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Posted: 11/2/2005 3:30:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 11:49:20 PM EDT by 7KOPPER]




Well, after two weeks of spare time here she is. Much thanks to Oliver at www.ironridgeguns.com for putting out an awesome weapon and bearing with me and this design idea.

Remington 870 ($100 from a local pawn shop) cut barrel and mag tube to 9".
EoTech 512
Cavlary arms AR-15 stock adaptor and upper rail
Surefire forend (milled and lathed down to size)
Surefire Scout light (not pictured)
Magpul M93B
Magpul MIAD
Iron Armor Coating, Cerakote (by Ironridge Guns)
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 3:42:05 PM EDT
OK, that IS bad ass looking.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 3:43:18 PM EDT
Sweet!
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 3:52:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2005 3:53:20 PM EDT by Mr10anahaf]
Don't know why, but to me that is the most kickass gun I have see in a long time. I would however like to see a pic or vid of an average size person holding/shooting it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 3:56:59 PM EDT
Nice shoty, but why you need an optic on a short barrel ?
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 4:18:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2005 4:18:42 PM EDT by TROJANII]
How many rounds does that hold? And is a 9 inch barrel legal?
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 4:22:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BallisticTip:
Nice shoty, but why you need an optic on a short barrel ?



Man there is no way I'd put a bead or ghost ring on this thing, wanted to do it right the first time. Although this will more than likely become a demo shotty for Ironridge Guns and Magpul Industries, it's intended use is for entry. The EoTech is the most quick on target for me. Test firing had about a 8" group from 55' with slugs and suprisingly enough the pattern on Federal's 00 buck are very close to longer barreled shotty's.

I'll try to get some pics of me with the gun so ya can get a good idear of the size. The photo does not do the size justice. Just remember that the barrel is 9". Total length, closed stock is 25" and 29" with an open stock.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 4:22:30 PM EDT
I'm in love.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 4:23:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TROJANII:
How many rounds does that hold? And is a 9 inch barrel legal?



3 in the tube and 1 in the hole. Class three item, that's right, tax stamp.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 4:55:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:

Originally Posted By TROJANII:
How many rounds does that hold? And is a 9 inch barrel legal?



3 in the tube and 1 in the hole. Class three item, that's right, tax stamp.



Now would that just be the $5.00 AOW stamp? Or because it involves manufacturing does that require a different stamp? Meaning can you just buy an 870, file for a $5.00 AOW stamp and when you have it , just cut down the Bbl yourself?

I understand there was much more done to yours, I'm just curious about AOW's an you seem to have first hand knowledge.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 5:26:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2005 5:41:59 PM EDT by 7KOPPER]

Originally Posted By Mr10anahaf:

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:

Originally Posted By TROJANII:
How many rounds does that hold? And is a 9 inch barrel legal?



3 in the tube and 1 in the hole. Class three item, that's right, tax stamp.



Now would that just be the $5.00 AOW stamp? Or because it involves manufacturing does that require a different stamp? Meaning can you just buy an 870, file for a $5.00 AOW stamp and when you have it , just cut down the Bbl yourself?

I understand there was much more done to yours, I'm just curious about AOW's an you seem to have first hand knowledge.



Don't quote me but here's what I think....

shot guns that come from the factory with a pistol grip are $5 AOW stamp. If you get the AOW stamp you can never put a stock on the weapon. The $200 stamp allows any configuation of stock and/or pistol grip.

Don't quote me on this info, I'll check around for a better answer. Anyone here know the specifics?

edit...wanted to add, and you may know this already, there is a shit ton of work that goes into a 9" shotty. The barrel has to be cut and crowned, mag tube cut, mag tube re threaded, foreend slide ass. threaded, foreend cut, milled and turned, barrel lug shaped and brazed on the barrel. All of that just for the lenght adjustment.

If you want a shorty but a little cheaper, you may want to go with a 14'er. ALOT less metal work.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 6:04:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2005 6:06:13 PM EDT by Mr10anahaf]

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:
I understand there was much more done to yours, I'm just curious about AOW's an you seem to have first hand knowledge.
Don't quote me but here's what I think....

shot guns that come from the factory with a pistol grip are $5 AOW stamp. If you get the AOW stamp you can never put a stock on the weapon. The $200 stamp allows any configuation of stock and/or pistol grip.





.

I guess I was way off, I thought that AOW status only applied to bbl length when it came to shotguns( smooth bore ). I had no idea pistol grip vs stock had anything to do with it. LMK what you find out.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 6:27:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2005 6:29:05 PM EDT by rtech]
These going to be a factory or custom offering by your company?

Me thinks me might have to pony up the dough for one.

Of course, I could F1 one and do the build myself.

