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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 9/9/2002 8:00:36 AM EST
Hello all,

I am trying to decide what platform to build my 1st actual "precision rifle" on. I am looking mainly at the 3 listed above, unless you can suggest better rifles.

Now, with what I hear, the Rem. 700 PSS is by far the best rifle for the money. Accurate, inexpensive, and can be modded any way you wan't. I'd REALLY like an m40a2, but I am having a hard time justifying paying 3x the price of a 700 PSS. Is the AWC m40a2 WORTH the extra $$$???

Also, consiter this: I want to surpress this rifle, adding 6 or more inches to OAL. How long is too long? Should I get the LTR to save 6" lenth? How does the LTR compair to the PSS and AWC m40a2 for accuracy? As far as I can tell, the PSS is 46.5" long, the LTR is 6" shoter, so 40.5" long, and the AWC is IIRC 46" long with 24" barrel? For compairison, the AR-10(t) is 43.5" long w/24" barrel, and I like the lenth of that:-).

One of my concerns, was the 1 in 9 twist in the LTR. Why not stay 1 in 12? Is it because at 1 in 12 it would not make 2 full revs? Would a PSS cut down to 20, 22, or 24" be better than an LTR?

Etc, etc, etc. . . .

Thanks for any help, info, and advice,

Link Posted: 9/9/2002 12:41:26 PM EST

I assume that your choice is revolving around the .308 cartridge. The 26" PSS and 20" LTR both have phenomenal reputations for sub MOA accuracy out of the box. The main difference between the PSS and LTR will be velocity. If your planning on shooting out to 1000 yards, the 26" barrel will offer a better trajectory to that distance.

Out to 700 yards the LTR should perform just as well as the PSS. I'm not saying the LTR will not reach out to 1000, just that the energy retained in the bullet at that distance will mean it's more likely to be blown around by wind.

The LTR is a little lighter, as it has a shorter barrel and is also fluted, the stock also has a slimmer profile on the forearm. If you planning on adding a can to it, the decreased length might be just what you looking for, and the can will actually increase the accuracy of the rifle.

It is not unheard of to pull an LTR out of the box, and have 1/2 moa accuracy shooting match grade commercial ammo.

I have no references for the m40a2 platform. I'm sure that it is a custom 'accurized' rifle, and it comes with all the bells and whistles.

For the money, and LTR is a great rifle, that offers everything the PSS does out to 800 yards, and is lighter and easier to carry if your going to hunt with it.

Hope this helps in your decision making process. ANY of the rifles you listed are great choices.

Check around on any of the precision sites for more info, www.snipercountry.com (etc...)


PS_>wave< I'm in OR too!
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 12:52:40 PM EST
I have both a 700PSS (unfired; shot my friend's) and an LTR, both in .308. Some folks say that the LTR may even outshoot the PSS in terms of accuracy. However, the PSS will have a bit more 'legs' in terms of range due to longer barrel length/higher velocity.

The PSS is heavy bastard. The LTR has a fluted barrel and nice balance.

LTRs love Fed. Gold Medal Match ammo.

My last session with the LTR I used those multitarget targets (the ones for 22s). After zeroing, got several trio groups with my LTR+Fed GMM ammo that can be covered with a dime. Other groups that were wider/ a tad off entirely due to me: gotta button down on my breathing + trigger discipline. (Having a crappy rest didn't help either.) Used a Burris Signature 6-20X scope. (Even the base model Burris Fullfield scopes are nice.)

I have heard of problems with the LTR "DM" (detachable mag) versions: gun shoots fine but mags drop loose, etc. Apparently there's an aftermarket part that'll fix this - so if you found a new 700LTR DM for a screaming deal, get it.

[But if you want that many rounds quickly and accurately, get an AR10.]

Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

Link Posted: 9/9/2002 2:10:55 PM EST
DM model problems were with feeding and with problems inserting the mags in a hurry.(mags binding up in the mag-well) Doesn't happen with every rifle. Intermittent problem. Enough though that remington discountinued them.

HS Precision makes a great aftermarket Detachable mag system for the remmy 700 platform. www.hsprecision.com It's stainless steel, and is a more durable floorplate/triggerguard then what the remmys come with. Although HS's comes with a 4 round mag, 10 round mags are available, which is a nice option for those that care for such things in a bolt action rifle. Word of caution, the HS system is expensive, and so are the mags.


