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Posted: 9/9/2004 10:50:51 AM EST
I have heard that Mike Rock designed the stock for Some people In the NAVSPECWAR community. I know there are visual differences. The gas system on the TROY looks to be cocked to the side.

What are the differences in the two stocks? The Sage ind is $499 no rails
The TROY is $650 complete. (I Think)

Any help would be great. I would love to do a GroupBuy If we can determine a prefered model.

Thanks Mike
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 12:53:05 PM EST
What you are seeing with the gas system cocked to the side is the SOPMOD14 conversion. That runs about $2500 plus the soon to be outdated "preban" M1A rifle.

If you want the entire stock it runs $650 complete with the rail running from the clipper strip guide to the gas block. I have one on order. If I bought a sage stock it would be for the 870 shotgun.

.02
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 2:29:06 PM EST
AND THE SOPMOD14 CONVERSION CONSISTS OF???
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 3:45:19 PM EST
The Sage stock has the top rail integrated (non removable), I bought the bottom (full length), left and right rails (much shorter). The Sage stock is heavy, with an M1A in it the weight is somewhat comparable to an HK91 (heretofore the heaviest semi auto rifle I had)
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:36:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By REXLOGIC:
AND THE SOPMOD14 CONVERSION CONSISTS OF???



The SOPMOD M-14 from Troy is highly modified. The side-swept gas system is the the heart of it. An unmodified M-14 op-rod runs from the receiver, then turns left and down under the barrel to get get a straight shot to the gas system. Mike cut the turns out of an op-rod and moved the gas sytem so it is impinging the now-straight op-rod straight back linearly. There is less stress and torque on the op-rod.

The conversion also consists of the 5R barrel where the lands are not rectangular or square in profile like normal lands, but are radially cut, looking like pyramids with the tops cut off. You get a better gas seal, less fouling and longer life with the 5R. Mike Rock designed this too and it's used on the Army's M-24 sniper rifles. Attached to the barrel is a barrel sleeve that does a couple things: 1) It provides harmonic tension and 2) It becomes the rear support for the SOPMOD suppressor. The flash hider is more or less conventional, but is closer to an M-16A2 flash hider than M-14.

The SOPMOD stock is also a big part of the Rock SOPMOD conversion and it is NOT the SOPMOD Drop-In Stock that others are talking about. This one is aluminum and more round to accommodate the side-mounted gas system. It has Pic Rails at all positions and are removable. It has a Sage collapsible stock, which is how Mike Rock lost the contract. He submitted his conversion to Crane, Crane realized that they could cut out the middle man to a certain degree by getting Sage themselves to do the whole rifle rather than sell stocks to Rock, who will then build them for Crane. Crane basically took Rock's submission, sent it to Sage and said "Build this." They did and Mike was pushed out of the way.


The Sage EBR stock and and the Troy SOPMOD Drop-In M-14 stocks are completely different animals and are designed to accept an unmodified M-14 or M1A receiver. Troy's SOPMOD conversion is actually the whole modified rifle.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 7:51:05 AM EST
HOMEINVADER, THANKYOU VERY MUCH FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION!

WAS THERE A EBR OR SIMILAR CONCEPT SOLICITATION #NUM.



I see the reasoning behind the stock. The top must be a BETA model?

Is the TROY CAST? AND THE SAGE EXTRUDED?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:06:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 8:12:12 AM EST by Different]
The Troy Industries Rock SOPMOD M14 stock started out as an aluminum body and steel butt rails but now has a magnesium alloy body and titanium rails. Reference: My interview with Steve Troy and Tony Lawrence at the February, 2004 SHOT Show while taking the photo posted above.

