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Posted: 7/7/2008 1:55:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2008 2:35:40 PM EDT by Magoo6541]
Double Rant on!!!

The deputy story:

If you couldn't guess by my avatar I'm a firefighter. Today a depty came to the station to get some air for one of his tires.

I recently moved from an unincorporated part of the county into town limits. So I now have the ability to have the local PD Chief sign on a Form 4. I'd rather do this because the Sheriffs station is 1 hrs away vs. the PD which is 5 minutes away. I've always had the Sheriff sign off on my Form 4s in the past and I've had no encounters with the PD Chief.

I bought a silencer a couple of weeks ago and it just arrived at my SOT so I figured I'd ask this deputy about the Chief and his policy on this.

Me: Do you guys work with the PD much?
Deputy: Yeah, but only if they need us for anything. Why?
Me: Well, I need to get a signature from the either the Chief or the Sheriff but since the Chief is only 5 min away I'd rather go to him.
Deputy: What do you need signed?
Me: A BATFE Form 4 for a silencer.
Deputy: Silencers are illegal.
Me: Nope. I already own a silencer and a machine gun. Their completely legal.
Deputy: What! Those are definately illegal.
Me: No, their completely legal.
Deputy: How did you determine that?
Me: A bunch of paperwork that went through the Sheriff and the BATFE. To prove it do you want to see my paperwork?
Deputy: Sure.

So I show him the approved Form 4s

Deputy: This is nuts. Now I got to worry about people running around with silencers and machine guns!
Me: . Ok... That's nice. Have a good day then.
Deputy: What in the hell do you need a machine gun for?
Me: Since it's obvious that any answer I give you won't be a "reasonable" answer to you and you're going to be an ass about it. I'm not going to "entertain" you with an answer.
Me: Have a good day. Be safe.

It will definately pay to have all my paperwork with me. This isn't the first time and if pulled over it'll hopefully save some hassles.

My SOT:

The silencer I ordered (the one that I was talking about earlier) arrive at the PO on Saturday and a delivery was attempted. The SOT wasn't home so a slip was left.

I called him this afternoon to see what the deal was with it... Make sure he had the slip and all. He tells me that he went to the post office but they wouldn't give him the package because the package is addressed to me care of "his buisness name". He tells me to go up there tomorrow (a 140 mile drive) and we'll go to the post office to pick it up. Ok, fine. I have no problem doing that. I have to drive up there to get his signature any way.

I figure I'll call the post office to make sure the package is still there and to let them know I'll be there to pick it up tomorrow. A lady answers:

Me: Hi. How are you?
PO: Fine. How can I help you.
Me: My name is XXXXXX and a package arrived there for me care of "SOT buisness name". Apparently a delivery was attempted on Saturday but he wasn't available so a slip was left. He said that he stopped in this morning to pick it up but the clerk couldn't give it to him because it was technically addressed to me.
PO: What's the number?
Me: 123455667778889
PO: Okay. Hold on.
PO: I spoke with the clerk. She remembers him. The clerk brought the package to him and he said he didn't know the person it was addressed to and he just left the office after that.
Me: So is the package still available for pick up?
PO: The lady who deals with returns is already gone for the day. Hold on and I'll look around to see if I can find it.
PO: I've looked everywhere it should be and I checked the computer. The computer doesn't show a return but sometimes there's a delay in the computer. Later tonight check the tracking info and it may be updated. Call me in the morning and I'll ask the lady that deals with returns.
Me: . Ok. Thanks.

So I'm fuming right now because the SOT lied to me. Or maybe the PO is thinking of the wrong person. What makes it worse is that I'm leaving on Monday to Kansas City for a month. I was wanting this in the mail to the BATFE before I left on vacation.

All in all, this may be a blessing in disguise. The can I bought was a SS Phantom and I really don't shoot it near as much 5.56 as my 9mm setup. I think if the package is being returned, I'm going to look for a different SOT and ask ADCO to give me store credit for the can and I'll get a Trident 9... I think I'll be better off that route.

rant off.

lesson #1: No more small talk with LE about Title II stuff.
lesson #2: Always have paperwork with you.
lesson #3: No small talk with LE about Title II stuff.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 2:12:50 PM EDT
Nice rant. 8
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 2:15:05 PM EDT
Wow, best of luck to you bud. That sucks all around.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 3:06:33 PM EDT
Sorry you had trouble with one of my brothers, not all of us know the firearms laws.

I had a supervisor tell me one time that I couldn't arrest a guy that was drunk and carrying because he had a carry permit. I had to get the law and show the super that it was illegal, not to mention stupid to carry while intoxicated.

Please don't judge us all by the stupid ones.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 3:22:37 PM EDT
Not all LEO are ignorant, some of them know their stuff, its like talking to an anti-gun person they think all cars are bullet proof and anything over .22lr is overkill. btw was this Deputy a rookie or what?
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 3:48:00 PM EDT
What DO you need a silencer for, anyways? What are you, some kind of gun nut?
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 4:11:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2008 4:47:39 PM EDT by Magoo6541]
I'm not going to judge ALL LEOs by one guy. But in my experience most LEOs that I've met have been civilian anti 2A people. The thing that pissed me off most was that I felt he was saying that he had to worry about ME shooting him up.

I realize that no one is immune from a break down but damn man. You're visiting MY firehouse looking for MY help and you're going to insult ME while you're here???? I realize that cops don't look at FF's the same way they see other cops. But we're on the same team.