Link Posted: 9/9/2002 2:20:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 2:28:21 PM EST by cnatra]
My dad has a LTR DM that will easily shoot 3/4in groups at 200yrds with 168gr BTHP ammo. (he's 64 & his vision isn't what it used to be:) It's a great rifle, he did have a minor glitch with the DM at first but Remington fixed it quickly & with no hassles.
The LTR probably has not quite as much velocity/energy past 400-600yrds+ (?) compared to a 24"-26" gun.
I guess the slower velocity will translate into a quicker drop ???

Anyway as far as I can tell if your talking about the .308 rifles I think these all utilize 1x12 twist. The 1x9 is for the .223 model.

Link Posted: 9/9/2002 2:47:51 PM EST
FS and bwise,

Yes, I'm looking for a rifle chambered in .308. I'll be looking to shoot 147 GR surplus, and 168 GR Fed Gold Match. I have an AR-10A2C and my best friend / neighboor has an AR-10(T) that we shoot these two rounds from so, the ammo prefrences sound good to me!

The 1-in-9" rifling of the LTR should be better for 168+ gr stuff, while the PSS's 1-in-12" whould be better for the lighter 147 and about as good for the 168 Gr, right?

That's for the accuracy info on the two. I have heard the LTR has about 80 FPS less vel. at the muzzle w/ 168 GR Fed GM. I wonder, does the use of a surpressor increase that velocity any for longer range cap., or is it only the muzzle brake / muzzle weight caracteristics of the can that helps the accuracy?

I want the gun to be as accurate as possible as far out as possible, but, realistically, I'll be punching paper at 100-200 yards WAY more often than I'll shoot out 500-700, much less 1000 yards. I'd love it to be effective to 1k yards though. If I get a good, capable up to 800 yards rifle I'll be happy.

I want something with outstanding 0-400 yards accuracy, good accuracy out to around 800 yards, and anything after that is a plus, but not my main cocern. I also want my rifle to be something I can carry around in the brush/woods in the hills all day long.

The surpessor will add 6.5-8.75" to total lenth, and 14-28 OZ weight IIRC, so If I get eh LTR it'll put total lenth at .5+2.75" more than a standard PSS.

I belive the LTR cost slightly less now as well?

Whichever rifle I get, I am planning on accessorizing with the following:

Harris bi-pod, I forget the model but I have 2 already, 9-13" legs, swivle, the more robust one. Mod LS or something.

IOR 4-14x50 w/mp-8 Illuminated recticle ( http://www.valdada.com/vn/ior/03o ). I'd love the 6-24x50 version, but it DOES NOT come with an illuminated recticule.

Have not decided on rings/mount. I like the IOR Super Heavy Duty piccatanty rings ( http://www.valdada.com/vn/ior/05d ), but am not sure if they are right for the job.

Either a TROS (local, made in Oregon) surpressor, or AWC Nexus surpressor.

I am interested in the detachable mags, but am not sure if I'll got that route. This is the 1st of heard of the probs. With the LTR DM. Does the PSS w/ DM not have this problem? Also, the none detachable mag version, what is the mag capacity? Where do I get extra detachable mags, and for how much? (Oh, just saw your second post FS, I'll look into that more! thanks!!!)

As far as I can tell, I'm looking at:

$<800 for LTR.
$<800 for IOR scope.
$150 for IOR rings (am I going to need a mount??)
$400-800 for surpressor.
$200 NFA bribe.
$<100 for barrel threading.
$75 for Harris Bi-pod
Total $2525-$2925, where as a AWC m40A2 cost $2400+ w/no extras.

I can get all this stuff locally at those prices. I guess I might need to add more $ for the HS mag conversion? Anything else you guys can think of I might want to/need to do/add? Well, a sling I guess:-P.

I'd love a Ar-10(t) all of my own, but I have a AR-10A2 now, and NO bolt actions, also, I REALLY want to surpress it, and evidently the BATF frowns upon surpressed Ar-10's or something :-/. Also, the Rem. 700 setup is more "cost effective" :-).

I've been poking around at sniper-country too:-). Most the Faq's /hot tips/cool shots, whatever seem to be 1999 or older though. . . .

