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Posted: 8/20/2007 1:16:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2007 3:52:30 PM EDT by overclock]
North Carolina SBR i need some help
hand written on letter {reason provided in Box 4 I is not in compliance with N.C. state
law for possessing/manufacturing a short barrel rifle [attached copy of n.c. state law ]

PLEASE MAKE THE APPROPRIATE CORRECTIONS AND RETURN WITH ERROR LETTER WITHIN 30 DAYS TO [address]ATTENTION Sandra Snook

I put in box 4 i [Protection of my home and business ] per a class 3 dealer in N.C.

Now what do i put in the box 4I and what is a ERROR letter and what do i say in it
thanks again for anyhelp
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 1:30:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By overclock:
North Carolina SBR i need some help
hand written on letter {reason provided in Box 4 I is not in compliance with N.C. state
law for possessing/manufacturing a short barrel rifle [attached copy of n.c. state law ]

PLEASE MAKE THE APPROPRIATE CORRECTIONS AND RETURN WITH ERROR LETTER WITHIN 30 DAYS TO [address]ATTENTION Sandra Snook

I put in box 4 i [Protection of my home and business ] per a class 3 dealer in N.C.

Now what do i put in the box 4I and what is a ERROR letter and what do i say in it
thanks again for anyhelp


what she is saying is your reason for owning the weapon doesnt conform to NC state law. she included a copy of the state law, (or she says she did). in the law it should or may give reasons for owning a SBR.

Error letter is what she sent you. so I guess she wants a new form and the old form showing what you fixed???
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 1:42:05 PM EDT
Does "all lawful puposes" work in NC?
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 1:44:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By klaxxon:
Does "all lawful puposes" work in NC?

it should. What he put was just begging for a rejection.
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 1:56:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2007 2:04:55 PM EDT by Dan-P]

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By klaxxon:
Does "all lawful puposes" work in NC?

it should. What he put was just begging for a rejection.


No, in NC "all lawful purposes" does not work. NC law is VERY specific about the exclusion that allows possession of "Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction". Item b(4) in bold is the key.

§ 14 288.8. Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction.
(b) This section does not apply to:
(1) Persons exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14 269 with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in while carrying out their duties.
(2) Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.
(3) Persons under contract with the United States, the State of North Carolina, or any agency of either government, with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in under their contracts.
(4) Inventors, designers, ordnance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of North Carolina.



To put it simply: "Research and development" is what is needed.

The "error letter" is the form she sent you that indicates the error. It usually has a control number on the front that helps match the paperwork you send back, with the stuff she kept (print cards, check..etc.) Just make the corrections on the forms, put your initials by the corrections, and send everything she sent you back to her.
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 2:25:03 PM EDT
as always thank you very much
so i send in 2 new form 1s with Research and development or just correct the form or both ?

I think i should send 2 new forms with corrections and error letter with a small note
with the control number listed. I dont know if it would be a good idea to mark through the protection of home and bussiness and insert Research and development
you guys tell me its just a stamp I just dont want to through up any red flags
thanks again
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 2:31:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 2:42:09 PM EDT
Is this a joke? You have to be kidding me.
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 2:55:38 PM EDT
Is this a joke? You have to be kidding me.

why would you think its a joke ?
FYI my first NFA purchase
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 3:31:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2007 3:32:10 PM EDT by David_Hineline]
two new forms means new CLEO signatures unless you did not need CLEO signatures, I would definatly give feedback to your C3 dealer. Perhaps he intentionally did this if you chose not to buy anything from his store, but decided to make it yourself.
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 7:05:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By overclock:
Is this a joke? You have to be kidding me.

why would you think its a joke ?
FYI my first NFA purchase


I think the term of "Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction" is alien to most others in more friendlier SBR states. On the surface, it seems NC law makes SBR's right up their with Nukes and chemical weapons.
Link Posted: 8/20/2007 9:12:20 PM EDT
I would do exactly what Dan-P told you to do. He knows what he's talking about.
Link Posted: 8/21/2007 5:03:39 AM EDT
That's just frigging rediculous!

I am waiting on my first SBR too. Not to hijack the thread, but does anybody know if there are similar restrictions in Wisconsin?