The stock on the top rifle in the photo is a prototype Drop In M14 stock created by Tony Lawrence. It was fiber glass. The Drop In M14 stock now offered is made of an aluminum body with titanium rails. The Drop In M14 stock is different from the SOPMOD M14 stock. The SOPMOD M14 stock is part of the entire conversion as mentioned above.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:10:05 AM EST
Here's the information sheet from Troy Industries on the Drop In M14 stock:

www.troyind.com/TROY%20M14Stockinfo.pdf
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:19:32 AM EST
THANK YOU FOR LETTING MY USE THE PIC (VISUAL REFERENCE IS VERY HELPFULL)

DO YOU HAVE ANY PICTS OF JUST THE BARRELED RECEIVER (ROCK)? PROBABLY NOT BUT IVE GOTTA ASK.

So did Mike Rock get screwed out if the contract completely by CRANE with the help of manufacturirng by SAGE. I heard scuttlebut but didn't listen to closely.

I see The SAGE EBR was at Blackwater but no TROY! HMMM.

5R technology is less bearing surface contact on the projectile by the lands correct? (circa ENFIELD WWII)

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 1:48:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 6:03:17 PM EST by Law483]
REXLOGIC and all others,

Here are links to my pages that explain each stock and show the SOPMOD uncovered.

Rock SOPMOD M-14 Commando Carbine Conversion by Troy Industries Inc.



Troy Industries Inc. Modular Stock System
There are no pictures of the Troy M.S.S. The info on my site is a reprint of the info on the TroyInd site. Imagine the SOPMOD stock with a longer forend and hard-coat anodized aluminum. BTW, the Troy stock accepts standard AR grips with no modification; non standard grips need only to be ground to fit-very simple.

LAW483 Dop-in Battlestock



The LAW483 Battlestock was designed and made by me for Troy Industries to be displayed at SHOT Show 2004. It was a prototype/concept stock displayed at the Troy Industries table. Troy has since decided to make his dop-in closer to the Rock design that he manufactures, and it promises to be excellent. I still make my stocks by hand, and they are built to the customer's specification.

Troy Industries Inc.'s handguards and folding sights are developing an excellent following in the the AR world; the M.S.S. will be excellent as well.

Take Care,

Tony
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 4:48:59 PM EST
TONY,

You are awesome thankyou! That was the pretty close to exactly what I wanted. Im glad to see pics of the gas system on your site. Just to get an idea from an engineering standpoint. I am looking forward to the M.S.S. offering also.

Any info on the SAGE stock would be great. Thanks MIKE





Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:24:34 AM EST
Does ANYONE have a actual picture of the Troy M.S.S.?

I want to get either the Sage EBR or the Troy M.S.S. for my M1A as soon as possible but it's hard to decide without seeing both of them.

I actually almost bought the Sage Monday morning but managed to make myself wait a few days to see what troy comes out with.

How does the Troy compare to the Sage? Does it need glass bedding (the Sage doesn't)?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 5:42:02 AM EST
I have never handled the Troy, but I do have a Sage. It's robust, but heavy. The cheekrest/collapsible stock isn't the most comfortable setup in the world, but it's functional.

Difficult to add magnified optics due to eye-relief being too long, unless you add a reciever-mounted scope mount, which will add even more weight.

Pistol grip on the sage is just so-so. It can not be swapped out with an AR-style grip.

They look sweet and shoot sweet though.



www.artifex.ws/m14.html
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:22:10 AM EST
THANK YOU DIFFERENT & LAW 483! After doing some more research I have found the answers I was looking for. I appreciate your help very much. If I have anymore questions I will contact you through your websites. Thanks again Mike!
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:43:40 PM EST
I have the CJ Weapons STRIKER RAIL SYSTEM

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 12:47:50 PM EST
Thanks for the picture and info on the Sage EBR REXLOGIC.

One question...

If you had the choice again, would you buy the SAGE right now or wait until more information (PICTURES) is available about the TROY M.S.S.?

Okay, maybe two or three questions...

How do you like the forward handguard cover attachment of the SAGE?

What tools did you need/use to install it?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 11:33:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2004 11:33:33 AM EST by Duffy]
Artifex, I was messing around with mine last week and found that a FAL grip may work with modifications, but the FAL grip is angled so steeply it hurts my wrist if I hold it long enough. Are you still working on a new grip for yours?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:10:07 AM EST
Duffy, haven't done anything with it recently, but yeah, I intend to figure out something for it. What I'd like to do is build something that would allow AR grips to fit it. I tried a pachmayr slip-over grip, but it was a little too big. I may experiment with others though.