Oh, how hard is it to insert rounds into a non-detachable mag 700 with scope? I know it's a PITA (IMO) with my friends scoped 1903-a3. And how hi do I want the scope???

Anything else I'm missing?

Also, FS, I'm in the Portland/Hillsboro area, what part of OR are you in? Where do you shoot long ranges?

Thanks a lot guys,
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 2:58:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 3:01:21 PM EST by USMC2111]
A word of caution about the Rem 700PSS. It seems Remington's quality control is hit or miss. My PSS required the scope (Leupold 3-10 tactical, mil dot) to be maxed out on windage and elevation just to get on the paper. I thought it was the mount (Leupold), but after further investigation, it turns out the barrel is in no way true to the action. It's low and to the left. Must have been put together on a Monday morning or a Friday afternoon.

Anyone want to buy a Rem. 700PSS?

Edited to say:
I also have the HS Precision detachable mag, it is a quality piece. However the 10rnd mags are around $100.00
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 4:46:48 PM EST
Only question, why the IOR stuff? Do it right the first time and get the Badger/Leupold setup. that way you won't want to "upgrade" in a couple years (trust me, I speak from experience) I figure you can get Badger rings and bases for somwhere around $20 more than the IOR. For a scope get the Loopie LR M3, and that's all you'll ever need. I'd rather give my money to Marty (Badger) and Leupold instead of sending it abroad. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 4:56:33 PM EST
Both the PSS and the LTR are required to shoot a 10-shot group of less than 1 inch at 100 yards before they can leave the factory. The LTRs have a reputation for shooting about half that but don't stabilize the bullet quite as well if you are going to be shooting more than 600 yards. The M40 is required to shoot less than a 3.1 inch 10-shot group at 1000 meters. Quite impressive but at a co$t.
Take any of the above guns, add some good Leupold mounts and one of their side-focus Long-Range scopes, a sling, and a bipod and you're ready to go. My advice, don't go too high on your magnification though if it's a tactical rifle and not just a target rifle. Field of view is more important then seeing the suspect's eye color.
Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 5:29:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 5:30:33 PM EST by Full_Spectrum]

Originally Posted By JTR:
FS and bwise,

Yes, I'm looking for a rifle chambered in .308. I'll be looking to shoot 147 GR surplus, and 168 GR Fed Gold Match.

Be aware that a lot of the 147gr surplus (south african, port, radway green, etc) won't offer the accuracy that commerical 168Gr match ammo will. If your going to shoot this thru your new rifle, make sure it's non-corrosive. I personally wouldn't plan on doing any 'precision' shooting with 147gr bullets past 100 yards unless I had loaded it myself. It's 'reliable' ammo, but putting that bullet in the same place every time is a bit lacking.

That's for the accuracy info on the two. I have heard the LTR has about 80 FPS less vel. at the muzzle w/ 168 GR Fed GM. I wonder, does the use of a surpressor increase that velocity any for longer range cap., or is it only the muzzle brake / muzzle weight caracteristics of the can that helps the accuracy?

A suppressor won't add to velocity because at the end of the barrel as the bullet passes into the can, the gasses are expelled INTO the can, and are no longer behind the bullet driving it down the barrel, thus increasing it's velocity.

I want the gun to be as accurate as possible as far out as possible, but, realistically, I'll be punching paper at 100-200 yards WAY more often than I'll shoot out 500-700, much less 1000 yards. I'd love it to be effective to 1k yards though. If I get a good, capable up to 800 yards rifle I'll be happy.

If your going to mainly be shooting it from 100-500 yards, and you want it light and handy, go with the LTR. ANY of these rifles are going to be heavier then the 'sporting' equivilents that have lighter barrels. That's where the extra weight is going to get you when your humping over hill and thru vally.

Oh, how hard is it to insert rounds into a non-detachable mag 700 with scope? I know it's a PITA (IMO) with my friends scoped 1903-a3. And how hi do I want the scope???

Top loading a bolt action rifle is pretty easy. Actually easier then loading a magazine in my opinion. How high you want the scope depends on the size of your objective lens. 40-42mm objectives usually require medium rings, 50mm obj require high rings.

Also on the DM versions of the LTR and PSS, the problem was with ALL of their DM models. Remington discontinued all of them. Some guys go with a solid floorplate, loading from the top only, some guys go with the BDL (drop) floorplate, some guys like the magazines. In my opinion it's a personal preference.

