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Posted: 1/31/2011 11:48:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 12:38:01 PM EDT by MP15T]
One of my fathers good friends son is a sales guy for Remington.  He has a few connections the firearm industry and recently bought a lot of 500rds of Raufoss 50bmg rounds from a gentleman.  I would like to buy some off of him and was wandering how do I know it is real.  I am about 95% positive that they are because my dad has known the gentleman and his son for almost his hole life and they would not lie to us.  





I have never seen this ammo in real life and have no clue on what to look for.  





Is there anything in particular that I should look for?  Headstamps?  Markings? Color tips?





Any help would be great.





Thanks for the help.
 
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:45:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 12:47:55 PM EDT by nmmi9100]
It's most often fake.  Only real way to tell is x-ray it.

Raufoss is green tip with a white ring.  But lots of folks are painting tips of API and Ball ammo since this stuff has gotten up to $30 to $50/round.

This stuff is gray market at best.

-David
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:48:52 PM EDT
Thats what I figured.  I have no clue on where I could get one X-rayed.  



I am going to talk to him to see who he bought if from and ask him about the authenticity of it.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 2:43:41 PM EDT
send me one I'll test it for ya.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:56:48 PM EDT
Offer up your 50 to shoot a round of it and film it.  He can use the video then for whoever he sells to and you as verification its real.  And if it doesn't explode well then you're not out anything.  Make sure you pick out the round though.  500 of them in one lot seems to me... sketchy.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 7:04:01 PM EDT
send me one and I'll x-ray it, hell I'll even do a CT
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 7:22:10 PM EDT
I just checked on the gunbroker seller Follow Me. Going through completed auctions he has SOLD over 40 Lots at $1200-$1300 each in the past few months.

This is a big money racket.

Link Posted: 1/31/2011 7:49:11 PM EDT
There is info about headstamps and tip paint in Boston's Gun Bible... No matter your view on his politics and opinions, some good info in there.

Only verified Raufoss I've seen recently has been very expensive and in small quantities.

If the gent in question has an actual source for LEGALLY obtained Raufoss, he's sitting on a mint.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 5:52:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 5:54:06 AM EDT by nmmi9100]
Originally Posted By robpiat:
I just checked on the gunbroker seller Follow Me. Going through completed auctions he has SOLD over 40 Lots at $1200-$1300 each in the past few months.

This is a big money racket.


I'm not sure if this guy is the chameleon that keeps changing gunbroker names and selling painted API.  There has been quite a bit of talk about him on the Hide and other boards.

Maybe it's real.  And maybe he got some Mk 211 ammo cans and some paint.  Just gotta decide if it's worth the risk.  The risk of it being fake.  The risk of it being stolen gov't property.  Etc.

Shooting them, you can't tell the difference between API and Mk 211 unless you shoot known API and this stuff at the same plate and see which makes the bigger/deeper hole.

-David

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 6:04:33 AM EDT
Update.



I spoke to the guy who is selling it last night.  he bought it from a military contractor who gets an allotment every year and sells what he does not use.



I might go out this weekend with him and shoot a rd and see what it does (weather permitting).  



I also got an IM from a guy in TX who said he can do an x-ray/CAT scan of one if I send him a round.  I will update this when I find out more.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:04:52 AM EDT
When a Raufoss round impacts on a hard target, the incendiary splash is pretty significant. Much more so than an AP round.
It takes impact on a hard target though.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:42:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 50cal:
When a Raufoss round impacts on a hard target, the incendiary splash is pretty significant. Much more so than an AP round.
It takes impact on a hard target though.


Willing to bet if you go to Knob Creek in April you'll see the difference first hand if you keep your eyes peeled.

There is a much bigger boom when compared to standard AP.
Not enough to make the rounds worth my cash, but enough that it would be a fun toy if you had a nice hard backstop to ignite em.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 9:03:55 AM EDT



Originally Posted By OiRogers:



Originally Posted By 50cal:

When a Raufoss round impacts on a hard target, the incendiary splash is pretty significant. Much more so than an AP round.

It takes impact on a hard target though.




Willing to bet if you go to Knob Creek in April you'll see the difference first hand if you keep your eyes peeled.



There is a much bigger boom when compared to standard AP.

Not enough to make the rounds worth my cash, but enough that it would be a fun toy if you had a nice hard backstop to ignite em.


The price is pretty good and I will only buy about 30-40rds.  It will probably just sit in an ammo can and I will never shoot it.  







 
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 9:32:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MP15T:

Originally Posted By OiRogers:
Originally Posted By 50cal:
When a Raufoss round impacts on a hard target, the incendiary splash is pretty significant. Much more so than an AP round.
It takes impact on a hard target though.


