User Panel
Posted: 3/3/2006 6:12:18 AM EDT
Looks like there's another twist in the SBR markings drama, this may be the final verdict. Check it out here:B.A.T.F.E.'s latest response. ARKAR
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This letter only makes things more confusing (got to love the gov't). It states their original opinion was correct, but then it goes on to state that they were "remiss" in advising that the maker is required to identify the firearm with his or her name.
Doesn't that contradict the earlier statement? WTF? hy Geeez. Until I see something concrete otherwise, I'm not going to mark up mine. I contacted my C3 dealer and they said that this discussion always seems to come up, only with no clear guidance--so they don't mark. |
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look at the bottom.... frame, recever, OR barrel ..?
barrel...? am i missing somthing.. |
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Right, and he uses the word "can" on all three. Why can't the BATF make up their mind and use the word "must" place on either frame, receiver, or barrel? |
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What the BATF is saying is you are modifying an existing weapon with markings...manuf,caliber,model, etc...and to put these desriptions on your registration form. Use the existing s/n as its s/n, send in the paperwork and do not modify until approved. basically what you are doing is transcribing the original description of the gun from the original manufacturer and just changing the barrel length and overall length. If you were to start from a blank unmarked gun, then you would need to add your name as the manufacturer, such as what was done originally. The paperwork needs a description of the manufacturer on its form, all you are doing is changing its barrel length and overall length and then putting the change on paper. When saleen modifies a mustang, the title remains the same-mustang- but the car has saleen written all over it! Your name is registered to the firearm on the paperwork. Example- a shotgun with the barrel changed to under the legal limit-18", this is now a short barreled shotgun and needs to be registered, all you did was change a barrel, could even be the same manufacturer for the barrel. The paperwork would describe the gun and be registered to you, without stamping you name all over it.
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What the BATF is saying is you are modifying an existing weapon with markings...manuf,caliber,model, etc...and to put these desriptions on your registration form. Use the existing s/n as its s/n, send in the paperwork and do not modify until approved. basically what you are doing is transcribing the original description of the gun from the original manufacturer and just changing the barrel length and overall length. If you were to start from a blank unmarked gun, then you would need to add your name as the manufacturer, such as what was done originally. The paperwork needs a description of the manufacturer on its form, all you are doing is changing its barrel length and overall length and then putting the change on paper. When saleen modifies a mustang, the title remains the same-mustang- but the car has saleen written all over it! Your name is registered to the firearm on the paperwork. Example- a shotgun with the barrel changed to under the legal limit-18", this is now a short barreled shotgun and needs to be registered, all you did was change a barrel, could even be the same manufacturer for the barrel. The paperwork would describe the gun and be registered to you, without stamping you name all over it.
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As if guns are treated like cars. Here's an idea: Why doesn't someone submit a Form-1 with the EXISTING make/model/SN and post what happens. IF the thing gets approved, no need to make any additional markings, as they will exactly match what the Form-1 says. If they shit the form back to you, then you can either do what they say, or have them send you a check and forget the whole thing. Who's feelin' froggy? |
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Well, I'll be dipped in shit. How about this from the actual instructions for the Form-1?:
Note the word "modified" is used. Not "made", when referring to registering a non-NFA firearm as an NFA firearm. However, it also says this:
But since they make the semantic distinction using "modified" instead of "made" in the previous section, I think just using the existing info is correct. And I don't think "modify" is a derivitive of "make". "Modify" is closer to "change" or "alter". I'm just going by what the form says, which should override any various opinions stated by ATF employees. That said, I still stand by my advice for someone to simply fill it out with the existing data and see what happens... |
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Here's what happens - My Form 1 that was just approved a couple of months ago has "NONE" in 4h. What goes here?? Answer is "...ALL numbers and other identifying data which will appear on the firearm." If ALL is NONE, where does an additional name and address fit in? My BTAFE approval provides that no additional markings appear on the firearm. |
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I did just that. Had a Carbon15 lower, submitted my Form 1 using all the markings from the lower itself, and it was approved. I have been the happy owner of a Carbon15 97s for quite some time now. |
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That's proof enough for me. Still, I can't shake the feeling that if I don't do it one day it's gonna bite me in the ass. |
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The idea behind making and modifying etc.. is the receiver of the gun not its parts. the receiver is the registered part, all else can be changed at anytime in its life time. Altering the receiver is what is meant, not the barrel. You can not change the receiver which is the registered part. If you want to cut a barrel down..good ...it is not the receiver. Suppose a barrel gets warn out? do you replace the barrel or replace the receiver? when the barrel is replaced it has its own markings or not. Remember- if you manfacture a weapon, you must mark it...it has a receiver.......but if you modify a part, not the receiver, you are not a manufacturer. by the way...I have had sbr (s) registered
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In keeping with the discussion, so.... did you engrave your lowers? |
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Well, This is confusing as hell, just as before. I have two krinkov kits I want to do as SBR's, and I am just waiting on the receivers so I can fill out the paperwork.
Does anyone have the original letter they can post from the ATF so we can see what they said in the orginal letter? Also, has anyone thought of calling the guy from the ATF who wrote the letter and ask him what we are required to put on our SBRs? I'll call him, but it will probably be a few days before I get some free time to do it while they are open. I am used to dealing with the FAA, and sometimes you just have to get on the phone and ask them, of course, the problem though is that even people within the organization interperate regulations differently. My delemia, I have two 100% receivers on the way. They will be marked with the original manufactures serial# name, place of manufacture. So when I want to then register the receivers for SBR to build my krink kits on, can I just use the original manufactors information on the FORM 1 (which seams to work)? The next real question is, Am I, the person who is regestering the receiver for SBR under a Form 1, required to engrave my name and information anywhere on the firearm? Hopefully we can get a real answer soon. Also, I have a question for filling out the Form 1 for those of you who have done it already. For box 4.f. overall length, if the rifle has a collapsing or folding stock do you put the length with the stock folded or extended or does it matter? |
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Use original manufacturer identification...4a on form 1 note; it says "receiver" which means manufactured previous to assembly. do not modify receiver. need not to engrave, manufacturer is on receiver. the receiver has been registered as a weapon. as stated in the BATF letter in this thread, it says you can mark the gun, but note it says "or" the barrel..which can be changed, not the receiver which is the registered part. so why mark it? just the ATF trying to get un-needed information when not required you are assembling a weapon and modifying it to a sbr use length with full extended stock as overall |
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Thanks. Thats what I thought. Hopefully my receivers will get here soon so I can get this paperwork sent in. |
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I don't see what the big deal of putting your info on an SBR is. Heck, SBR's don't have much resale value, so people should plan on keeping them forever anyway. In the event of theft, you'd probably be glad that your personal info is on there...
If you were supposed to use the original manufacturer's markings on the forms, then why did the government specifically say that persons making machineguns before the '86 ban had to mark their info on them? |
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It does not matter if you are making a Title 2 firearm from scratch or are converting an existing Title 1 firearm. The definition of "firearm" in the law cited below only includes NFA items. Existing Title 1 firearms are not "firearms" for the purpose of this law.
The person submittting the Form 1 is the maker. If you are making the SBR from an existing Title 1 firearm, you will be simply reusing some of the existing markings: serial number, model, and caliber. What is left for you to add are the remaining required markings: your name and address. You are required to do this by law, regardless of what you put or didn't put on your Form 1. I've highlighted in red the parts that spell out the required markings that the maker of a Title 2 firearm must apply to the firearm. NFA marking requirements
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I have spoke with NFA abotu this and i was told to mesure the overall lenght with the stock fully extended . hope that helps
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