Also, FS, I'm in the Portland/Hillsboro area, what part of OR are you in? Where do you shoot long ranges?

I'm in the pdx area. Douglas Ridge Rifle Club has a 1000 yard range open Thursdays for practice, and weekends for matches. Tri-County Rifle Club has a 600 yard range that is open Wednesdays and weekends for matched. OR... if you get on I-84, and drive until you get past Mt. Hood, there is about 400 miles of eastern oregon high desert that has long range written all over it.

One more thing. Spend your money wisely the first time, and you won't be upgrading later. If you wanting to shoot 1k with any of the platforms you choose, make sure and look into how much the bullet drops, how much scope adjustment you will need, and whether or not you might need a tapered scope base in order to accomplish a 1000 yard zero.

I'm no 'expert' in this field, but I'll offer any help I can. You can email me off line if you want.

Link Posted: 9/9/2002 8:11:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 8:13:37 PM EST by TargetShooter2]
i have a Pss & a LTR both in 308 cal. that i had up for sale or wanted to trade for a AR10T awhile back but i had no takers so there both setting in a safe . i wanted $1.250.00 for the Pss & $1.850.00 for the LTR if interested you can drop me a line . here is details on both rifles .

Here is the way the LTR is setup , it has logged 149 rounds fired 20 rounds Win Black Talons 180 grn, 129 Sierra 175 match it shoots sub moa.

LTR 308 DM model .

2 mags .

Leupold M1 LR with Luminous Post USMC mildot & ARD by Premier Reticles

Badger Max 50 rings

Leupold M4 1 pc Base

Timney Trigger set @ 2 3/4 lbs.

Harris Bipod BR

M14 sling

shell holders

+ a USS Stock DM model with all lop spacers 2 ck pcs.

Here is the setup on the Pss 308 hindged floor plate

it has logged 87 rounds fired all were Sierra 175 match sub moa

Scope Sightron 4X16X42 mildot w/ Bultercreek flipups one inch tube very clear scope .

Mounts & Rings

Mounting Solutions Plus X Thick two piece Rem 700 short action 4140 steel

Mounting Solution Plus Precision Reflex Rings 4140 steel

Trigger factory set @ 2 1/2 lbs.

Harris Bipod BR

Turner Leather Sling

Shell holders



Link Posted: 9/9/2002 11:11:43 PM EST
TargetShooter: How do you like the Leupold M1 scopes? Are those fixed 10x ?


Link Posted: 9/10/2002 7:04:38 AM EST
Thanks all for the info!


Thanks for the correction on the twist rates. I thought 1 in 9 was kinda odd for a .308.

I guess the two biggest questions now are: How long is to long? And is the m40a2 worth the extra 2k?

I am willing to give up some long range ability to go surpressed. So, if a pss or m40 isn't going to go well with the extra lenth, I'll go with the LTR. The m40 seems to have higher standards, but I can't find many people w/experiance that shows it's actually much better.


Thanks for the offers, unfortunatly, I am not going to be buying the rifle untill December. I will be buying the surpressor hopefully this month. I'll check back with you to see if they are still up for sale when the time comes to buy. I didn't see any mention of it, but what size groups are you getting with them?

As for ammo, I know the surplus isn't NEARLY as accurate as the commercial match ammo. . . . I have been shooting both through Ar-10's. I will be using the 147 GR for plinging at pop-cans and the like, as well as using slightly heaver tracer rounds at night at ranges of 100-400 yards. It doesn't need to be as accurate, just accurate enough to take care of the packs of whild dogs and coyoties (sp?) that harrass our animals and the neighbors livestock. My Vepr in .223 gets the job done for now, so I imagine this'll do fine w/ surpluss ammo.

For target shooting it'll be using the Fed Gold Match hopefully. Also, I insist ALL of my gun's be able to reliably shoot surplus ammo incase the need arises. Oh, and the S.A. surplus I've been using mostly is non-corrosive:-).


Have you used the IOR stuff in the past? If so, what didn't you like about it. I've been checking out both IOR and Lupolds stuff for a while, and have found the IOR stuff more to my liking. I don't like buying much forign stuff, but do from time to time if it's quality stuff.

