign, and how to ask the ATF for other people who can sign off. I will keep that in mind. Anyone have other suggestions for what I can tell the authorities why I need the suppressor, other than it makes competition and recreational shooting more enjoyable? Thank you. |
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Should also say for Collection, Investment, and all other Lawful Purposes..
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Great, Thank you for those reasons. Quick question. Does the Form 4 need to be filled out with the serial number and such before I take it to the Sheriff's office? Or can I just have him sign the form with my Name and address on it? |
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Your form 4 should be filled out by the dealer/current owner of the suppressor. And it should be complete with s/n and description. The only line that should be blank is the CLEO signoff line.
It also is wise to have your picture and signature already on the form 4 when you take it to the CLEO for signoff and to have your print cards done. |
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Ok, I am thinking about going the Trust route, and having a lawyer draft the trust.
Can someone post a pic of the back of the form 4, filled out correctly? |
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Go to www.titleii.com Use the Form 4 there. All you do on the back is delete the CLEO info fields, type in John Doe, Grantor on the line for your name & sign and All Lawful Purposes for the reason. That's it, you could do the trust and file your forms in less time than this this thread has taken.
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go the trust/ llc route you will have a faster transfer in most cases and no finger print cards or pictures are necessary |
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