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Posted: 1/20/2011 4:15:54 PM EDT
If pry attacks are such a concern, why do safe mfg's not weld plate steel over the door seam?
Link Posted: 1/20/2011 4:35:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2011 6:24:39 PM EDT by rockola]
If pry attacks are such a concern, why do safe mfg's not weld plate steel over the door seam?


Well they really don't need to if they have tight tolerances and a recessed door as illustrated here by Sturdy Safe. A pry attack can't even get started if the tolerances are tight enough and if you managed to get that far the recessed door directs pry forces into the door and not at opening it (I'm going to have to take more pictures soon I'm wearing these ones out):




That's a dime for reference:



Some other companies aren't quite there yet:

Link Posted: 1/21/2011 12:44:00 PM EDT
Thanks.  Seems to me that the cheaper safes could somewhat eliminate the pry attack by simply welding some plate steel all the way around the seam.  Most of the videos I have seen or the news stories about break ins have the door pried open.  
Link Posted: 1/22/2011 7:49:59 AM EDT
Most of the burglary rated safes I've seen have at least a sheet of hard plate on the doors.
Link Posted: 1/22/2011 9:34:47 PM EDT
Just because some safes have a gap, doesn't mean they can be pried or are easy to pry.
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 2:19:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Just because some safes have a gap, doesn't mean they can be pried or are easy to pry.


True but they do leave the door wide open (excuse the pun) for this type of attack which could be reduced with better quality control.
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 3:04:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2011 3:18:52 AM EDT by Snopczynski]
It isn't really about quality control. Some companies focus on more of the security features inside the door, on the door frame, and the fire protection. There are safes with door gaps that are big enough to get a tool in, but can't be pried open. The door on this safe shown below has a gap big enough to probably get a tool into, but you will never get the door pried open on this safe because of how these bolts are constructed, how far they extend out, and because of how they are supported in the door. The door frame on this safe is also supported immensely.

Link Posted: 1/23/2011 3:22:06 AM EDT
Can anyone tell what this is? Who thinks this is bad, and who thinks it is good?
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 3:58:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Can anyone tell what this is? Who thinks this is bad, and who thinks it is good?
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc420/nwsafe/2007%20BF/IMAG0155.jpg


Really hard to tell which thing in particular you are referring to.
Sort of looks like lithium grease, but I'm not sure.
Bolt doesn't seem to be very solid with just the screw, but it could be fine if we could see it from a slightly different angle.

I think we'd really need to see a larger version of it and from a 2 more angles to really make any sort of constructive comments.


So spill it Snop.... what is it?
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 6:00:23 AM EDT
That is a cam bar that fastens with #10 screws to the bolt bar in a safe that some people think of highly on the forum.
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 8:34:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
That is a cam bar that fastens with #10 screws to the bolt bar in a safe that some people think of highly on the forum.


Unless I'm not understanding the mechanism (kinda hard from the pic size), there isn't any stress to speak of on those #10 screws.
Those should only be under tension stress when you are retracting the bolts. ( and conversely under compression when closing).

If the safe were under a pry attack it doesn't appear those screws would be under any shear stress.  Looks like the bolt bar fits into the frame snuggly and would take the shear stress in the event of an attack.

I'd rather see welds, but I don't think it is necessarily a deal-breaking weak point.

Who makes this?, and what are you illustrating specifically?
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 9:34:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2011 9:34:53 AM EDT by wildearp]
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 12:03:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2011 12:51:17 PM EDT by rockola]
* Edit *

I'm deleting my post, probably not a good idea putting that info on the internet.







Link Posted: 1/23/2011 1:39:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2011 1:40:54 PM EDT by Snopczynski]
Originally Posted By rockola:
* Edit *

I'm deleting my post, probably not a good idea putting that info on the internet.









It doesn't matter.

In my opinion those screws would be under strees if that safe was being pried. The bolt carrier would start to bend over, and in my opinion more than likely start shearing screws off. That carrier piece looked to be only 11gauge steel that holds the bolts in place.
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 4:13:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Originally Posted By rockola:
* Edit *

I'm deleting my post, probably not a good idea putting that info on the internet.




It doesn't matter.

In my opinion those screws would be under strees if that safe was being pried. The bolt carrier would start to bend over, and in my opinion more than likely start shearing screws off. That carrier piece looked to be only 11gauge steel that holds the bolts in place.


Agreed.  But the main point is the 11 gauge steel, not the screws.  If it gets to that point, the screws won't do anything.  The idea is that it shouldn't get to that point.
Things like having a 1/4" plate door and comparable sides will prevent the sort of flexing required to even put stress on those screws.
Link Posted: 1/23/2011 8:09:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2011 8:16:12 PM EDT by Snopczynski]
One of the main failing points on every safe I have ever pried was the mounting for the lock bolts inside the door, and the door frame construction. What the hell do I know though, I just sell, pry, drill, beat open, test, and work on safes for a living.