I put down: Collector, Investment, All Lawfull Purposes
Link Posted: 8/21/2007 5:10:01 AM EDT
"...weapons of mass death and destruction...". That's rich.
Link Posted: 8/21/2007 5:24:00 AM EDT
Do exactly what Dan-P says, and everything will be fine
Link Posted: 8/21/2007 5:25:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gendaito:
I would do exactly what Dan-P told you to do. He knows what he's talking about.


+1

He's probably seen more Forms than everyone here combined.
Link Posted: 8/22/2007 8:55:31 AM EDT
Though, if it were me, I'd have "Experimental Weapon of Mass Death and Destruction" engraved on the gun. :)
Link Posted: 8/22/2007 12:02:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NightOwl:
Though, if it were me, I'd have "Experimental Weapon of Mass Death and Destruction" engraved on the gun. :)


That won't have an adverse affect on reliability will it?
Link Posted: 8/22/2007 12:35:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By overclock:
so i send in 2 new form 1s with Research and development or just correct the form or both ?

I think i should send 2 new forms with corrections and error letter with a small note
with the control number listed. I dont know if it would be a good idea to mark through the protection of home and bussiness and insert Research and development
you guys tell me its just a stamp I just dont want to through up any red flags
thanks again

You can either make the corrections on the existing forms (If you have CLEO signatures, this is what you should do), or just make up new forms.
If you do make corrections to the existing forms, make sure that you initial them like Dan mentioned.

NC is (I think) the only state that requires this (For research and developement) response to that question. In other states, "For all lawful purposes" or "Firearms collector" will usually work.
Link Posted: 8/22/2007 5:34:06 PM EDT
I would send back the originals.

The original forms are probably stamped with a control number at the top of the form.

You don't want to send back "new" forms which (lacking the control number), will probably result in a High Density Cluster F...

Sending the originals (and error letter) worked for me.
Link Posted: 8/31/2007 3:55:43 PM EDT
Thanks for all the help on this
I sent back the originals with the corrections [and error letter]
I also sent back 2 new forms with the corrections made
Just checked the mail she sent me 1 of the new forms back APPROVED
WHooooo
Link Posted: 8/31/2007 6:46:11 PM EDT
I was told to put "Firearms Collection" in that blank. I did and the checks cleared a week ago... Waiting on the approval.
Link Posted: 8/31/2007 6:51:39 PM EDT
Good deal. I appreciate you sharing this info.
Link Posted: 8/31/2007 7:28:37 PM EDT
congrats:D
Link Posted: 9/1/2007 8:39:11 AM EDT
Do a trust, and bypass the CLEO.
Link Posted: 9/2/2007 10:15:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:

Originally Posted By eodinert:
Do a trust, and bypass the CLEO.


Not legal in NC

Huh?
Link Posted: 9/2/2007 10:16:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:

(2) Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.


Would 'firearms collecting' also work for valid reason for owning an SBR in NC?

I believe I've seen people post here before that they were rejected for it. ATF expects to see "reasearch" as the reason, although "all legal purposes" is supposedly accecptable.
Link Posted: 9/3/2007 9:29:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2007 9:31:15 AM EDT by CRC]
If you see the snippet of NC law I posted it seems to exempt licensed firearms collectors
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 6:55:27 PM EDT
I'm glad I read this thread (thanks warpig8654). I thought that I couldn't own a SBR in NC b/c of all the info. I was reading and I see the hang up in section 4. However, I AM doing a trust. I purchased Quicken Willmaker and set up my entire trust. I just changed my section 4 to "research..." Will I have a problem on my trust?
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 3:23:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2007 3:24:12 AM EDT by Skartissue]

Originally Posted By CRC:
If you see the snippet of NC law I posted it seems to exempt licensed firearms collectors


I read the same part and wondered if a C&R FFL would exempt you, but I was told the answer was no.

edit for spelling
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 6:21:29 PM EDT
I'll add to this in a bit and update.I am in NC (Lee County) and my form 1 was submitted Thursday and the reason stated was "collecting purposes" . I submitted this myself for a PS90. My dealer here in Dunn also submitted the same day a form 4 for a gemtech Halo and put somthing similar to "all legal use or purposes". Hopefully these fly. It seems to be all about the person reviewing the paperwork. Its also not the first time he has done this.
Link Posted: 9/22/2007 8:09:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JPratt06:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
Just put "Investment"

Why is this box so hard to fill out for so many people?