Willing to bet if you go to Knob Creek in April you'll see the difference first hand if you keep your eyes peeled.

There is a much bigger boom when compared to standard AP.
Not enough to make the rounds worth my cash, but enough that it would be a fun toy if you had a nice hard backstop to ignite em.

The price is pretty good and I will only buy about 30-40rds.  It will probably just sit in an ammo can and I will never shoot it.  


 


Then why buy it?  Safe queen ammo?  

Buy 60-80 and shoot half... then save half.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 9:54:03 AM EDT



Originally Posted By OiRogers:



Originally Posted By MP15T:




Originally Posted By OiRogers:


Originally Posted By 50cal:

When a Raufoss round impacts on a hard target, the incendiary splash is pretty significant. Much more so than an AP round.

It takes impact on a hard target though.




Willing to bet if you go to Knob Creek in April you'll see the difference first hand if you keep your eyes peeled.



There is a much bigger boom when compared to standard AP.

Not enough to make the rounds worth my cash, but enough that it would be a fun toy if you had a nice hard backstop to ignite em.


The price is pretty good and I will only buy about 30-40rds.  It will probably just sit in an ammo can and I will never shoot it.  





 




Then why buy it?  Safe queen ammo?  



Buy 60-80 and shoot half... then save half.


80 rds will put a hurting to my wallet.  I will make my decision as soon as I verify that it is real.  Hopefully that will be in the next week or two.  



 
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 2:14:56 PM EDT
Stopped by after work and picked a round up.  



Arfcom member cockroach has volunteered his services and said that he is willing to x-ray them for me.  Hopefully he can get an electronic copy of the scans and I will post them up.



Surplus Ball, Surplus AP, API, Raufoss MK211








Link Posted: 2/2/2011 12:54:32 PM EDT
The paint apperas correct for the rounds I have. Headstamp also.
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 4:48:49 PM EDT
The ones I bought via RMFCSA are headstamped LC 03
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 7:43:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MP15T:
Stopped by after work and picked a round up.  

Arfcom member cockroach has volunteered his services and said that he is willing to x-ray them for me.  Hopefully he can get an electronic copy of the scans and I will post them up.

Surplus Ball, Surplus AP, API, Raufoss MK211

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m55/jweber_1/Barrett%20M99/DSC00641.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m55/jweber_1/Barrett%20M99/DSC00644.jpg


can you get closer on the tip of the round, It should be "fatter" than normal
Link Posted: 2/3/2011 2:40:25 PM EDT
what is "normal" ?  Ball?
I have a variety (AP, API, Incend., M33 Ball) & would also like to compare mine.
Link Posted: 2/3/2011 3:21:03 PM EDT
So how much are you going to sell'em for if there real? I would like one for my ammo collection.
Link Posted: 2/4/2011 3:30:42 PM EDT
The Raufos rounds have a more rounded tip than a API

Originally Posted By ARsR4ME:
So how much are you going to sell'em for if there real? I would like one for my ammo collection.


Link Posted: 2/4/2011 7:10:43 PM EDT
Looks legit to me.

Once you've shot the real stuff, you'll know what to look for downrange.  Put some up against a hard target, and the effects are quite impressive.  Had the chance to burn a mag or two of them a few months ago; they were being handed out like candy.  API is fun, but Mk211 is downright shock and awe territory.
Link Posted: 2/4/2011 7:46:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
Looks legit to me.

Once you've shot the real stuff, you'll know what to look for downrange.  Put some up against a hard target, and the effects are quite impressive.  Had the chance to burn a mag or two of them a few months ago; they were being handed out like candy.  API is fun, but Mk211 is downright shock and awe territory.


Why didn't you get a bunch to bring home????????
Link Posted: 2/5/2011 10:00:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevenater:
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
Looks legit to me.

Once you've shot the real stuff, you'll know what to look for downrange.  Put some up against a hard target, and the effects are quite impressive.  Had the chance to burn a mag or two of them a few months ago; they were being handed out like candy.  API is fun, but Mk211 is downright shock and awe territory.


Why didn't you get a bunch to bring home????????


Seriously, buy all of it, and you will have no problem reselling it.  Hell, you could sell it on the EE in 25 minutes or less guaranteed.
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 5:45:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2011 5:47:03 PM EDT by KeithPagel]
If you look closely at the bullet, just above the case mouth, you'll see two vertical (parallel to the long axis of the bullet) slice marks in the bullet (in the bullet cannelure and across), at 180 degree apart, casued when Talon demilled the original ammo the bullet came from.  If you pull the bullet, you'll se the demil slice marks much more prevalent.  

WCC 08 is the brass commercially available from Winchester right now for reloading.  

The tip colors aren't correct and you can see brush marks in the paint.