There is a prime example in the form of a picture already in the safe forum section.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 1:37:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Can anyone tell what this is? Who thinks this is bad, and who thinks it is good?
http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc420/nwsafe/2007%20BF/IMAG0155.jpg


Okay that looks pretty weak to me. Can you tell us what safe that is?
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:16:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jpIII:


Agreed.  But the main point is the 11 gauge steel, not the screws.


+1 If I'm seeing this right those screws don't serve any purpose other than retracting the bolts. even if those screws were 100% sheared off the bolts would still remain in the locked position, held in place by cam-plate. Who cares about those screws?
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 7:27:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SigOwner_P229:
Originally Posted By jpIII:


Agreed.  But the main point is the 11 gauge steel, not the screws.


+1 If I'm seeing this right those screws don't serve any purpose other than retracting the bolts. even if those screws were 100% sheared off the bolts would still remain in the locked position, held in place by cam-plate. Who cares about those screws?


The cam plate would no longer be attached to the bolt carrier if the screws sheared off. So the cam plate will not be holding the bolt plate in place if the screws sheared off.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:42:58 PM EDT


I'm not thrilled about the screws but I think the real weakness is the position of the bolts relative to the frame and the general weakness of the channel and door frame itself. It looks like a pry attack would put quite a bit of torque on the inner door frame (if I'm seeing that right) and also the bolt actuator / support channel. The flange on both the channel and door are pretty narrow and the gauge is thin so likely both would fold inward as well as the bolts to allow the door to open relatively easily, that's my take on it anyway.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 7:06:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 7:08:48 AM EDT by SigOwner_P229]
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Originally Posted By SigOwner_P229:
Originally Posted By jpIII:


Agreed.  But the main point is the 11 gauge steel, not the screws.


+1 If I'm seeing this right those screws don't serve any purpose other than retracting the bolts. even if those screws were 100% sheared off the bolts would still remain in the locked position, held in place by cam-plate. Who cares about those screws?


The cam plate would no longer be attached to the bolt carrier if the screws sheared off. So the cam plate will not be holding the bolt plate in place if the screws sheared off.


The cam plate pushes on the bolt plate. Tell me, how can the bolts be retracted if those screws shear off? The plate is still there. the plate is still pushing on the bolt plate. Like I said, the only thing those screws do is retract the bolt plate. Anybody with half a brain on their shoulders can easily see from those pics that there is an actual physical interference and the bolt plate isn't going anywhere, screws or no screws. If there is more to the story than what is shown in the pictures then tell it.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 7:39:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 7:40:30 AM EDT by TARFU]
I would think that the bolt carrier, if it became unattatched, would twist inside the door when the door is pried out.  This would allow the bolts to angle inward and thus pass through the door opening.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:07:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TARFU:
I would think that the bolt carrier, if it became unattatched, would twist inside the door when the door is pried out.  This would allow the bolts to angle inward and thus pass through the door opening.


At least someone got it on their own.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:39:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 1:39:20 PM EDT by rockola]
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Originally Posted By TARFU:
I would think that the bolt carrier, if it became unattatched, would twist inside the door when the door is pried out.  This would allow the bolts to angle inward and thus pass through the door opening.


At least someone got it on their own.



You give a picture with a limited view and expect everyone to see the same thing you do. From what I see in that limited view, by the time the screws shear off, the door's already opened. If there is a way to put a shear force on those screws without bending the bolt carrier inward to a point where the door can open, I'm not seeing it.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 1:42:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rockola:
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Originally Posted By TARFU:
I would think that the bolt carrier, if it became unattatched, would twist inside the door when the door is pried out.  This would allow the bolts to angle inward and thus pass through the door opening.


At least someone got it on their own.



You give a picture with a limited view and expect everyone to see the same thing you do. From what I see in that limited view, by the time the screws shear off, the door's already opened. If there is a way to put a shear force on those screws without bending the bolt carrier inward to a point where the door can open, I'm not seeing it.


I agree with this, and will reiterate that if the door and body are constructed of steel plate (read TL rated) rather than sheet steel it will not give or flex enough to even make this an issue.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:19:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jpIII:
Originally Posted By rockola:
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Originally Posted By TARFU:
I would think that the bolt carrier, if it became unattatched, would twist inside the door when the door is pried out.  This would allow the bolts to angle inward and thus pass through the door opening.


At least someone got it on their own.



You give a picture with a limited view and expect everyone to see the same thing you do. From what I see in that limited view, by the time the screws shear off, the door's already opened. If there is a way to put a shear force on those screws without bending the bolt carrier inward to a point where the door can open, I'm not seeing it.

