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Posted: 8/9/2005 3:18:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 6:43:47 PM EDT by jquillen1985]
I think it's time to strike up an old "The STG-44 is awesome" thread. One thing I don't know about it is if it had a BHO, or not. Did it? How was reliability and if manufactured today, would it be any more expensive to make than an AK? How is accuracy with the Kurz?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:41:54 PM EDT
Im really surprized somebody didnt make a clone here in the U.S. of that gun
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:53:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 3:54:13 PM EDT by GaryM]
I believe it fires from an open bolt, that makes it a big no no here in the states since 1986.

ETA; illegal to build new ones since 1986, if made before then it would be ok.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:57:18 PM EDT
Shotgun News did a great write-up on them last issue...

LB
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:10:07 PM EDT
Fires from the closed bolt in both semi auto and full auto. Its predecessor the Mkb42 fired from the open bolt.

No bolt hold open device.

Sorry to rain on everone's parade but no one is going to tool up & make a modern semiauto copy for the civilian market. It would require several hundred thousand dollars in stamping dies to make this gun (not enough parts kits or magazines are available as surplus). This is too prohibitive for a very limited market (a couple thousand a year at most). Stamping is only economical for mass production of hundreds of thousands of units a year.

While it would have considerable collector and reenactor value, there's no practical value over a $500 AK or $900 AR. And a reproduction MP44 would undoubtedly cost a lot more than that (see tooling costs above).

But I have about 50 rounds of East German surplus 7.92x33...just in case...
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:28:52 PM EDT
Does anyone know the cost of production in '44, '45? How about Kurtz ballistics? Does anyone know of specs that survived?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:42:15 PM EDT
Cost of production would have been probably about 50% more than an MP40 (I'm guessing), and a whole lot less than an M1 Garand, due to volume production spreading out the tooling costs.

7.92x33 ballistics are a .323" diameter 125 grain bullet going about 2250 fps. Or about 150 fps slower than a 7.62x39.

There's still a few transferable ones out there but are big $$$ now. I remember when you could get one for about $2500 (late '80's) & I thought that was a lot then!

Just to show you how out-of-touch the US military was after WW2, read Hatcher's Notebook if you get a chance (written about 1950). In discussing WW2 weapons the MP44 is barely mentioned as a footnote & dismissed as an M1 carbine-type weapon.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:08:32 PM EDT


The bosses rifle is in excellent condition. It handles great. I've been kicking the idea around with him about a new semi version.
Too many other coals in the fire right now.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:14:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 5:15:12 PM EDT by Andreuha]

Originally Posted By pillbox:
Im really surprized somebody didnt make a clone here in the U.S. of that gun



I'm not.

To be frank, it's a really crappy rifle, IMHO. Its' unrefined features and the fact that is was a wartime/last-ditch design put it down alot. If you want a refined version, get a Cetme, and a refined version of that, the G-3. It's basically like wanting an AK-type over a SIG-55x; specifically if the SIG is commonplace and can be had in any store and the AK demands a huge premium. Damn, I make my own heart bleed for nice stuff when I think about things .
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:15:33 PM EDT
I'd say for the quality and design of the StG, it was innovative, but it was made using a lot of stamped parts. Heck the 'handgaurd' was metal and would heat up burning the user's hands.

As for the 7.92 KURZ (not 'kurtz'. The German word for short is 'kurz'. 9mm kurz is what we call .380), I don't think there were any real good ballistics tests or information about it. It was pretty quickly designed and rushed into production. Along the lines of the Russian M1943 cartridge (7.62x39), the Germans recognized that most combat took place at ranges short enough to make a full powered rifle cartridge just too much. They could reduce the size of the cartridge and the effective range, and come up with some good advantages.

I heard the SKS had some experimental versions feilded in 1945, and soldiers who were issued them really really loved them. I think a more effective weapon in the WWII timeframe would have been a semiautomatic rifle firing an intermediate powered cartridge. I think the StG was a HUGE departure from the common concepts of small arms as they relate to tactics. Soldiers would have adjusted to a rifle more easily.

In fact, I actually heard the Germans also experimented with some G43 rifles that chambered the 7.92 Kurz. Would have been interesting to see what could have developed...
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:17:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:37:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Andreuha:

Originally Posted By pillbox:
Im really surprized somebody didnt make a clone here in the U.S. of that gun



I'm not.