Lets see.

$300 stock assy.
??? 870/car 15 adaptor (not sure what they go for) Mesa Tactical, by chance?
$200 tax stamp
$250 Rem 870
$400 asst gunsmithing or tools.
$200 forend
??? paint scheme
$300 optics
??? any extras I've forgotten or are unseen.

That's one expensive 870.

I'd like to see one of those folding vert grips on the front to be able to sheath it on the back, quiver style.

Very nice.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 6:34:28 PM EDT
Bad looking shotgun, very nice, mad props...not sure why you need the Eotech other than looks. I'm pretty sure you'd be just as good shot without it. I suppose it's like putting after market rims on a car/truck.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 7:58:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2005 8:19:44 PM EDT by 7KOPPER]

Originally Posted By rtech:
These going to be a factory or custom offering by your company?

Me thinks me might have to pony up the dough for one.

Of course, I could F1 one and do the build myself.

Lets see.

$300 stock assy.
??? 870/car 15 adaptor (not sure what they go for) Mesa Tactical, by chance?
$200 tax stamp
$250 Rem 870
$400 asst gunsmithing or tools.
$200 forend
??? paint scheme
$300 optics
??? any extras I've forgotten or are unseen.

That's one expensive 870.

I'd like to see one of those folding vert grips on the front to be able to sheath it on the back, quiver style.

Very nice.



Oliver at Ironridge can fix ya up with pretty much anything you want as far as custom jobs. There are ways to go about this in a much cheaper way. If you go for a longer barrel, no optics, non-railed forend, standard 4 position stock, standard AR grip and a different stock adaptor you'll save a lot of money. Just be aware that Cav arms makes a high quality adaptor and if you go with a Mesa Tac or TSA adaptor a Magpul M93 will NOT fit. edit mesa tac's adaptor will fit a Magpul stock, only the high mount. As far as I know Cav Arms is the only adaptor that will work with the M93 and like I said is very high quality.

Side note, retail from ground up for this thing is around 2k. Expensive yes, but the cost of a one of a kind bad rider 870 is priceless.
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 3:40:35 PM EDT
ya we had a great time manufactureing this toy.
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 10:21:06 PM EDT
Cool man, just cool.

Right on.
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 10:35:11 PM EDT
Damn now I want one of those......

maybe in a slightly longer barrel though, a 14" or soemthing for that extra round....
Link Posted: 11/4/2005 4:02:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
Damn now I want one of those......

maybe in a slightly longer barrel though, a 14" or soemthing for that extra round....



The 14"ers are quite a bit eaiser to put together and a hell of a lot less expensive. If you're serious get a hold of Oliver at Ironridge Guns.
Link Posted: 11/4/2005 9:03:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
Damn now I want one of those......

maybe in a slightly longer barrel though, a 14" or soemthing for that extra round....



The 14"ers are quite a bit eaiser to put together and a hell of a lot less expensive. If you're serious get a hold of Oliver at Ironridge Guns.




Probably have to build it myself, look where I ma at
Link Posted: 11/4/2005 11:45:56 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 9:12:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:





Now I have shotgun wood.


I re linked the photo in my post, because I found that by the time I read all the posts about the shotty I mised seeing the gun, and scrolling back up was a bit too long to wait to see it again.
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 2:04:28 PM EDT
Immaculate.

Link Posted: 11/6/2005 12:03:08 AM EDT
I think my drool just shorted out my keyboard!!!Awesome SG man!!!
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 3:41:11 AM EDT
Hopefully I'll be going up to the mountians this week (mon, tues, or wed) for some pics of live fire.
I'll post them ASAP. Thanks to all for the positive feed back. Spoke to Oliver again yesterday, he is willing to take on some more of these if there is anyone interested. (plug)
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 7:47:35 AM EDT
Thanks for the great vibs....Took alot work but We think it was worth the time and effort. I think we will make a run in 12.5" and 14". have fun happy shooting
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 8:10:55 AM EDT
WOW!

It is a beautiful weapon and a darn fine design, I like it very much.
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 9:35:07 AM EDT
Here's the skinny on NFA stuff:

To make any NFA firearm (AOW, Short-Barrel Shotgun or Short-Barrel Rifle), it's a $200 Making Tax. The Transfer Tax on an AOW is only $5 versus another $200 on a Short-Barrel Shotgun or SBR. If you make it yourself, there's no way around the $200 tax.