Well fortunately for you guys this safe is no where near TL rated.
I agree with this, and will reiterate that if the door and body are constructed of steel plate (read TL rated) rather than sheet steel it will not give or flex enough to even make this an issue.


Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:20:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jpIII:
Originally Posted By rockola:
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Originally Posted By TARFU:
I would think that the bolt carrier, if it became unattatched, would twist inside the door when the door is pried out.  This would allow the bolts to angle inward and thus pass through the door opening.


At least someone got it on their own.



You give a picture with a limited view and expect everyone to see the same thing you do. From what I see in that limited view, by the time the screws shear off, the door's already opened. If there is a way to put a shear force on those screws without bending the bolt carrier inward to a point where the door can open, I'm not seeing it.

I agree with this, and will reiterate that if the door and body are constructed of steel plate (read TL rated) rather than sheet steel it will not give or flex enough to even make this an issue.


Well fortunately for you guys this safe is no where near TL rated.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 7:36:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 7:37:40 PM EDT by lightguy]
A steel lip over the gap would just provide a better leverage point between it and the frame. Crow bar sideways not straight in.

PS; I recently got to look at a Graffunder and its door fit.
My advice if you really want to be happy with your existing safe, NEVER look at a Graffunder
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 12:16:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2011 12:17:52 AM EDT by rockola]
Originally Posted By lightguy:
A steel lip over the gap would just provide a better leverage point between it and the frame. Crow bar sideways not straight in.

PS; I recently got to look at a Graffunder and its door fit.
My advice if you really want to be happy with your existing safe, NEVER look at a Graffunder


I agree lightguy on the lip just giving a better leverage point. On the door gap, as you can see from the attached photo from above my Sturdy safe has every bit as tight a door gap as a Graffunder so I am pretty happy with my existing safe; I wouldn't mind having a Graffunder anyway though
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 6:06:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TARFU:
I would think that the bolt carrier, if it became unattatched, would twist inside the door when the door is pried out.  This would allow the bolts to angle inward and thus pass through the door opening.


There is a physical interference there. The carrier cannot bend very far because it will come to rest on the plate of the door. There is only enough gap there to offer enough clearance for the door to work smoothly under normal conditions. If somebody tried to pry it the carrier would flex 1/4" and then stop once it hit the plate.
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 7:29:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2011 7:33:07 AM EDT by Snopczynski]
In my opinion the steel connecting piece from the cam plate is adding to the security of the bolt carrier plate. It is puttin g a long leverage beam on it to help keep it from bending. I think if it was un-attached it would cause the bolts to tilt fairly far, and the bolt carrier in my opinion would start to bend.

Let me ask a question, sigowner what safe do you own?
Link Posted: 2/3/2011 4:14:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
In my opinion the steel connecting piece from the cam plate is adding to the security of the bolt carrier plate. It is puttin g a long leverage beam on it to help keep it from bending. I think if it was un-attached it would cause the bolts to tilt fairly far, and the bolt carrier in my opinion would start to bend.

Let me ask a question, sigowner what safe do you own?


How far can the carrier bend before it rests up against the plate of the door or any other interference in the door? Get out a tape measure and measure the gap for us because from the picture it appears to be <1/4" gap, and that means the carrier isn't moving much at all with or without those screws.

Any safes/vault doors that I own are irrelevant to this discussion. Please state your motive in asking such a question.
Link Posted: 2/3/2011 6:16:22 AM EDT
Hey, you still haven't told us who makes this safe?
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 12:05:42 AM EDT
Snop, who makes the safe with the crazy bolts in the photo you posted?
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 1:47:28 PM EDT



Originally Posted By CyberSEAL:


Snop, who makes the safe with the crazy bolts in the photo you posted?


I think you can take a pretty good guess based on the pain scheme.



Just want to point something out here... that looks like glue, not grease, to me.



And if it is the glue I am thinking of, it is as strong or stronger than wielding the pieces together. The metal itself will rip apart before the glued section does.



No need to worry about those "crazy bolts".



 
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 2:23:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2011 2:24:04 PM EDT by Snopczynski]
I dont feel the same way about it.
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 6:27:51 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Snopczynski:


I dont feel the same way about it.


What are your thoughts on it?



How do you evaluate the safe overall?
Got any pics of the inside of your browning safe that was posted above for comparison?



 
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 10:15:28 PM EDT
That Browning Safe was a 2011 Master Series Prototype I was shown at the shot show. So, none in yet to take pictures of. Prosteel Makes Browning and Summit EX.

Here are Pics of the inside of the door on a Summit Denali 65 EX.



Link Posted: 2/7/2011 12:49:06 AM EDT
The problem with having active bolts on all sides is that it becomes difficult to adequately reinforce the door IMO; you really need heavy plate steel to give the door structural rigidity so it won't bend, flex and twist while under attack.