To be frank, it's a really crappy rifle, IMHO. Its' unrefined features and the fact that is was a wartime/last-ditch design put it down alot. If you want a refined version, get a Cetme, and a refined version of that, the G-3. It's basically like wanting an AK-type over a SIG-55x; specifically if the SIG is commonplace and can be had in any store and the AK demands a huge premium. Damn, I make my own heart bleed for nice stuff when I think about things .



But the STG-44 is a piston driven system while the Cetme and G3 are roller-delayed blowback. How are those similar at all?

Hey p-dog, how much did an MP-40 cost to make and how much did the M1 cost during the war?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:50:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:28:29 AM EDT



Here's a MP44 that was captured in one of Saddam's palaces in Baghdad. I also aquired 90 rds of 1961 East German ammo. Gun full auto cyclic fire was about 500 rpm which is slower than the M4s 750 rpm. Gun has a great history. I know of at least a dozen found over here. East Germany and Yugoslavia used them after the war for their armed forces.

CD
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:06:40 AM EDT
Thanks for the pictures. Is that you or a fellow soldier? If you did get some trigger time, how is the recoil and ergonomics?

p-dog, would it really cost that much to get production started? I could see the costs for insurance and liability hitting the old pocketbook, but several hundred thousand dollars just for stamping dies? Are you sure?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:18:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:
Still rockin' and rollin'...........


img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/SudaneseStG44Chica.jpg



I want to know where the hell they get ammo?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:32:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 6:33:28 AM EDT by photoman]

These were all taken with FMD's phone so please pardon the image quality.






FMD poppin' off some rounds


Me poppin' off some rounds. That oven mit looking thing on my support hand, is just that, that gun gets way hot way fast.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:49:58 AM EDT
If someone built a copy I would sure get one
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:16:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 7:17:00 AM EDT by MauserMark]
funny, my good friend and I have been talking about one day starting up a company to make clones of these. I'm a software engineer right now and he's at law school, so........it would be a while
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:56:33 AM EDT
Oh yeah it would cost a lot to tool up!

I've been in on design & outsourcing of stamping dies and even the simplest can be close to $10,000 to make. Larger & more complex are naturally more.

Remember, to make an MP44, you'll need a receiver blanking die, receiver forming die, blanking & forming dies for each magazine half, trigger group half, handguard halves, buttstock socket, and too many little parts to mention.

Don't forget, you'll need stamping presses too! You might find used ones for $10,000 to $20,000 each but new will be $50,000 +. And floorspace on which to put it all.

$200,00 to tool up might be a conservative estimate.

So even if you sell 1,000 rifles, that's $200 per rifle in tooling expense alone. Add in material costs, overhead, and labor...

Remember that this type of production makes a lot of sense during a war when you are planning on making 1,000,000 units a year. Then per rifle tooling cost is 20 cents.

If you can guarantee 1 million civilian buyers, then I'm in!

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:48:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:
Thanks for the pictures. Is that you or a fellow soldier? If you did get some trigger time, how is the recoil and ergonomics?

p-dog, would it really cost that much to get production started? I could see the costs for insurance and liability hitting the old pocketbook, but several hundred thousand dollars just for stamping dies? Are you sure?



That's me in the pictures. Got to fire close to 70 rounds and let some other soldiers fire the rest. Gun is very controlable in both semi and auto. Yes, the gun heats up do to the metal hand guards so did the AK47 that digested 120 rounds as fast as 6 shooters could fire 20 rounds semi each. Remember this gun broke new ground so yes improvements can be made. Recoil wasn't much like a 5.56 or .30 Carbine. If you look at Photomans picture you can see the selector just above and behind the trigger and if I remember (been two years) the safety rotates down to fire. Above that is the push cross bolt selector for auto and semi. Magazines are too long, they are longer than a M16 (1.5") and AK by 1" if memory serves right. Common compainlt from the front were the mags were too long when in the prone.

CD
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:38:16 PM EDT
Anyone have ballistics comparing the 7.92x33 to the 5.56 or 7.62x39?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:49:23 PM EDT
Threads like this one are why I love this forum.
The photos and testimonials are uncommon.