As for the differences, an AOW shotgun technically isn't a shotgun, but a Smooth-Bore Pistol and CANNOT have a buttstock on it. This shotgun is a Short-Barrel Shotgun, not an AOW, regardless of how it started. To qualify as an AOW, a shotgun must be one of 2 configurations: Either is was manufactured as a pistol-gripped shotgun, never having had a buttstock attached (like a Mossberg Cruiser) OR it had to start as a stripped, bare receiver. The shotgun in question cannot ever have had a buttstock mounted to it. This is why it's tough to find Remington shotguns that can qualify as AOWs, they just never made pistol-grip only models and don't sell stripped receivers, generally speaking. AOWs are usually Mossbergs because they are easy to be had in qualifying models.

As for the optics on this shotgun, using these AR stock adapters makes it virtually impossible to get a cheek weld low enough for your eye lt use a rifle sight or bead front site. With an AR stock adapter in place, the bore axis is below the centerline of the stock. Try it, you'll see. The AR adapters are very cool and useful, but almost require an optic like this.
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 9:38:16 AM EDT
Nice shotgun

Max
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 9:51:21 AM EDT
tagalicious

Link Posted: 11/6/2005 12:21:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
As for the optics on this shotgun, using these AR stock adapters makes it virtually impossible to get a cheek weld low enough for your eye lt use a rifle sight or bead front site. With an AR stock adapter in place, the bore axis is below the centerline of the stock. Try it, you'll see. The AR adapters are very cool and useful, but almost require an optic like this.



Dumb question time.

What about using the Cavalry Arms AR15 Butt stock Adapter matched with their Stand Alone Rear Sight + SST-870 front sight? Would that combo raise the sights up enough to be usable on a 14"?

So, imagine this but with a 14" barrel.



Just got the LLC paperwork filled out and am started to head down the happy path.

wganz

Link Posted: 11/6/2005 1:33:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
As for the optics on this shotgun, using these AR stock adapters makes it virtually impossible to get a cheek weld low enough for your eye lt use a rifle sight or bead front site. With an AR stock adapter in place, the bore axis is below the centerline of the stock. Try it, you'll see. The AR adapters are very cool and useful, but almost require an optic like this.



Dumb question time.

What about using the Cavalry Arms AR15 Butt stock Adapter matched with their Stand Alone Rear Sight + SST-870 front sight? Would that combo raise the sights up enough to be usable on a 14"?

So, imagine this but with a 14" barrel.
www.cavalryarms.com/SST-FSB-9.jpg


Just got the LLC paperwork filled out and am started to head down the happy path.

wganz




The only trouble with this idea is with a 14" barrel and sights that tall, you'll never be able to zero the weapon for the limited range of a 14" barrel. Make sense? With sights that tall, the point of aim and points of impact will never intersect at any distance. You would not be able to dial the elevation down enough to match the sweet spot of your pattern, you'll always be shooting low if you shoot point of aim with those sights, even at their lowest setting. That's why optics are so much better an option for these stock adapters. Some adapters than others in this regard, but the all exhibit this problem due to the nature of an AR stock.
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 2:55:57 PM EDT
Remington 870 can be found in a AOW format, they are hard to find but you purchase them from ????.
they do a small run of them from time to time you just have to hunt around for em.
You can mount a low angle AR adapter on a 870 to keep your line of sight down, 7kopper can fill you in on the details, Sorry I cant feed more info, or I will get my A-- riped on. hope I was of some help. Feel free to IMI me or norm E-mail. Have fun w/the pics.
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 3:00:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
As for the optics on this shotgun, using these AR stock adapters makes it virtually impossible to get a cheek weld low enough for your eye lt use a rifle sight or bead front site. With an AR stock adapter in place, the bore axis is below the centerline of the stock. Try it, you'll see. The AR adapters are very cool and useful, but almost require an optic like this.



Dumb question time.

What about using the Cavalry Arms AR15 Butt stock Adapter matched with their Stand Alone Rear Sight + SST-870 front sight? Would that combo raise the sights up enough to be usable on a 14"?

So, imagine this but with a 14" barrel.
www.cavalryarms.com/SST-FSB-9.jpg


Just got the LLC paperwork filled out and am started to head down the happy path.

wganz




The only trouble with this idea is with a 14" barrel and sights that tall, you'll never be able to zero the weapon for the limited range of a 14" barrel. Make sense? With sights that tall, the point of aim and points of impact will never intersect at any distance. You would not be able to dial the elevation down enough to match the sweet spot of your pattern, you'll always be shooting low if you shoot point of aim with those sights, even at their lowest setting. That's why optics are so much better an option for these stock adapters. Some adapters than others in this regard, but the all exhibit this problem due to the nature of an AR stock.



Makes sense. One last followup dumb question; is it then by extension of that principle of the points of aim and impact not intersecting with tall sights, that you could expect the same phenomenon with the shottie in the CavArm pix above?? Reason I ask is that I was setting up my Rem870 into the same configuration but now want to know if there would be aiming problems with it.