I checked out the HSP site. . . I'd love to get the mag fed, but OUCH! I payed $70 each for my NIW AR-10 20rnd pre-ban mags. NO WAY am I gonna fork up $110 each for 10 round mags, and $65 for 4 rnders!!!! Well, I think I will go with top-fed, and I can allways add the HSP DM later. -You can still top-load the DM models to, can't you? -How much are Rem. factory mags?

I don't have a problem loading loading from the top, mag fed could be nice though. As I stated, my friends 03-a3 w/scope is a PITA to load:-(, I guess the Remmy isn't that way.


Thanks for the info on the ranges. Do you by any chance have ph#'s or web sites for any of them? Also, as far as the 100 yard zero, do you think that's relistic on a LTR? -Or only the PSS and m40? Do you have any idea how much slower the rounds form an LTR will be at that range? I've heard muzzle reports, but not long range reports.

I didn't *think* the supressor would add velocity, but figured I should ask:-) Thanks.

Oh, USMC2111, did Remington do anything to fix your PSS? Or did they just leave you hanging?

I also forgot I'll have to add some $ for the sling, sunshades, lenscovers, and cammo job, however those cost will be equal regardless of the rifle I choose.

Thanks again all,
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 9:20:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2002 9:23:30 AM EST by USMC8541]
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 9:40:36 AM EST
JTR when you are ready to purchase a setup drop me a line , i dont have the rifles up for sale
right now and since i didnt get a AR10T trade i just put them up to sell or trade at a later time , nothing has caught my eye that i really want. here is a pic of both scopes,rifles zeroed @ 100 yds 5 shoots shooting off the bipods .

the leupold M1 LR is a 3.5x10x40

Link Posted: 9/10/2002 1:01:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Full_Spectrum:

How high you want the scope depends on the size of your objective lens. 40-42mm objectives usually require medium rings, 50mm obj require high rings.


I was asking my dad again about his LTR & he said he used low/standard QR Leupold rings with a 4.5x14x40mm Leupold tactical scope. He thought he would need medium height rings but the barrel fluting Remington uses on the LTR acturally provides a little more clearance for the objective bell.
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 1:53:09 PM EST
if it were my money, id go with the LTR. ive had one of those, a remmy VS (PSS with a different stock) and i just liked the way the ltr handled WAY better. much better balance and generally handier.

unless you are planning on 1000 yrd matches, go with the LTR
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 2:33:35 PM EST
USMC is right, Rem has been having QC problems, and to add insult to injury, CS problems on warranty work.
Among my sniper-type rifles I have a PSS and an LTR, along with a custom built M40A1 clone, all in .308.
If you've decieded on one of the factory Remington's all you really have to do now is figure out if you'll be doing more shooting from the bench or prone from a rest (PSS) or will you be carrying alot (LTR). It makes one hell of a difference.
No matter what you choose the earlier posters are right. Go with a Loopy scope of your choice. Just remember that you may need a 20MOA tapered base to get out past 600yds depending on the scope. Badger rings and bases are among the best,you won't go wrong with them. DD Ross Co, MSP (ex MWG), Smith Ent, and GG&G (among others) are all good.
You mentioned the M40A2. This designation is not an official USMC sniper rifle model #, as M40A1 and M40A3 truly are. Several Co's have made what they call a M40A2 rifle, but there no real standards, so when you mention this model you're comparing apples to oranges. You could do a search for the MC models and at least know what the basic package is.
All in all, you've got two ways to spend your money. First learn what you really want and need. Then buy a factory rifle, shoot it, and have the custom work done as you can. Or you can spec out anything you want from any number of custom gunmakers (be SURE to check references) all you have to do then is wait between two months and two years (or longer), oh,yeah - and be able to pay for it!
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 2:59:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2002 3:09:26 PM EST by dmuldrew]
Justin, If you are going to spend $2500 on a bolt gun, you should check out George Gardners work at GA Precision in Kansas City. He builds a great rifle, I own one. Mine will shoot a 10 round group at 100 meters that you can cover with a dime. He gets a lot of good press on the sniper boards, and if you get your hands on one you will understand why. TBA makes a great rifle of the M40A2 type, but his wait is greater than one year, last I heard. Same with the Chandlers at IBA, but theirs is twice as much as a rifle from GA Precision. My stick, More pics at community.webshots.com/user/dennismuldrew
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 5:34:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2002 5:35:30 AM EST by Trumpet]
I've got nothing against the IOR's. They seem to be of high quality. Mike Miller (the guy who makes the Tactical Intervention slings and the same guy that gave George Gardner the specs to make the "Rock" rifle on) did a test of them on snipercountry.com and found the mil-spacing to be off and the adjustments weren't always dead on. My biggest concern is that if you have some sort of a problem or issue with it, what's the customer satisfaction/warranty policy like? (seriously, I don't know). Leupold's customer service is outstanding and the quality of their scopes is proven. If you decide to ever sell it, (hopefully that will never happen)you'd have a much easier time selling a Loopie. Learn from my mistakes, buy a Loopie the first time. Once again also, I feel just a little better knowing the money I earned here stays here. Sorry if my first post came on as a flame, I didn't intend it that way. I just feel that you'd be better served with a Leupold, yeah it's a little more dough, but it's a great scope.
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 7:16:32 AM EST