Thanks for posting!
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:24:01 PM EDT
Here's an article I wrote on the MP44.

Machinenpistole 44- From A Lucky Shooter’s Perspective
By Combat Diver

What’s a MP44? It’s the first truly developed assault rifle designed by Germany during WWII firing a reduced cartridge known as the 7.92x33 Kurz. Guns saw service primary on the eastern front and are a select fire weapon.

Characteristics
Caliber: 7.92x33 Kurz (short)
Weight: 11.5 lbs
Length: 37”
Cyclic Rate: 500 rpm
Magazine Capacity: 30 rounds

I won’t go into the full history of these rifles, just a brief description of the two MP44 captured here in Iraq and a shooters opinon. The first was found here in Baghdad at one of Saddam’s palaces. Saddam and family have shown to have a love of collecting firearms, unlike his own people. An SF and Coalition Force found the second during a raid on a weapons market out in the western part of the country. There is a known third specimen further north with another SF team.

Rifle #1 is in excellent condition (Saddam’s) and #2 is in very good condition with a slight wobble to the stock. Rifle #1 is all matching (upper receiver, lower receiver, stock, operating rod, and bolt.) #2 is also mostly all matching. Sometime during the war several parts (operating rod, stock extension and butt stock) had been replaced. The operating rod has another serial number over-stamped and the butt extension contains two serial number strikeouts and a third number forged. The weapon appears to have been rebuilt at an arsenal during the war.

The ammunition appears to be East German and manufactured in 1961. The 15rd cardboard boxes are in German and labeled as 7.92-mm-Patr.Kz 43 SmE mit St. Hulse. Bullet weight is 8.1gm (124gr) and listed velocity is 686mps (2,247fps). I don’t remember what the SmE is, but I do know it’s the bullet construction code, Splitzer. The cases are Berdan primed and made of steel (St. Hulse). I obtained the ammo from another source, which claims that it was recovered from Uday’s palace. (I'm curious where his MP44 is located?)

The magazine capacity is 30 rounds and quite long (about 1” longer than a 30rd AK mag and 2.5” longer than a 30rd M16 mag). The magazine is manufactured from steel stampings and marked MP44. There is one RZM (3rd Reich quality acceptance) eagle on the front and marked "gq" over another eagle stamp. One of the original German complaints was that the magazine was too long, especially when shooting from the prone. Last note on the magazine is that its curve is not as severe as the AK and slightly straighter that of an M16 30 rd mag.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:24:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 9:35:35 PM EDT by Combat_Diver]
Stocks on both weapons are made of plywood. In other words, laminated thin strips glued together. #1 is light in color and #2 is darker. There is a cutout near the middle bottom for a sling (front sling swivel is forward hand guard on right side). There is no butt plate per se, the butt is ribbed wood. There are two metal guards around each toe. The top strap wraps around, and found on top of the stock is a trap door drilled thru for a cleaning kit/oiler. Unfortunately, the kit was missing from both rifles. Stock is attached with wood screws to a stock extension, and the extension attached to both upper and lower receivers with one push- pin (a design feature later incorporated in the Spanish CEMTE and German G3 rifles). Pistol grips are two wood pieces with horizontal grooves attached with one screw. Forward hand guard is a steel stamping with vent holes around the bottom. After firing one magazine the hand guards became quite warm. Sustained firing would certainly yield burns to unprotected hands, arguably not a major concern given the ambient temperatures of the Eastern front!

Lower receiver group includes the pistol grip, trigger assembly, safety and selector. Safety and semi/auto selector are separate entities. Safety is located on left side above the pistol grip with safe in the "up" position. The operator need only push down with thumb to fire. Stroke is longer than I’m accustomed to, but in the right place. The semi/auto selector is located approximately 1/2" above the safety, and is a push- through system. When pushed to the left an “E” is shown for Einzelfeuer (Semi) and pushes to the right side a “D” for Dauerfeuer (Auto) is shown. Lower receiver pivots down for cleaning when stock is removed, allowing access for cleaning of firing system.

