Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 7/21/2016 6:45:58 AM EDT
Thinking about buying a reverse stretched Zenith/MKE MP-5 type pistol and I was wondering if I could have it re-engraved it to read "MP5"  PRIOR to submitting a form 1on it?  If possible, I'm sure I would have to take a picture of the upper receiver with the serial number as well and submit it with the form 1.

Also, how hard is it to change the model number AFTER its been approved by ATF as a SBR?

Thanks for looking!!
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 9:40:26 AM EDT
Tag for interest
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 10:21:30 AM EDT
FWIW, The Zenith is not a reverse stretch gun. The RS stands for regular size or something like that. Confuses a lot of people.
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 1:54:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye99:
FWIW, The Zenith is not a reverse stretch gun. The RS stands for regular size or something like that. Confuses a lot of people.
View Quote


This. It's not a reverse stretch.

Originally Posted By bergunx:
Thinking about buying a reverse stretched Zenith/MKE MP-5 type pistol and I was wondering if I could have it re-engraved it to read "MP5"  PRIOR to submitting a form 1on it?  If possible, I'm sure I would have to take a picture of the upper receiver with the serial number as well and submit it with the form 1.

Also, how hard is it to change the model number AFTER its been approved by ATF as a SBR?

Thanks for looking!!
View Quote


But to answer your question, I believe it's perfectly acceptable to re-mark a Title I firearm but not a Title II firearm, so you would need to remark before submitting. I've never had any interest in doing it, so I haven't read up that much, but the info is out there.
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 3:50:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GeneralPurpose:


This. It's not a reverse stretch.



But to answer your question, I believe it's perfectly acceptable to re-mark a Title I firearm but not a Title II firearm, so you would need to remark before submitting. I've never had any interest in doing it, so I haven't read up that much, but the info is out there.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GeneralPurpose:
Originally Posted By deadeye99:
FWIW, The Zenith is not a reverse stretch gun. The RS stands for regular size or something like that. Confuses a lot of people.


This. It's not a reverse stretch.

Originally Posted By bergunx:
Thinking about buying a reverse stretched Zenith/MKE MP-5 type pistol and I was wondering if I could have it re-engraved it to read "MP5"  PRIOR to submitting a form 1on it?  If possible, I'm sure I would have to take a picture of the upper receiver with the serial number as well and submit it with the form 1.

Also, how hard is it to change the model number AFTER its been approved by ATF as a SBR?

Thanks for looking!!


But to answer your question, I believe it's perfectly acceptable to re-mark a Title I firearm but not a Title II firearm, so you would need to remark before submitting. I've never had any interest in doing it, so I haven't read up that much, but the info is out there.


Maybe my google Fu is weak, got any leads?
So you can't like grind off the original markings, right? So it's marked twice?
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 4:08:42 PM EDT
Only the serial number is legally protected on a Title I firearm (unless additional local laws protect other markings).
You may grind/mill/Tig-weld the other markings away. You may then remark.


All markings are protected on a Title II firearm. That's why you have to change them before applying.


 
Link Posted: 7/21/2016 9:56:54 PM EDT
If you could do this. Then how would it work for if lets I wanted to SBR it as well?

Sorry OP don't mean to thread jack but I would think it's related yes?
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 12:36:57 AM EDT
JayRock-PHX, I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems that you're asking the same question as the OP. None of the markings can be changed after it becomes a Title II firearm (which includes SBR). The OP is wise to consider sending a photo of the current markings with the Form 1 application.

Link Posted: 7/22/2016 12:27:01 PM EDT
To each their own, always, but isn't this a little bit like putting corvette badges on your Chevy Spark? I'm having trouble understanding the logic of doing this, especially paying money (engraving/refinishing) to do it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 3:01:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2016 3:01:51 PM EDT by bradpierson26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
To each their own, always, but isn't this a little bit like putting corvette badges on your Chevy Spark? I'm having trouble understanding the logic of doing this, especially paying money (engraving/refinishing) to do it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote

C'mon now, maybe like Corvette badges on a Camaro would be a better analogy.
People could often say the same about "why spend $4,000+ on a semi-auto"
Why does a colt roll mark matter to some people? Or Noveske or BCM or Mega?
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 4:46:05 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
JayRock-PHX, I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems that you're asking the same question as the OP. None of the markings can be changed after it becomes a Title II firearm (which includes SBR). The OP is wise to consider sending a photo of the current markings with the Form 1 application.
View Quote



I feel stupid. I think I missed the OP's part where he said SBR. I originally thot he wanted to just remark it to say mp5. But yea that was my question.