Thanks for the update. I guess medium hight rings on a standard or tapered base should allow me to clear a 50mm objective then, right? -I'll have to see how much higher the med. are. . I need 5mm more clearance. . . . Unless I go Pss, then I'd need the high rings I guess. -I'll have to get hight specs to be sure.


I think I agree. I'm REALLY leaning towards the LTR now. I'd just hate to sell myself short on range. . . Realistically, 95%+ of my shooting is gonna be 0-400 yards. . . . I just want the capability. I'd hate be be out shot by the Ar-10(t):-).

I'm gonna have to run back to my local fun shop
to check out the LTR and PSS again. . . .


The recent Rem. QC issue reports have me sorta concerned. . . Is this something that happens frequently now? -What are the chances I'm gonna get a dud if I buy new? As far as me saying "m40a2" I referenced the a2 because that's what AWC calls thiers. There are 3 good m40 builders from what I can tell, I forgot the name of the other two, but one had over 2 year wait, one 18+months, and AWC had slightly higher prices, same quality, and only 2 month wait.

As far as the base is concerned, with a 20 MOA scoep base, will I have trouble shooting at 100 or so? I assume the scope would need 40 MOA adjustment so I could zero at 100 with a to MOA base?


That's a sweet looking rifle, and even sweeter groups! What was the cost on the rifle alone? as Far as I can tell, I'm looking at $2500+ for a custom rifle or m40 +accessories, or $700+ for a LTR or PSS, then adding the extra's up to $2500 total.


Thanks for the info. The IOR scopes have a lifetime warrenty. I don't know about Cust. Service, but the place I would be buying it from has great service and handles all the warrenty issues for the customer. I'll checkout Leupolds stuff some more, I just don't seem to like them. I like the IOR and USO stuff. Heck, Leupold's just a few miles away from me too.


That's a nice looking rifle. Can you tell me about it? I.E. group size, what's been done to it, etc?

Thanks again all,

P.S. I love all the great info and advice available here!!!
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 10:05:30 AM EST

nice rifle, terrific groups...but I like Lola the best....what kind of dog is she???
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 12:04:24 PM EST
Justin, the price for the ROCK is $2500. For that you get rifle, base, rings. You will have to add scope, sling, and bipod if you wish. I figured I was way ahead of the game by having someone who knew what they were doing put the rifle togather, instead of my trying to piece things togather. I opted for a clip slotted receiver and the base that goes with it, that was a little extra. I started out with a Leupold, which I had got in a trade, but when i had the cash I sprung for the US Optics ST-10. It's a really great piece of glass, and believe it or not the base price is LESS than you can get a new Mk4 Leupold for.

btdrygulch, Lola is a Gordon Setter, Her parents are both very successful show dogs, in fact her father was the #1 Gordon in the US at one time. They are upland gun dogs, originally from Scotland. Lola, at her young age is the smartest dog I have ever come across. Every day she surprises me. A great pup and a great addition to our family.
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 12:50:33 PM EST
Check out the reviews of the Loopie M1 and M3 LR's on snipercountry.com.

