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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 12/27/2006 6:23:36 AM EST
Begging hard for a 1:7 .308 bore.

Link Posted: 12/27/2006 6:46:58 AM EST
That's hot.


Link Posted: 12/27/2006 7:28:40 AM EST
Sign me up for one.

Max
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 7:32:35 AM EST
for american release? takes AK mags?
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 8:35:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By legonas:
for american release? takes AK mags?


No clue on US release, I deal directly with Switzerland. This one takes AK mags but I don't have any further info yet, hoping to talk to an engineer early in January.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 8:37:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
Begging hard for a 1:7 .308 bore.

www.hunt101.com/img/460270.jpg


1 and 7 twist is a little fast for .308. 1 and 10 or 1 and 11 would be more like it.

I just wish SigArms would put out a quality 551 instead of the 556 they released.
I don't need another .308 for now.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 9:02:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2006 9:03:19 AM EST by Sigurd]
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.

Link Posted: 12/27/2006 9:04:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
Begging hard for a 1:7 .308 bore.

www.hunt101.com/img/460270.jpg


1 and 7 twist is a little fast for .308. 1 and 10 or 1 and 11 would be more like it.

I just wish SigArms would put out a quality 551 instead of the 556 they released.
I don't need another .308 for now.


The reason I'm keen on the fast twist .308" bore rather than the slower .311" bore is for suppressed use. The 55X already has an adjustable gas system and .308 bullets are available from 115gr to 200gr. I have a 1:7 .300 Whisper barrel reamed to 7.62x39 for a Contender and have decided it is the perfect calibre for a combat rifle that may serve multiple roles. My own research also supports that the poor reputation for accuracy of 7.62x39 is due to the poor consistency of bullet manufacturing in ex-comblok countries. Measurements have shown bullets as small as .308 and as large as .312". I think going to the NATO standard .308 would solve many of these problems and a really accurate rifle could be built.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 11:19:35 AM EST
thats what they are saying a fast twist .308 is 1-10 the standard is 1-12...1-7 would be crazy fast twist.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 11:26:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2006 11:26:22 AM EST by VinnieBoomBah]

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.



Your kidding, right? You can't seriously be grouping shooters into "poor" and "wealthy" based on the caliber of the rifle they shoot. What next Muffy? Only Po'folk bump fire? Or rich people only have custom guns? Oh, oh I know! You can tell how big a man's tax return is based on what he feeds his 10-22.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 11:54:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By VinnieBoomBah:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.



Your kidding, right? You can't seriously be grouping shooters into "poor" and "wealthy" based on the caliber of the rifle they shoot. What next Muffy? Only Po'folk bump fire? Or rich people only have custom guns? Oh, oh I know! You can tell how big a man's tax return is based on what he feeds his 10-22.



I'm not talking about American shooters, I'm talking about military/LE sales. It's not like SIG is going to import them here.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 12:00:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By VinnieBoomBah:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.



Your kidding, right? You can't seriously be grouping shooters into "poor" and "wealthy" based on the caliber of the rifle they shoot. What next Muffy? Only Po'folk bump fire? Or rich people only have custom guns? Oh, oh I know! You can tell how big a man's tax return is based on what he feeds his 10-22.



I'm not talking about American shooters, I'm talking about military/LE sales. It's not like SIG is going to import them here.



Oh, O.K. then. I see your point regarding LE/Mil sales. My bad.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 1:01:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
thats what they are saying a fast twist .308 is 1-10 the standard is 1-12...1-7 would be crazy fast twist.


Thanks. The twist for the .300 Whisper is 1:8 for bullets up to 220gr. 1:7 might be a bit quick and I'm not sure what could be bought 'off the shelf'.Quarterbore .300 Whisper
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 1:46:56 PM EST
Now thats what I'm talking about SIG!

I probably will not purchase their SIG 556 as I have enough .223 rifles in my gun safe for right now (you can never have too many), but having a SIG in .308 would be very nice.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 1:50:28 PM EST
I also want one.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 2:54:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By wolver98:
I also want one.


+1 Especially if it has the right stock on it
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 5:59:48 PM EST
guys, that pic is extremely old....not in the works
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 6:13:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
thats what they are saying a fast twist .308 is 1-10 the standard is 1-12...1-7 would be crazy fast twist.


Thanks. The twist for the .300 Whisper is 1:8 for bullets up to 220gr. 1:7 might be a bit quick and I'm not sure what could be bought 'off the shelf'.Quarterbore .300 Whisper


yeah but he is talking about an extremely rare 30 cal twist rate to use for bullets traveling at sub sonic speeds.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 7:00:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By VinnieBoomBah:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.



Your kidding, right? You can't seriously be grouping shooters into "poor" and "wealthy" based on the caliber of the rifle they shoot. What next Muffy? Only Po'folk bump fire? Or rich people only have custom guns? Oh, oh I know! You can tell how big a man's tax return is based on what he feeds his 10-22.