The installation takes a flash-hider castle nut wrench, some allen wrenches, a multi-tool and gas system wrench. Drift punches and hammer. You have to remove the gas system and flash hider completely to install the new op-rod guide, which is held into the stock by 3 screws of different lengths. Make sure you put the screws back in the proper order, or you'll freeze-up the op-rod.

Don't forget to remove the set screw from the front sight before attempting to loosen the castle nut!
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 5:41:50 PM EST
Yuck!!! I hate seeing M4 carbine stocks on rifles they weren't designed for.

Reminds me of the junkyard engineers now putting M4 carbine stocks on AKs and shotguns.

Don't cut corners. Design a stock for your new system and don't use a stock that was meant to mount to a buffer tube.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 7:19:40 AM EST
Artifex, please keep me informed, I'm dying to replace the grip. Functionality wise it's ok, but it places the hand lower than I would have liked, and it's butt ugly

Here's the one I modified somewhat. In order to fit the Smith Enterprise mount on it, I had to saw off 3 rails closest to the ejection port. I bought 3 TangoDown rail covers, and 2 rails made for AR15 handguards and made my own handguard. It's heavier than Sage's own handguard that seems like an afterthought (yeah, we can really use MORE weight on the Sage stock ), but it's more comfortable.
With the Smith mount and TA11, the cheekrest has to be raised. The scope to bore height is taller than that of an AR15, I think I may just go with an EOTech

Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:15:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 1:19:58 PM EST by Law483]
Inocent_bystander,


Yuck!!! I hate seeing M4 carbine stocks on rifles they weren't designed for.

Reminds me of the junkyard engineers now putting M4 carbine stocks on AKs and shotguns.

Don't cut corners. Design a stock for your new system and don't use a stock that was meant to mount to a buffer tube.



I am designing a new folding assembly and putting some of my custom designs into production; however, this take time and money.

In the mean time, many are familiar with the M4 style stock and request it. Off The Shelf it gives the ability to have an adjustable LOP to adapt to changing environments and shooters. It is available in many different styles now as well. One company even makes a "buffer tube" with a sealed removable cap to use it as a storage tube for non-standard applications. While it may not look "right", it gives tactical flexibility for a reasonble price.

Take Care,

Tony
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 1:33:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Artifex:
I have never handled the Troy, but I do have a Sage. It's robust, but heavy. The cheekrest/collapsible stock isn't the most comfortable setup in the world, but it's functional.

Difficult to add magnified optics due to eye-relief being too long, unless you add a reciever-mounted scope mount, which will add even more weight.

Pistol grip on the sage is just so-so. It can not be swapped out with an AR-style grip.

They look sweet and shoot sweet though.

www.artifex.ws/images/m14.jpg

www.artifex.ws/m14.html



Do any of you have Sages web address?? Also, whats the actuall cost of the stock??
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 3:47:45 AM EST
Click on this link and scroll down for contact information regarding Sage International:

www.westillcare.org/pdf/Sage_Flyer3.pdf
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 1:40:51 AM EST
If anyone is interested, mine is for sale up on the E.E. forum

I'm re-configuring my M-1A back into a CMP-legal competition rifle, so the Sage would just be a $700 block of aluminum sitting on my workbench.

Mine comes with all the accessories (top, bottom, left and right rails, plastic forearm and sling rail attachment.)

I checked out the Fulton armory price, they have it advertized for about $500 plus almost another $300 for all the accessories. I got it on sale because of the national matches, and I'm willing to pass along the savings.

I'm asking $650 + shipping for the stock and all accessories.

I'm also interested in trades for other M-14 stocks (fiberglass) or optics (IOR, Leupold, trijicon) or HK-91/PSG-1/MSG-90 accessories (stocks, mounts, handguards, etc...)

If anyone's interested, make me an offer!

Thanks!

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