IMO this is the way a door frame should be constructed (Sturdy Safe example). No it doesn't allow active bolts on all sides but the design is so strong they aren't needed; also it makes for a very simple, reliable and robust locking mechanism which doesn't require clutches or shear pins to protect itself against attack. The steel frame shown on their doors is constructed with 3/16"(7ga) structural steel, the webbing on the angles are 3" deep and you can see how wide the flanges are. Couple this door with tight tolerances and sitting recessed into the body, this door is just about impossible to pry open.



Link Posted: 2/7/2011 8:29:37 AM EDT
The door on that Denali has a 1/2" solid Steel Plate in it. The door frame is double stepped as well.
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 3:37:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
The door on that Denali has a 1/2" solid Steel Plate in it. The door frame is double stepped as well.


Well 1/2" would be pretty thick plate steel in this class so ... nice example Snop
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 9:45:44 AM EDT
The Everest EX has a 3/4" solid steel plate door, and a triple step door jamb.
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 10:17:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
The Everest EX has a 3/4" solid steel plate door, and a triple step door jamb.


You get a chance to measure that gap yet? I'm interested...
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 11:18:41 AM EDT
The picture was of a safe on Display in Las Vegas when I was at the shot show. So getting a measurement is not going to happen.
Link Posted: 2/10/2011 2:51:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
In my opinion the steel connecting piece from the cam plate is adding to the security of the bolt carrier plate. It is puttin g a long leverage beam on it to help keep it from bending. I think if it was un-attached it would cause the bolts to tilt fairly far, and the bolt carrier in my opinion would start to bend.

Let me ask a question, sigowner what safe do you own?


So are you going to spill the beans on who makes the box with the inferior mechanism you're dissecting here or what?  I fail to see the point of saying it's a safe that's highly regarded by some and then not identifying it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2011 3:35:36 PM EDT
The point is to ask questions about construction when you buy something, otherwise you can end up getting something that looks alot more secure than it is.
Link Posted: 2/10/2011 5:34:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
The point is to ask questions about construction when you buy something, otherwise you can end up getting something that looks alot more secure than it is.


Sure but this is like a jacked up episode of Jeopardy.  We have the answer...what's the question?
Link Posted: 2/10/2011 6:39:35 PM EDT
Rating, rating, rating.... That's all you need to know. If I'm a semi-intelligent thief and want your shit, I'm going to cut open your safe and take it or I'll wait until you get home and make you open it.

TL-15 and up to keep most serious folks with handtools out. A large abrasive demolition saw can cut out one of the other 5 sides fairly quickly. I've cut a lot of estate-sale safes open. All different kinds. It's not rocket science when you don't care if you destroy the safe. A few have been whores but most are easy.

TL-15/30x6 and up to keep most serious folks with power tools out.

That being said, I also own and use RSC's. Reason being they'll keep the average crackhead out and the contents are all well documented by me and insured. It also makes my job a lot easier when you die and your family wants me to cut it open!

A "real" safe big enought to store long guns is going to be 3500+ pounds.

I seriously wouldn't invest too much money into protecting weapons. That's what insurance is for. Definitely get as much safe as you can but I really wouldn't go into debt or lose sleep over it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2011 9:14:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2011 8:09:51 AM EDT by Snopczynski]
Ratings dont mean squat until you get up to the TL stuff. THere are safes that are not TL rated that are well worth owning. UL ratings are a joke until you get to the TL stuff. So no, it is not about ratings. It is about asking questions and evaluating the construction of what your interested in buying.
Link Posted: 2/17/2011 8:08:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DStrokes:

Originally Posted By CyberSEAL:
Snop, who makes the safe with the crazy bolts in the photo you posted?

I think you can take a pretty good guess based on the pain scheme.

Just want to point something out here... that looks like glue, not grease, to me.

And if it is the glue I am thinking of, it is as strong or stronger than wielding the pieces together. The metal itself will rip apart before the glued section does.

No need to worry about those "crazy bolts".
 


I had another one of these apart yesterday, and there was no white goop in the door on the mechanism joining pieces.
Link Posted: 4/5/2011 7:46:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snopczynski:
Originally Posted By DStrokes:

Originally Posted By CyberSEAL:
Snop, who makes the safe with the crazy bolts in the photo you posted?

I think you can take a pretty good guess based on the pain scheme.

Just want to point something out here... that looks like glue, not grease, to me.

And if it is the glue I am thinking of, it is as strong or stronger than wielding the pieces together. The metal itself will rip apart before the glued section does.

No need to worry about those "crazy bolts".
 


I had another one of these apart yesterday, and there was no white goop in the door on the mechanism joining pieces.


So what is the brand?  I am shopping for a safe and would like to know. Thanks.
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