It would seem like the ATF might not approve a form 1 that way?  Cuz it wouldn't match up with what they had for that certain manufacturer.

But what the hell do I know? I can't even get them to approve my SBR after 5monthes!!
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 4:53:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JayRock-PHX:



I feel stupid. I think I missed the OP's part where he said SBR. I originally thot he wanted to just remark it to say mp5. But yea that was my question.

It would seem like the ATF might not approve a form 1 that way?  Cuz it wouldn't match up with what they had for that certain manufacturer.

But what the hell do I know? I can't even get them to approve my SBR after 5monthes!!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JayRock-PHX:
Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
JayRock-PHX, I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems that you're asking the same question as the OP. None of the markings can be changed after it becomes a Title II firearm (which includes SBR). The OP is wise to consider sending a photo of the current markings with the Form 1 application.



I feel stupid. I think I missed the OP's part where he said SBR. I originally thot he wanted to just remark it to say mp5. But yea that was my question.

It would seem like the ATF might not approve a form 1 that way?  Cuz it wouldn't match up with what they had for that certain manufacturer.

But what the hell do I know? I can't even get them to approve my SBR after 5monthes!!


They will. My USC remarked UMP, and SL8 remarked G36K got approved. Just do it before you apply. Sending/submitting a photo of the re-marked model wouldnt hurt either.
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 5:05:57 PM EDT
This thread may be of interest.  Not an MKE build, but a question (and answer) about markings on an 80% lower

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/697363_7_7_UPDATE___Talked_to_the_BATF_today_re__80_ers_and_their_markings.html
Link Posted: 7/22/2016 9:32:53 PM EDT
There is nothing illegal about changing the markings on a Title 1 firearm with the exception of messing with the serial number.

So from a legal standpoint there is nothing that prevents you from remarking a Zenith MP5 clone to say "MP5" on the top rib. However you need to do it before submitting the F1 as it is illegal to alter or change any markings on a Title II/NFA  firearms.

From a practical standpoint you will need to remove the finish, tig weld over the old markings, re-contour the top rib, re-engrave, and then refinish.

I have personally done a similar operation on an LSC flat to get rid of the "spider" marking and it was more work than I expected.

There may be a limited subset of gunsmiths out there who have the ability and willingness to remark a Zenith/MKE gun to a deutsche model designation.  (Personally I see it as not much  different than remarking a HK94 to a MP5 as neither a Zenith or a HK94 is really MP5 and remarking HK94s or SP89s to MP5 is extremely common)

The ATF should accept MP5 as the model if the designation has been changed and now reflects the current model engraving on the firearm.  I personally  have approved SBR applications that have "MP5" as the model designation for both converted HK94s and Form 1 builds from flats.

In regards to the reverse stretch, all of the MKE guns I have seen have a "K" rear end, so it would be a monumental amount of work to convert a Zenith K variant pistol into a reverse stretch, which  is a full size MP5 ass end with a K front end. You would effectively have to cut and weld a full size MP5 rear onto the Zenith K host.

Pic of a MP5 reverse stretch with a K front and the ability to take a normal full size MP5 stock. (not mine)



Link Posted: 7/23/2016 12:11:08 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:

C'mon now, maybe like Corvette badges on a Camaro would be a better analogy.
People could often say the same about "why spend $4,000+ on a semi-auto"
Why does a colt roll mark matter to some people? Or Noveske or BCM or Mega?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
To each their own, always, but isn't this a little bit like putting corvette badges on your Chevy Spark? I'm having trouble understanding the logic of doing this, especially paying money (engraving/refinishing) to do it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

C'mon now, maybe like Corvette badges on a Camaro would be a better analogy.
People could often say the same about "why spend $4,000+ on a semi-auto"
Why does a colt roll mark matter to some people? Or Noveske or BCM or Mega?