I'm not talking about American shooters, I'm talking about military/LE sales. It's not like SIG is going to import them here.


And you know that how? There are some very good tactical reasons for going to 7.62 x 39, the most compelling ones IMO are effectiveness over 5.56 against targets behind barriers such as brick and cinder blocks. 5.56 and 5.45 exist largely because of logistical reasons. For home defense, you don't need to pack out 300 rounds and hile 20 miles. Nor are you shooting people at 400 yards. I'd like to see a good refined 7.62 x 39 rifle.

I say drop the AK mags, give me bolt hold open and drop free mags.
Link Posted: 12/27/2006 10:33:42 PM EST
Those were built some time ago by SwissArms (SIG doesn't build the 550 series...) bought by the US gov't for some Iraqi army units. There are supposedly some going to go to Canada at some point in the future.
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 2:33:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:

Originally Posted By PFC_Kramer:
thats what they are saying a fast twist .308 is 1-10 the standard is 1-12...1-7 would be crazy fast twist.


Thanks. The twist for the .300 Whisper is 1:8 for bullets up to 220gr. 1:7 might be a bit quick and I'm not sure what could be bought 'off the shelf'.Quarterbore .300 Whisper


yeah but he is talking about an extremely rare 30 cal twist rate to use for bullets traveling at sub sonic speeds.


Exactly. The .300 Whisper was developed from the 221/222/223 cartridge to function in AR15s, not because it was the perfect cartridge case host for suppression. The SIG55X already has a gas switch, really easy to add a 3rd position to switch gas feed OFF. 7.62x39 can be loaded with bullets from 125gr to 220gr. The AK system functions in full-auto with light loads. Etc., Etc., Etc. That rifle in the pic may well be the perfect suppressor host for a combat rifle, just like the MP5 may be the perfect suppressed subgun. Change the magazine and change the mission objective.
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 2:58:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2006 2:59:36 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By VinnieBoomBah:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.



Your kidding, right? You can't seriously be grouping shooters into "poor" and "wealthy" based on the caliber of the rifle they shoot. What next Muffy? Only Po'folk bump fire? Or rich people only have custom guns? Oh, oh I know! You can tell how big a man's tax return is based on what he feeds his 10-22.



I'm not talking about American shooters, I'm talking about military/LE sales. It's not like SIG is going to import them here.


And you know that how? There are some very good tactical reasons for going to 7.62 x 39, the most compelling ones IMO are effectiveness over 5.56 against targets behind barriers such as brick and cinder blocks. 5.56 and 5.45 exist largely because of logistical reasons. For home defense, you don't need to pack out 300 rounds and hile 20 miles. Nor are you shooting people at 400 yards. I'd like to see a good refined 7.62 x 39 rifle.

I say drop the AK mags, give me bolt hold open and drop free mags.


There are NO good tactical reasons for the X39...

It has extremely low velocity, very poor terminal ballistics, and minimal-to-no penetration advantage over M855.

Even if you use US components and commercial-grade loading practices (say, with Winchester's 7.62x39) you will still have a fairly inaccurate round with the ballistics of 30-30 and the terminal effect of a .30cal icepick (FMJ type - obviously JSP and other hunting rounds will do 'better') .

The reasons for 5.56 have NOTHING to do with logistics... It is a flatter shooting, more accurate and more devastating round (due to fragmentation) when used against soft targets than 7.62x51 ball, much less 7.62x39 - it is also more controllable in rapid fire, allowing faster aimed follow-up shots. 7.62x51 or x54 has an edge in barrier penetration, but remember that from a tactical/military perspective, 'barrier penetration' is the job of crew-served support weapons, not individual rifles...

7.62x39 is exactly what it is - a shortened version of the 7.62x54 that is a better choice than 9mm or 7.62x25 for an AK-type SMG/carbine hybrid (full auto short-range suppressive fire infantry weapon)... It is not, however, a good choice for a rifle-platform that is designed for aimed fire against individual targets....

Remember: THE CHIEF ATTRACTION OF X39 TO THE US MARKET IS THAT IT WAS CHEAP IN BULK... Now that the price is going up, the attraction will fade....
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 3:56:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2006 3:57:10 AM EST by wolver98]
JoshNC posted this on another site.

Link Posted: 12/28/2006 8:57:17 AM EST
The only use i can see is military units operating behind enemy lines for long periods using pick-up ammo, although in this situation they would probably just use ak's.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 12:06:11 AM EST
Sign me up...
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 4:45:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By VinnieBoomBah:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.



Your kidding, right? You can't seriously be grouping shooters into "poor" and "wealthy" based on the caliber of the rifle they shoot. What next Muffy? Only Po'folk bump fire? Or rich people only have custom guns? Oh, oh I know! You can tell how big a man's tax return is based on what he feeds his 10-22.