The upper receiver has the rear sight on top graduated in hundred meter increments 1-8. There is a spring-loaded dust cover over the ejection port (a feature which likely influenced Eugene Stoner when designing the M-16, though the MP-44 cover springs up rather than down as on the M-16) on the right side. Operating rod handle distends from the left side. Immediately beneath the handle is the round magazine release. The rifle fires from the closed bolt, and the operating rod reciprocates with each round fired. The operating rod racetrack is open to dirt and other materials. There is no dust cover or cut for a bolt hold-open as with previous and current German submachine guns. The weapon's gas system is located atop the barrel and operating rod rides inside, similar to the AK. The front sight post is cast. Weapon #1's front sight is hooded, while weapon #2 is not. The end of the barrel is threaded and has a muzzle nut screwed on, again reminiscent of the AK. Disassembly resembles any HK weapon. If you can disassemble any HK roller lock rifles (MP5, G3, HK91, etc) you can take this apart for they are very similar. Receivers are also very similar in design and shape. Again the HK lineage certainly is apparent. Modern HK weapons clearly benefit from improvements and innovations, which began with the development of the MP43/44/STG44. The weapon was renamed STG44 by Hitler himself –Strumgewehr/Assualt Rifle)

Shooting results. All firing was done from the 25-meter line with weapon #1. Firing was conducted in Iraq. Fired 5-6 snaps semi auto from the low-ready position at various targets. Rifle swung smoothly. The safety takes some time to get used to after training on the M4 but still very similar to the HK MP5. The MP5 has a longer swing from safe to auto, but semi to auto is slightly shorter. Again, the HK is a 3-position safety, whereas
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:25:26 PM EDT
the MP44 is 2-position. After pushing the selector to auto, I again tried a few snaps. That’s when I started having trouble. Not a problem with the gun but my training! I would fire and only get one round off! I’m used to firing 2-3 rd bursts with the M-4 carbine with a cycle rate in excess of 700 rpm. The M-4 trigger has a very short pull and release. I was unable to use that technique with the MP-44. The cyclic rate is approximately 500rpm, but felt somewhat slower. I had to make a conscious effort to depress the trigger longer to achieve 2-3 round bursts. There’s always that training and muscle memory thing! I found the weapon quite controllable for the close range I was shooting. I experienced one misfire. Upon inspection of the round, I noticed the 43- year old ammo had a dent. I re-loaded the round and the weapon fired without further incident.

Two observations I made after firing one magazine: One, there is no bolt hold- open device, either manually or after the last shot. The second was the hand guard was starting to get warm after one magazine. The barrel is right next to the side of the hand guard with a small space on the bottom of the guard. I’m sure this would have been corrected in due time, but the conclusion of the war terminated development on the MP and fostered the beginning of the CEMTE/HK era.

I let a few other shooters to fire 15 rounds a piece from these historical weapons. One of the shooters shot #2 and it functioned flawlessly. The unit will consider taking these weapons home to display in the United States Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center Museum at Fort Bragg, NC. I currently only have one magazine between the two weapons. 14 rounds of ammo are reserved for the Battalion Commander to fire, as he has permitted me the time to follow this quest. I have definitely enjoyed the chance to travel back through history and observe the development of assault weapons and their lasting impact on military history. I hope you, as a shooter and/or military history enthusiast enjoyed the observations from the perspective of the operator, instead of merely a rehash of the already plentiful material regarding the historical development. Here are two links to further read the history and development of the assault cartridges:

“Gun of Many Names” by Richard Gainely
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/germany/weapons/mp43mp44stg44/

“Assault Rifles and their Ammunition” by Anthony G. Williams
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/assault.htm


CD
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:32:37 PM EDT
Read this entire thread, and start drooling. Whether or not this ever comes to fruition, these folks have thought up some interesting solutions:

www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13&PN=1&TPN=1

Making an HK93 or a Vector clone look like an MP44, and having one in 5.56mm are wonderful solutions unless you are a complete purist.

I wish these folks luck.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:28:50 PM EDT
Gee! Thanks Combat Diver!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:44:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:
www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/George%20firing%20MP44%20blacked%20out.jpg
www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/George%20MP44%20blacked%20out.jpg

Here's a MP44 that was captured in one of Saddam's palaces in Baghdad. I also aquired 90 rds of 1961 East German ammo. Gun full auto cyclic fire was about 500 rpm which is slower than the M4s 750 rpm. Gun has a great history. I know of at least a dozen found over here. East Germany and Yugoslavia used them after the war for their armed forces.