Because in North Carolina, NFA is regulated under their "Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction" statutes. One may only possess NFA for the purposes of scientific research and or development.



Which the OP should have known about in the first place and has nothing to do with my comments anyway.
Link Posted: 9/22/2007 8:18:23 PM EDT
So, on a related topic, if someone were to already have NFA items before deciding to move to NC, what would happen if their existing Form-1s and Form-4s did not have "R&D" listed block 4i?
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 10:08:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By JPratt06:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
Just put "Investment"

Why is this box so hard to fill out for so many people?




Because in North Carolina, NFA is regulated under their "Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction" statutes. One may only possess NFA for the purposes of scientific research and or development.



Which the OP should have known about in the first place and has nothing to do with my comments anyway.



My point is that you should read a thread before posting your indignation with the inadequacies of your fellow arfcommers. You should also refrain from posting incorrect information that will cause people to get their forms rejected.
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 10:08:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2007 10:09:40 AM EDT by JPratt06]

Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
So, on a related topic, if someone were to already have NFA items before deciding to move to NC, what would happen if their existing Form-1s and Form-4s did not have "R&D" listed block 4i?



Fill out a 5320.20 and put "change of address and scientific research" in the reason blank.
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 10:13:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2007 10:14:17 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By JPratt06:

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By JPratt06:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
Just put "Investment"

Why is this box so hard to fill out for so many people?




Because in North Carolina, NFA is regulated under their "Weapons of Mass Death and Destruction" statutes. One may only possess NFA for the purposes of scientific research and or development.



Which the OP should have known about in the first place and has nothing to do with my comments anyway.



My point is that you should read a thread before posting your indignation with the inadequacies of your fellow arfcommers. You should also refrain from posting incorrect information that will cause people to get their forms rejected.



My point was not directed at the OP. It was to the other people who turn these threads into 5+ pages with obsessing, brooding, and agonizing about what to put in the box.
Link Posted: 9/23/2007 12:36:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 1:45:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By clasky:
Not to hijack the thread, but does anybody know if there are similar restrictions in Wisconsin?


Nope.

The only mild snag is in the MG area, and it is effectively non-existant:
Sections 941.25 and 941.26 shall not prohibit
or interfere with the manufacture for, and sale of, machine guns
to the military forces or the peace officers of the United States or
of any political subdivision thereof, or the transportation required
for that purpose; the possession of a machine gun for scientific
purpose, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a
weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament or keepsake; or the
possession of a machine gun other than one adapted to use pistol
cartridges for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive
.


FWIW, i've had a 5320.20 approved to NC with "all lawful purposes" listed, and it was approved.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 1:49:29 PM EDT
I wonder if "because chicks dig short barrels" would have worked?
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:38:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 2:39:07 PM EDT by JPratt06]
Worked for me, but probably wouldn't fly for someone in NC
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:54:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I wonder if "because chicks dig short barrels" would have worked?


Nope. NC's law is very clear.

Now.... if you put down "To determine whether or not chicks really do dig short barrels..."

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:56:20 AM EDT
^^^ "Using every scientific and quantitative method at my disposal, I wish to determine whether or not a shorter barrel will negatively impact a male's chance of scoring a date at the shooting range. I hypothesize that because a shorter barrel is louder when it ejaculates its bullet, it will attract more female attention, thus proving that chicks really do dig short barrels."
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 11:38:12 AM EDT
Dan-P is correct.

I have used "scientific/experimental purposes" for an SBR and a suppressor. An MG permit must be obtained from your Sheriff for an MG and the above reason must be used in the Form 4.

Be aware that the Sheriffs have all been told not to sign for these firearms by the NC Attorney General.

If you are fortunate enough to have one sign for you, it is bad publicity for the Sheriff if this is posted on the internet.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 1:36:41 PM EDT
well, after reading all this . i guess i have to scratch off NC for places id like to move to one day.

and with all the Northerners moving in like no tomorrow....
who knows what you will have to write just to buy mags ?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:20:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 3:33:45 PM EDT by denz]
Dan-P is right.
Faldoc is correct on all three accounts..

For those in NC you must put "Research and development", if you have a Collectors license then you may put “"Research and development, Firearms Collection”, the S/D must be put first, unless you want to increase the wait time.
SBR and Cans are processed quickly, the MG will take more time and will require a local permit which will have to be sent with Form4 to ATF.
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