I'm not talking about American shooters, I'm talking about military/LE sales. It's not like SIG is going to import them here.


And you know that how? There are some very good tactical reasons for going to 7.62 x 39, the most compelling ones IMO are effectiveness over 5.56 against targets behind barriers such as brick and cinder blocks. 5.56 and 5.45 exist largely because of logistical reasons. For home defense, you don't need to pack out 300 rounds and hile 20 miles. Nor are you shooting people at 400 yards. I'd like to see a good refined 7.62 x 39 rifle.

I say drop the AK mags, give me bolt hold open and drop free mags.


There are NO good tactical reasons for the X39...

It has extremely low velocity, very poor terminal ballistics, and minimal-to-no penetration advantage over M855.

Even if you use US components and commercial-grade loading practices (say, with Winchester's 7.62x39) you will still have a fairly inaccurate round with the ballistics of 30-30 and the terminal effect of a .30cal icepick (FMJ type - obviously JSP and other hunting rounds will do 'better') .

The reasons for 5.56 have NOTHING to do with logistics... It is a flatter shooting, more accurate and more devastating round (due to fragmentation) when used against soft targets than 7.62x51 ball, much less 7.62x39 - it is also more controllable in rapid fire, allowing faster aimed follow-up shots. 7.62x51 or x54 has an edge in barrier penetration, but remember that from a tactical/military perspective, 'barrier penetration' is the job of crew-served support weapons, not individual rifles...

7.62x39 is exactly what it is - a shortened version of the 7.62x54 that is a better choice than 9mm or 7.62x25 for an AK-type SMG/carbine hybrid (full auto short-range suppressive fire infantry weapon)... It is not, however, a good choice for a rifle-platform that is designed for aimed fire against individual targets....

Remember: THE CHIEF ATTRACTION OF X39 TO THE US MARKET IS THAT IT WAS CHEAP IN BULK... Now that the price is going up, the attraction will fade....


Umm.. I'm using my rifles for home defense, not playing Rambo. I don't have a machine gunner with an M60 at my side to take out bad guys taking cover (and as someone says in their sig line, people tend to take cover when being shot at), I don't load my defense weapons with FMJ rounds, and I'm not concerned about 4MOA vs 2MOA at 100 yards for a house gun.

You're right though, the fact that you can carry more rounds at less weight with 5.56 or 5.45 was never a factor for their adoption.

And if you're worried about ice picking, what do you think happens to the terminal ballistics of a 5.56 round after passing through a barrier? Please don't suggest 7.62 NATO or 54R again, apples and oranges.
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 11:13:05 AM EST
lolol I love conversations like this....762x39 poor performer? please lolol how about I give anyone who thinks its a shitty round a 100 yrd head start, and uh lets see what happens...
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 5:06:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By survivorman:
lolol I love conversations like this....762x39 poor performer? please lolol how about I give anyone who thinks its a shitty round a 100 yrd head start, and uh lets see what happens...


+1

Bullets have a nasty habit of killing people. Regardless of terminal armchair commando ballistics.

With quality ammo, a 7.62 by 39mm should do at least as well as that 6.8 that everyone's nuts over.
Link Posted: 12/31/2006 8:07:59 AM EST
How is this for a theory.

PRO: People/organizations that would want this are fighting Taliban or other Terrorists in caves full of AK ammo and loaded mags. This rifle would lessen your need for re-supply if you could re-supply from dead guys.

CON : Once the BG knew what you were doing , they would booby trap ammo and mag caches.


Not to mention this would be a good marketing point to Iraq/Afghan governments wishing to go to a more accurate weapon system and still exploit their current stockpiles.
Link Posted: 1/1/2007 2:54:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2007 3:05:25 PM EST by julenissen]

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Wow, I really don't get it.

Nobody who uses 7.62x39 rifles can afford to buy SIGs. Nobody who can afford to buy SIGs uses 7.62x39 rifles.

To say nothing of the fact that it certainly doesn't do anything the Sako RK95 can't do already.



The only large scale .gov customer even remotely interssed must be Finland... I've seen some Mid-East SF ( Egypt, Jordan ) countries with sig551.

BTW, whats the story behind your nick?
Link Posted: 1/1/2007 3:07:06 PM EST
Sadly, it will go the way of the HK32....


Great idea in general and on paper but the AK will always be the better
choice for any fighting group.


1 Swiss made 7.62X39 rifle would buy about 20 AK's


Who gives a shit if it is .5 MOA "more" accurate than an AK ?

Quantity outweighs quality when it comes to the kind of war going on these days.


I would like to see it in the Sigarms 556 though..... AFTER they get the 5.56 looking and working the way it should
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