CD



What became of that fine weapon? Seems like it should be placed in a museum somewhere.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:26:32 AM EDT
Now I can see why in a lot of pictures of German soldiers firing the STG44, they hold the magwell to balance instead of the handguard. I always thought it was just because of lack of training.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:47:16 AM EDT
^ nope.

Additionally the if one was to make an MP-44 it would have to be chambered for 30-30 or 7.62x39. This is because thier is no surplus nor will anyone make it.

If $200 per rifle is all it would cost in machining, combine that with materials, $150, utilites $150 and labor $300, barrels $100... so forth.. I see no reason why someone could not produce them for under $2,000 which is a price many fires arms sell for these days.

Also after all that one company manages to sell fake ones for $1,200.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:29:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corbic:
^ nope.

Additionally the if one was to make an MP-44 it would have to be chambered for 30-30 or 7.62x39. This is because thier is no surplus nor will anyone make it.

If $200 per rifle is all it would cost in machining, combine that with materials, $150, utilites $150 and labor $300, barrels $100... so forth.. I see no reason why someone could not produce them for under $2,000 which is a price many fires arms sell for these days.

Also after all that one company manages to sell fake ones for $1,200.



There are folks working on importing crap loads of ammo for it, there is also somone that is making brass for it. Talking to the owner of the one I shot, thier is also suposed to be somone either loading it now/ or about to start. I ahven't checked all of that out yet, so I don't know how true it is. But it would seem there may be ammo becomeing alittle more available.....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:34:58 PM EDT
Would there be any way to make a triple stacked mag for it? I don't understand why other companies haven't explored the option of triple or quadrouple stacking.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:55:14 PM EDT

SC-Texas having a go at one of these beatiful rifles!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:25:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
www.houstonattorney.org/images/2nd%20Annual%20New%20Years%20Eve%20Shoot/MP-44-1.JPG
SC-Texas having a go at one of these beatiful rifles!



Tell me about the ergonomics, recoil, etc of the rifle. With a BHO, modern furniture, a better heatshield, and a shorter mag, could it be useful on today's battlefield?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:02:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 6:02:56 PM EDT by Templar]
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:08:04 PM EDT
What's that long piece of metal at the end of the gas tube? In the stripped picture, it stays on the rifle. It looks fragile and useless, so what's it for?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:26:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:42:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:
What's that long piece of metal at the end of the gas tube? In the stripped picture, it stays on the rifle. It looks fragile and useless, so what's it for?



It unscrews to open the gas block up. I don't know why there is the additional post attatched though.

Here's a close up pic of the front of a MP-44 from a collector in New Zealand.

www.gunpics.net

www.gunpics.net/german/mp44/mp4420.JPG



I guess that's just for cleaning?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:45:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:02:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:08:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:20:45 PM EDT
Great pics. Like I replied in the thread, that can't be the best way to jupm in a rifle. Have they not heard of a weapons case?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:23:44 PM EDT
The post is probably for stacking the rifles in groups of three teepee style..........I'll scout for an example.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:29:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unka-Boo:
The post is probably for stacking the rifles in groups of three teepee style..........I'll scout for an example.



You really think so? A piece designed on a rifle just for stacking?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:29:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 9:36:07 PM EDT by Templar]
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:30:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 7:36:03 PM EDT by Templar]
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:33:29 PM EDT
Really?! I never knew rifles were designed with stacking in mind. I guess militaries are different than they used to be. At Fort Jackson, though, I still have seen teepees of M-16's while the recruits are waiting at the grenade range.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:43:18 PM EDT
That took too long but here ya go........
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:49:58 PM EDT
Appreciated. Stacking really doesn't have a place in modern militaries, though.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:54:00 PM EDT

As you can see no weapons cases but they're really not needed. I jump exposed all the time (M16/M4/FAL). Just put on a muzzle cap or tape the muzzle. Notice the second guy, who is being helped rigging his waist band. It appears to be a underfolding stocked RPK. Just need to do your Parachute Landing Fall (PLF) on the other side.

Don't know what happened to the MP44 in my pictures. Came back to Iraq and it was gone from the other battalion.

CD
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