Bullet weight was ~650 grains, vs the typical 665-672 grain weight of normal Mk211.  


(Based on examination of samples of the same rounds sent to me)


I don't know what the original projectile was, so an Xray exam would be interesting.

Keith Pagel
FCSA / VHP Magazine
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 6:16:27 PM EDT
The rounds have been shipped.



Scheduled delivery is this Tuesday.
Link Posted: 2/6/2011 6:22:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KeithPagel:
If you look closely at the bullet, just above the case mouth, you'll see two vertical (parallel to the long axis of the bullet) slice marks in the bullet (in the bullet cannelure and across), at 180 degree apart, casued when Talon demilled the original ammo the bullet came from.  If you pull the bullet, you'll se the demil slice marks much more prevalent.  

WCC 08 is the brass commercially available from Winchester right now for reloading.  

The tip colors aren't correct and you can see brush marks in the paint.

Bullet weight was ~650 grains, vs the typical 665-672 grain weight of normal Mk211.  


(Based on examination of samples of the same rounds sent to me)


I don't know what the original projectile was, so an Xray exam would be interesting.

Keith Pagel
FCSA / VHP Magazine


You got this from those pics?

Or are you talking about soemthing else
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 5:20:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By KeithPagel:
If you look closely at the bullet, just above the case mouth, you'll see two vertical (parallel to the long axis of the bullet) slice marks in the bullet (in the bullet cannelure and across), at 180 degree apart, casued when Talon demilled the original ammo the bullet came from.  If you pull the bullet, you'll se the demil slice marks much more prevalent.  

WCC 08 is the brass commercially available from Winchester right now for reloading.  

The tip colors aren't correct and you can see brush marks in the paint.

Bullet weight was ~650 grains, vs the typical 665-672 grain weight of normal Mk211.  


(Based on examination of samples of the same rounds sent to me)


I don't know what the original projectile was, so an Xray exam would be interesting.

Keith Pagel
FCSA / VHP Magazine


You got this from those pics?

Or are you talking about soemthing else



Re-read his post.
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 5:50:59 AM EDT
Dont let me hijack this thread but it seems the right place to post this question.  Are Reufuss rounds legal in non Kalifornia states? I'm just getting into 50's and this round looks really fun. Also looks like its hard to find a real one, or at least tell the difference.  People are obviously miss representing them online? Any reputable sources? Is there a big diff. from API rounds. API's are legal right?  Thank you all for helping to educate us Newbies.

Link Posted: 2/7/2011 5:59:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rasusrevka:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By KeithPagel:
I

(Based on examination of samples of the same rounds sent to me)


Keith Pagel
FCSA / VHP Magazine


You got this from those pics?

Or are you talking about soemthing else



Re-read his post.


Okay, did the rounds come from the same place as the ones in the pic?
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 7:10:49 AM EDT
If ya'll don't know Kieth Pagel, just an FYI, LISTEN to him.  He probably knows more about 50BMG ammo than ANYONE in the world, bar none.

He's is the FCSA ammo guru and he knows his stuff.

-David
Edgewood, NM
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 3:39:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2011 3:40:05 PM EDT by TaylorWSO]
Originally Posted By nmmi9100:
If ya'll don't know Kieth Pagel, just an FYI, LISTEN to him.  He probably knows more about 50BMG ammo than ANYONE in the world, bar none.

He's is the FCSA ammo guru and he knows his stuff.

-David
Edgewood, NM


I just want to know if the rounds he is talking about are the same ones as pictured.

IE are his samples form the same source as the pictures/OPs
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 5:14:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Doc_Shaver:
Dont let me hijack this thread but it seems the right place to post this question.  Are Reufuss rounds legal in non Kalifornia states? I'm just getting into 50's and this round looks really fun. Also looks like its hard to find a real one, or at least tell the difference.  People are obviously miss representing them online? Any reputable sources? Is there a big diff. from API rounds. API's are legal right?  Thank you all for helping to educate us Newbies.



There are no federal restrictions on either API or Raufoss. State laws vary and in Kentucky it's all good.

Link Posted: 2/7/2011 7:21:06 PM EDT
I don't know the source of the rounds pictured, but from the headstamp and the tip colors in the photo, which are unique to these particular rounds, I suspect they are from the same source.  My intent was to give the current holder of those rounds places to check and compare.
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 8:43:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rasusrevka:
Originally Posted By Kevenater:
Originally Posted By WesJanson:
Looks legit to me.

Once you've shot the real stuff, you'll know what to look for downrange.  Put some up against a hard target, and the effects are quite impressive.  Had the chance to burn a mag or two of them a few months ago; they were being handed out like candy.  API is fun, but Mk211 is downright shock and awe territory.


Why didn't you get a bunch to bring home????????