As far as the QC problems go. Unfortunately ALL the companies are having 'em right now. I think what sets Remmy apart is the crappy way in which they handle it. They subcontract out to little "mom and pops" shops to do much of their repair work, and some of 'em really have no business touching a gun (if you know what I mean). It's pretty well known now that if you have to send a gun back to big green, make sure you specify that it goes back to the main production facility to have a real 'smith look at it.
If you're concerned about the LTR at 1000k there's a thread on snipershide.com about a guy whose LTR does just that quite well. The key to loooong range stuff isn't necessarily the length of the barrel, but the quality of the barrel (sounds kinda familiar huh? :0). The "Rock" barrel is only 22" but will track with the Leupold M3 exactly out to 1000yds. But it uses a premium (read smooooth) barrel, whereas Remmy pays $35 for their crappy factory tubes which INHO need lapping (including the PSS). Don't get me wrong, I love my PSS and it'll keep 5 shots in .5" at 200yds all day (if I do my part, no easy task)with Black Hills 175's. But, when I got it I sent it out to Hart's and had them do their accuracy package on it (lap lugs, bolt, lap barrel, touch up crown, skim bed action, tune trigger to crisp 2.5 lbs.)for $175(definitely worth it). I would go the PSS or the Winchester Stealth (If I could do it over I'd go Winnie all the way....One of the "hawgs" on snipercountry has four of 'em and he's a former 8541, spook etc.). That way, if you decide you want a shorter barrel, have a 'smith cut the sucka'. I'd buy the "factory" gun get good glass (NOT the place to be cheap) and spend the rest of your money on ammo, and shoot the snot out of it. When the factory barrel's all shot out, have George Gardner do his magic on it and you'll have a tackdriver that you'll really be able to appreciate. That's what I'm doing. No sense burning out a custom tube during the "learning curve".
Hoe this helps,

BTW, I highly recommend (as if you couldn't tell already ;)) you check out snipercountry.com. those guys are a HUGE wealth of info on this stuff (much like AR's and AR15.com)and have helped many (including me) get started in the "tactical" rifle thang.
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 12:54:50 PM EST
Oh and one more thing.
Don't overlook the Rem 700VS. The only difference between the VS and the PSS (at least in .308) is the stock and the "blacked out" bolt on the PSS. Those are the ONLY differences. Same action, same trigger, same barrel etc. In fact many actually prefer the VS over the PSS as the stock etc, is closer to the M40A1 than the PSS. The VS stock is easier to shoot from "positions" other than the prone. Just think if you get the VS you can spend that extra $150 on ammo or optics. Just something to think about.

Link Posted: 9/11/2002 7:15:28 PM EST
I took the P over the VS b/c the VS is now coming with a damn triggerlock, the P is not. That alone was enough for me to refuse to buy the VS. Considered the LTR, but the P isn't too heavy for me to carry, I prefered the P stock, I figured there would be a big flash from the LTR 20" bbl, and I can always have the the P bbl cut back to 22 inches in the future if I want to, I am considering a sound suppressor, so the 22" bbl would help overall length. Don't know if I want to give up the velocity. I'll decide in the future. Buying the P now gives me the flexibility in the future.
Link Posted: 9/11/2002 9:42:07 PM EST
Remmy QC and CR - chances are you'll get a good one. If you don't, that's when the grief comes in. Handling that is a whole other thread.

If you have a cooperative gunshop, see if they'll let you have a good 'smith look it over before you're locked into it. Check muzzle crown inspect the bore WITH BORESCOPE, see if chamber and bore are concentric, check trigger and saftey operation just for starters.

The Loopy LR M3 will fore sure need a tapered base. On any scope, look up the specs for how many total minutes of elevation it's got and divide by two. Figure the bullet drop for the longest distance that you're gonna shoot. If you need 40MOA to get to 1Kyds. and your scope will only let you have 30MOA after a 100yd zero, you'll need a tapered base. The only scopes that you'll have to worry about not zeroing at 100yds with a 20MOA tapered base would be the Loopy MK4 series, and they don't need a tapered base to reach 1K yds anyway. My advice - Loopy LR M3 w/gen2 Mil-Dot from Premier Reticle (Springfield VA) and you can get the Badger rings and tapered base there too.

Terry Cross @KMW, George Gardner, and Jerry Rice @NorCal Precision are three 'smiths that I'd buy from anytime. My M40A1 is from Terry Cross, a Tactical Match competitor who shoots what he builds, and wins! Remember that with some of these 'quick' delivery rifles that you may be limited as to exactly what you can spec out. I was able to specify everything on my rifle, and got it in less than a year. And it shoots - .465" 5-shot @100yds and it's barely broken in.