I'll never understand the rollmark thing either...but if we're going to go with that analogy, why not just buy a bushel of Anderson Arms $35 lowers and have the colt rollmark added to them all?
Link Posted: 7/23/2016 8:28:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2016 8:31:24 AM EDT by eodinert]
When Zenith first started importing the full-sized MP5 clones, they were calling it a 'reverse stretch'.  People said 'Hey, that's not a reverse stretch' and they said '..but it is!'.  It would seem at some point, after I'm sure what was a million emails and phone calls asking them why their reverse stretch wasn't a reverse stretch, they realized they could not single handedly change the MP5 naming conventions and gave up on calling it that.

Having said that, HK never even made a reverse stretch, so there has never been a real MP5 marked like that (I know the aftermarket has created some).  I think that money would be better spent on ammo.


Here is an interesting thought.

The ATF says that an SBR is an SBR because of its configuration, and if you put it in a pistol configuration, it's no longer an SBR (and you can do all the title I stuff like cross state lines).  You SHOULD be able to take the stock off of your SBR, change the markings, then put your stock back on.



Link Posted: 7/23/2016 9:43:26 AM EDT
Buy the POF mp5.it is already maked "MP5".
Link Posted: 7/23/2016 2:41:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2016 2:51:34 PM EDT by bradpierson26]
[/ul]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:


They will. My USC remarked UMP, and SL8 remarked G36K got approved. Just do it before you apply. Sending/submitting a photo of the re-marked model wouldnt hurt either.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:
Originally Posted By JayRock-PHX:
Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
JayRock-PHX, I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems that you're asking the same question as the OP. None of the markings can be changed after it becomes a Title II firearm (which includes SBR). The OP is wise to consider sending a photo of the current markings with the Form 1 application.



I feel stupid. I think I missed the OP's part where he said SBR. I originally thot he wanted to just remark it to say mp5. But yea that was my question.

It would seem like the ATF might not approve a form 1 that way?  Cuz it wouldn't match up with what they had for that certain manufacturer.

But what the hell do I know? I can't even get them to approve my SBR after 5monthes!!


They will. My USC remarked UMP, and SL8 remarked G36K got approved. Just do it before you apply. Sending/submitting a photo of the re-marked model wouldnt hurt either.


Can you go into details about the remarking process? What happened to existing markings?
Pics?

ETA: I see jbntex's instructions, I assume you did something similar?
Recommendations on a 'smith to do it?
Link Posted: 7/23/2016 2:45:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jekbrown:


I'll never understand the rollmark thing either...but if we're going to go with that analogy, why not just buy a bushel of Anderson Arms $35 lowers and have the colt rollmark added to them all?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
To each their own, always, but isn't this a little bit like putting corvette badges on your Chevy Spark? I'm having trouble understanding the logic of doing this, especially paying money (engraving/refinishing) to do it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

C'mon now, maybe like Corvette badges on a Camaro would be a better analogy.
People could often say the same about "why spend $4,000+ on a semi-auto"
Why does a colt roll mark matter to some people? Or Noveske or BCM or Mega?


I'll never understand the rollmark thing either...but if we're going to go with that analogy, why not just buy a bushel of Anderson Arms $35 lowers and have the colt rollmark added to them all?


It's getting more common in the clone community to do 80% builds and mark them like M4s or MK18s
Link Posted: 7/23/2016 5:09:28 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
[/ul]

Can you go into details about the remarking process? What happened to existing markings?
Pics?

ETA: I see jbntex's instructions, I assume you did something similar?
Recommendations on a 'smith to do it?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
[/ul]
Originally Posted By Gopherboy128:
Originally Posted By JayRock-PHX:
Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
JayRock-PHX, I'm not sure I understand your question. It seems that you're asking the same question as the OP. None of the markings can be changed after it becomes a Title II firearm (which includes SBR). The OP is wise to consider sending a photo of the current markings with the Form 1 application.



I feel stupid. I think I missed the OP's part where he said SBR. I originally thot he wanted to just remark it to say mp5. But yea that was my question.

It would seem like the ATF might not approve a form 1 that way?  Cuz it wouldn't match up with what they had for that certain manufacturer.

But what the hell do I know? I can't even get them to approve my SBR after 5monthes!!


They will. My USC remarked UMP, and SL8 remarked G36K got approved. Just do it before you apply. Sending/submitting a photo of the re-marked model wouldnt hurt either.


Can you go into details about the remarking process? What happened to existing markings?
Pics?