Thanks in advance for your time,

wganz

Link Posted: 11/6/2005 7:17:15 PM EDT
Is it possible to buy th eparts from you and slap them into my receiver up here? Just for when I have money to spend, I like to support ARFcom businesses
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 7:48:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wganz:

Makes sense. One last followup dumb question; is it then by extension of that principle of the points of aim and impact not intersecting with tall sights, that you could expect the same phenomenon with the shottie in the CavArm pix above?? Reason I ask is that I was setting up my Rem870 into the same configuration but now want to know if there would be aiming problems with it.





I think the sights are a bit much personally. Way too tall and probably the wrong thing to put on a shotgun. Again, the higher the sights are above the bore line, the farther the minimum instersection distance (zero) is from the shooter. With an 18" barrel, you're better off than with a 14", but the same problem will arise only a bit further away from you. With only 20 yards out of a shotgun (with buckshot), front AND rear sights are going to slow you down. A front optic is much faster and the best option if you're going to use an AR adapter.

Front and rears like this will also obscure your view of the target to a large degree.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 10:26:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 6:04:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 6:05:17 PM EDT by 7KOPPER]
Going out tomarrow for a shoot. I'll snap a few photo's and get them posted asap. Went to the local gun shop today (Jensen's) and had three offers. Who knows how serious they were but I was still suprised.

This is one of the local SWAT teams doing some live fire testing with the shorty and other Ironridge toys. Needless to say these guys had some serious blood flow to their wankers.


Link Posted: 11/7/2005 6:05:05 PM EDT
lets just say that with the testing we have done w/the other 9" 12.5" and 14" shotguns...The SWAT teams that are testing them, currently as of now we have had 4 teams do testing....and down range performace 20 feet-30-40-55' (Thats the full length of that range), have been beyond my/our expectation.

18" -to- 14" testing on the range indoors @ 3' from muzzel (@55' range) gave us only 50 fps drop on the FED 00 buck # 8 shot the new choice of LE depts.(Much better then the # 9. to many side flyers) dont want a Mr. num-nuts getting hit..

18"-to-14" testing the slugs we got a 100fps drop...dont think the bad guy can tell the differnce. So really not a problem going to a 14" works great in a patrol cars as well, you wont be smashing out any windows when you grab and go.... as in one of the cases w/one dept. we are working with. So if you want to pony up the cash for a tax stamp.. its a great must have toy. just in case you get bad guys in close...... with in 18". have fun.
oh, sight line is higher Abit more then a AR, point of impact is just fine with a shotgun even if you hit someone in the toe you will end up ripping off his whole leg.. ok not that dramatic. Most of what we do is for problems out to 75' gave or take depending on the load.
9" of course is best for door breeacheing and up close work.
12" we made for a PD.dept for court rooms, Hosp, jails and Less lathal. We will be doing more testing and news will be pased on. Take care.
Link Posted: 11/9/2005 11:29:09 PM EDT
Alright, didn't get a chance to get out this weekend but was able to squeeze off a few pics.

Can anyone give me a hand and host them for me? Send me an IM to let me know and I'll send them to you. Send them back hosted and I'll post 'em up. Yaeh, I know I have not host fu.
Link Posted: 11/10/2005 10:23:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/11/2005 6:07:00 PM EDT
Try to get out next week for the live fire shots, hopefully this will hold ya over.






Link Posted: 11/11/2005 7:00:56 PM EDT
Damn I want one of those badly......
Link Posted: 11/11/2005 10:51:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 5:26:10 PM EDT by 7KOPPER]
I neglected to mention how this bad boy shoots. Everyone including me has been very, very suprised at how little recoil there is compared to a standard 870. I would guess it to be 30% to 40% less. The only thing we could drum up as a reason for this is the design of the Cavalry Arms stock adaptor. The in-line position of the stock in relation to the reciever must allow the recoil to drive straight back. The standard stock is more at a downward angle. Don't know if this makes since or not. Here are some pics to help.




Link Posted: 11/14/2005 11:55:33 AM EDT
Has anyone else had the same experience with the Cav stock adaptor? Just curious if this is the reason for the reduced recoil.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 12:18:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 7:24:34 PM EDT
thats one bad puppy
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 2:33:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 5:24:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
Damn now I want one of those......

maybe in a slightly longer barrel though, a 14" or soemthing for that extra round....



You could get 5+1 with a 14". Interesting looking design. Very nice.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 7:02:48 AM EDT
Great pictures. You now have more on the gun then in the gun, huh?

Now we need to look at sling options and or other ways to carry it.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 7:08:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 7KOPPER:




What's that???
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