A word of advice - I shot a Stealth, a PSS and an LTR for a few years before I ordered my custom stick, so I could be sure of what I wanted before spending the big bucks! HTH
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 1:32:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 1:33:48 PM EST by egaletti]
Here's some pics of my Rem 700 PSS LTR 20" fluted barrel in .308 win. Mounted on top is badger one piece base/rings and Leupold 4.5x14x50mm tactical with duplex reticle. Trigger adjustment and scope base/ring mounting was done by Nor-cal precision in Vallejo, Ca. (www.norcalprecision.com) Jerry does a sweet job and is virtual encylopedia of information

I took these pics a week or so ago after a trip to the range.

Here's my setup:

It has shot groups like this out of the box from day one, even while breaking in the barrel.


Link Posted: 9/12/2002 2:09:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2002 2:10:52 PM EST by shadows]
Here is my LTR with Leupold VariX-III 4x14.5x50mm

Twas my first bolt gun and have been quite pleased with it's accuracy. I would recommend a smaller scope bell like 40mm. It rides a bit high and I think the 40mm would allow for a better cheak weld. The furthest I have gone with it is 200yrds. Very satisfying to shoot. Here is a 100yrd target from a speed drill using surplus 147gr ammo.
edited to supply link to larger target image...www.shadows.com/dave/image/042201_100yd_b.gif
Link Posted: 9/12/2002 4:37:54 PM EST

Jeez, you would think the LTR is the best thing since...mmm....Can I place another vote for the LTR? wait... I already voted once...


Link Posted: 9/13/2002 7:08:46 AM EST
Thanks everyone.

I have decided to go with the LTR. I tried the PSS, VS, and LTR out at the shop yesterday, and since I'm addng 8" and 24 oz. to the nose of it, the PSS and VS were going to be WAY to nose heavy to use all day! Plus, I read that SWAT article http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/ and t looks like going from 26" to 20" I'll lose no velocity shooting the ammo I intend to shoot (fed. gold medal).

I Don't want to make the jump from a $700 rifle to a custom m40 style $2500 rifle right now, given the 700 will shoot better than I can. Maybe in a few years. . . .

egaletti, when I go to your links, all I get is this: "Not authorized to view this image from this page."

I'm still not sure about the scope. I just can't bring myself to like a Leupold. Maybe it's 'casue I'm in Hillsboro/Portland and despise Beaverton and everything from/in it:-P. (that's where Leupold & Stevens is).

Thanks all,

P.S. Further input is welcome!
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 8:29:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By JTR:
Thanks everyone.
I have decided to go with the LTR.


Enjoy your new rifle!
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 7:44:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2002 3:52:04 PM EST by VCBP48]
Hey All,
Just got my LTR from Tony at Town Police Supply in Va. Great price, shipped very fast (ordered Tuesday got to my FFL on Thurs. evening) and great people to deal with. Thought I was going to pay $679 for it when I called Tony advised me that the LTRs were $655 + 10 for S/H. BONUS.....now I can buy more ammo. (even 679 is a good price), anyone seen better??? Their number is (800)752-5580.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 10:44:18 AM EST
Tony's the best!! I got my .223 PSS from him last yar for $629. Hell of a guy to do bidnit with.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 5:35:58 PM EST
Tony is top notch.

JTR- Leave me an email address to contact you offline about shooting in OR.

Link Posted: 9/23/2002 10:19:35 AM EST
Hello everybody!


Nice setup! What rings/mounts are you using? How much of a pain is a good cheek weld for you? I REALLY want to go with a certain scope that has a 50mm obj. . . . But, I'm not 100% sure yet.

VCBP48 and Trumpet,

Thanks for the info RE: Tony for LTR. The guy who will be threading the LTR for the surpressor, and also who is the surpressor manufacturer, said he could get me one for $725. So, I gotta decide if it's worth the extra $ to order from Tony or not. . . . It'b be kinda nice to just have the guy here get it. . . less logistics to worry about:-). Tony's price is the best if seen or heard by far! -It's still POSSIBEL I'll get a used one from someone here. . haven't decided yet.


jrocha(AT simbol)andersen-const.com -I'd love to find out more about those ranges!

Thanks all,

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