ETA: I see jbntex's instructions, I assume you did something similar?
Recommendations on a 'smith to do it?


Tom Bostic converted them. I am assuming he filled in old engravings with a type of epoxy and engraved new model info and then refinished. UMP & G36 are composite though so no welding, etc.
Link Posted: 7/23/2016 8:17:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Can you go into details about the remarking process? What happened to existing markings?
Pics?

ETA: I see jbntex's instructions, I assume you did something similar?
Recommendations on a 'smith to do it?
View Quote


Two totally different processes between remarking a sheet metal roller locked receiver which is a tig/recontour operation and remarking a SLC or UMP which is a plastic receiver over a metal skeleton.    

I have welded over and remarked sheet metal HKs and aluminum AR15s but never done a polymer receiver.  

The only two folks I know of who have experience filling and remarking SLC/UMP are TBostic and Joe at Dakota Tactical.   I believe they use a plastic weld process similar to how they graft a G36 back end onto an SLC receiver to fill in the old engraving and then remark with a laser.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/15/yourself-hk-g36-rifle/
Link Posted: 7/24/2016 12:09:37 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbntex:


Two totally different processes between remarking a sheet metal roller locked receiver which is a tig/recontour operation and remarking a SLC or UMP which is a plastic receiver over a metal skeleton.    

I have welded over and remarked sheet metal HKs and aluminum AR15s but never done a polymer receiver.  

The only two folks I know of who have experience filling and remarking SLC/UMP are TBostic and Joe at Dakota Tactical.   I believe they use a plastic weld process similar to how they graft a G36 back end onto an SLC receiver to fill in the old engraving and then remark with a laser.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/15/yourself-hk-g36-rifle/
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jbntex:
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Can you go into details about the remarking process? What happened to existing markings?
Pics?

ETA: I see jbntex's instructions, I assume you did something similar?
Recommendations on a 'smith to do it?


Two totally different processes between remarking a sheet metal roller locked receiver which is a tig/recontour operation and remarking a SLC or UMP which is a plastic receiver over a metal skeleton.    

I have welded over and remarked sheet metal HKs and aluminum AR15s but never done a polymer receiver.  

The only two folks I know of who have experience filling and remarking SLC/UMP are TBostic and Joe at Dakota Tactical.   I believe they use a plastic weld process similar to how they graft a G36 back end onto an SLC receiver to fill in the old engraving and then remark with a laser.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/15/yourself-hk-g36-rifle/

Forgot the UMP/G36 was polymer. I'm only interested in the MP5 aspect
Link Posted: 7/24/2016 7:31:26 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TW200:
Buy the POF mp5.it is already maked "MP5".
View Quote


Thanks for all the replies!!  I'm still planning on picking up one and having it remarked PRIOR to submitting a Form 1 on it.

I've submitted a Form 1 on my currently own POF MP5 pistol, but the Zenith/MKE versions appear to be superior to the POF ones... IMHO.  I picked up the POF about a year prior to MKE importing their version... I wish I had a crystal ball, but I don't. I also own a real HK-94 (CA-DOJ) carbine, but decided not to touch it since it has a very good value in its original form, so it's hands off for now.

As for the "Corvette badging" thing, I don't know and will never understand that thought process... I'm not trying to pass off a MKE firearm as a HK firearm.  As for the model "MP5," its no different than say "M16" or "G3," which IMHO are a type/model of weapons NOT a manufacturer.  Many licensed/unlicensed firearms manufacturers use "MP5," "M16," G3," etc..., on their own products and to the best of my knowledge, they're not trying to pass off their product as real a "Colt," or "Heckler and Koch" firearm(s).

As for all the lucky owners/fan boys of a select-fire Heckler and Koch MP5, I would put money that your "real" MP5 started out as a HK-94 carbine prior to May 1986.

A POF or a MKE MP5 "type" SBR carbine will be the closes I'll ever come to owning a real MP5, outside of using one in my line of work.  BTW, MKE stamps their select-fire MP5s as MP5.
Link Posted: 7/24/2016 11:56:34 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bergunx:
I also own a real HK-94 (CA-DOJ) carbine, but decided not to touch it since it has a very good value in its original form, so it's hands off for now..
View Quote


Only way I would touch that is with a genuine HK MP5 barrel. Otherwise, just leave it alone.
Top Top