Seriously, buy all of it, and you will have no problem reselling it.  Hell, you could sell it on the EE in 25 minutes or less guaranteed.


It wasn't an option under the circumstances, nor was the ammo technically in private hands.
Link Posted: 2/7/2011 8:45:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2011 8:45:47 PM EDT by WesJanson]
Originally Posted By KeithPagel:
If you look closely at the bullet, just above the case mouth, you'll see two vertical (parallel to the long axis of the bullet) slice marks in the bullet (in the bullet cannelure and across), at 180 degree apart, casued when Talon demilled the original ammo the bullet came from.  If you pull the bullet, you'll se the demil slice marks much more prevalent.  

WCC 08 is the brass commercially available from Winchester right now for reloading.  

The tip colors aren't correct and you can see brush marks in the paint.

Bullet weight was ~650 grains, vs the typical 665-672 grain weight of normal Mk211.  


(Based on examination of samples of the same rounds sent to me)


I don't know what the original projectile was, so an Xray exam would be interesting.

Keith Pagel
FCSA / VHP Magazine


And in closer examination of the photo, I'm noticing that the primer sealant is red.  On the Mk211 I've shot, they were all green sealant...not sure if that's significant or just signifies a different brass source/manufacturer for a particular ammo contract.  Nor is there any annealing marks on the neck.
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 4:20:22 AM EDT
I have an XRay on a CD on this computer of  a fake one from GunBroker.
It looks like AP

If someone will tell me how to post it here, that would be great.

CP
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 4:39:13 AM EDT



Originally Posted By cpermd:


I have an XRay on a CD on this computer of  a fake one from GunBroker.

It looks like AP



If someone will tell me how to post it here, that would be great.



CP


Can you save the file as a .jpg?  Then you can just load it to Photobucket.



It would be good to have a comparison.  My ammo is supposed to arrive today.  I don't know how long it will take him to get it scanned, but I will try to figure out how to post the scans when they are sent to me.  





 
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 6:40:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2011 6:59:54 AM EDT by cpermd]
If somebody will send me an email addy I will send the pic to them.





Crap  I am ignorant as a squirrel when it comes to puters.

WooHoo  Got it

Still looks like AP to me.
This came in one of those $1200 cans from GB.

CP

Link Posted: 2/8/2011 6:51:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2011 6:51:57 AM EDT by MP15T]
Edit:  Is this AP?




 
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 8:05:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MP15T:
Edit:  Is this AP?

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g169/cpermd/RAUFOSS.jpg



 


Looks like AP. IIRC the only difference between ball and AP is the steel core is harder in AP.
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 11:45:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2011 11:47:30 AM EDT by nmmi9100]
SWEET X-RAY!

That's either AP or BALL.  It's not API...not enough space in the front area for the "I" stuff.

-David
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 12:17:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2011 12:18:29 PM EDT by cpermd]
Originally Posted By nmmi9100:
SWEET X-RAY!

That's either AP or BALL.  It's not API...not enough space in the front area for the "I" stuff.

-David


Thanks

Courtesy of Dustan, my XR tech here in the clinic. The amp was turned to 11!

The owner got the ammo can last week.

We did the XR yest AM.

Owner is some pissed

CP
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 4:42:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 5:29:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARsR4ME:
It's not an X-ray but found a color diagram of what it should be.
http://www.gunslot.com/pictures/nowegian-made-raufoss-explosive-incendiary-penetrating-anti-materiel-round


I would love to have a real one to XR and compare.

CP
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 6:02:49 PM EDT
A real Raufoss round and API










Link Posted: 2/8/2011 6:57:13 PM EDT
Cool - that's a great photo, thanks for sharing it.
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 7:20:40 PM EDT


Knowing little to nothing about the Raufoss but comparing your pic vs the OP's,  I think the OP's round is a fake.  Yours is shaped a fair bit different.  I guess the xray will tell the tale.
Link Posted: 2/8/2011 7:39:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MP15T:
Edit:  Is this AP?

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g169/cpermd/RAUFOSS.jpg



 


The perpetrator in the MK211 is a lot smaller, and the steel cup front is flat
Link Posted: 2/9/2011 4:04:38 AM EDT



Originally Posted By chargerkid5:







Knowing little to nothing about the Raufoss but comparing your pic vs the OP's,  I think the OP's round is a fake.  Yours is shaped a fair bit different.  I guess the xray will tell the tale.


From what I remember, the round looked to be identical to the API in terms of shape.  Its not looking good right now.



I hate UPS.  The UPS tracking system gave me "Adverse Weather Conditions", so the ammo didn't arrive yesterday.  Hopefully they can deliver it today.



Is San Antonio getting bad weather right now?





 
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