He wasn't a rookie. He was a CPL which would mean he'd been at the SO for a while.

-

Like I said in the OP. This may be a blessing in disguise with the silencer. I think I'd enjoy and get more use out of a 9mm can for my F/A AR15/9 more than the SS Phantom.

ETA - Just got an E-Mail back from ADCO (company where I purchased the can from). Steve said that since the Form 3 has been approved, it legally belongs to my SOT. He must send it right back to this guy.

The one possible bit of white lining just crashed down. DAMN I'm pissed.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 4:20:12 PM EDT
In Arizona we have very friendly gun laws. As an LEO im trying to educate the Brothers in Blue about the whole NFA thing but its hard. Most Uni's don't have the common sense button and still refuse to believe the legality of NFA. Others become addicted and the numbers are growing with NFA owners on the Tac Team. I think were almost completely full with NFA junkies now.

Here is some basic things to inform the officer.
1. Since they would be seizing a legal firearm with out cause they would be in violation of Federal Law. (illegaly in posession of your firearm)
2. If they don't believe you they can call the local ATF office and get the scoop.
3. ALWAYS have the local ATF office number in your wallet just incase you need to make a call.
4. Even though it makes your head hurt try your best to give some minimal education on the basic legality of the NFA. (not all will understand) its like them counting to 20 with both boots on.
5. Show them the signatures on the back they can google the name on the right or look on the ATF web site he is a BIG WIG at the NFA Branch. He who counter signed your approval.

Not a dig on my fellow brothers all over the country but some just need wise up.

Every time im with my buddy from ATF shooting the he
Good Luck.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 5:15:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By K9GATOR:
1. Since they would be seizing a legal firearm with out cause they would be in violation of Federal Law. (illegally in possession of your firearm)


That won't fly, good luck with that one.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 6:46:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Magoo6541:

ETA - Just got an E-Mail back from ADCO (company where I purchased the can from). Steve said that since the Form 3 has been approved, it legally belongs to my SOT. He must send it right back to this guy.


Wrong. Your SOT has not received the silencer so the transfer has not taken place. The transferee (ADCO in this case) can cancel a transfer at any time before the transfer has taken place.

Don't take my word for it. Call ATF's NFA branch and ask them.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 6:53:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:

Originally Posted By Magoo6541:

ETA - Just got an E-Mail back from ADCO (company where I purchased the can from). Steve said that since the Form 3 has been approved, it legally belongs to my SOT. He must send it right back to this guy.


Wrong. Your SOT has not received the silencer so the transfer has not taken place. The transferee (ADCO in this case) can cancel a transfer at any time before the transfer has taken place.

Don't take my word for it. Call ATF's NFA branch and ask them.


That's what I thought. I asked for that to happen but I was told otherwise. I don't want to start a pissing contest but I would really rather not use this SOT.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 4:07:28 AM EDT
New to class 3 NFA stuff. What is a SOT?
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 4:46:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2008 4:50:12 AM EDT by ANGST]

Originally Posted By lostangel:
New to class 3 NFA stuff. What is a SOT?


Special Occupational Tax , Its a tax paid by manufacturers and dealers so they don't pay a per transfer tax.

A dealer gets a type 01 FFL and Class III SOT to deal in NFA (except destructive devices, which require a type 09 FFL) This is where the whole "Class III" firearms/license nonsense comes in .


From the Bardwell faq :

Special (Occupational) Taxpayers (SOT's) under the NFA are exempt
from some of the making or transfer taxes. All SOT's may transfer
weapons between themselves tax free. However a transfer between an
unlicensed individual and a SOT will require the tax. And unless
one has a class 2 SOT, there is a tax on making an NFA weapon,
except for making by or on behalf of a government entity. Sole
proprietor SOT's need not get the law enforcement certification for
any transfer, except DD's (unless they have the appropriate FFL),
even for their own personal collection, although in that case they
should pay the $200 transfer tax. They also need not attach a
photo to the transfer paperwork, nor submit fingerprints. The
Crime Bill (effective 9/13/94) now requires these things with FFL
applications, and SOT applications, however, and ATF was requiring
them even before that became law, since early 1994. If one plans
to engage in business in NFA weapons, one needs to be a SOT, just
as one needs the FFL if they plan to engage in the business of
dealing, making, or importing regular firearms.

The classes of SOT holders:
Class
1 - importer of NFA firearms
2 - manufacturer of NFA firearms
3 - dealer in NFA firearms

A class 1 or 2 SOT may also deal in NFA firearms. A class 3 SOT
costs $500 a year, due each July 1. A class 1 or 2 SOT costs $1000
a year, except that SOT's who did less than $500,000 in gross
receipts in business the previous year qualify for a reduced rate
of $500 per year, also due July 1. One must also have the
appropriate FFL to engage in the specific activity, as well as the
SOT. This is because most NFA weapons are also title 1 weapons, and
thus both the law regulating title 1 weapons (the GCA) and title 2
weapons (the NFA) must be complied with. As with the privacy of
Registry information and transfer information, SOT status is also
protected tax information, and ATF will not release lists of SOT
holders, as they will of FFL holders.

Link Posted: 7/8/2008 4:47:35 AM EDT
"Class 3" refers to a firearms dealer who has paid a special tax, called the "Special Occupational Tax" (SOT) to deal in machineguns and other National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 5:12:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Magoo6541:

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Wrong. Your SOT has not received the silencer so the transfer has not taken place. The transferee (ADCO in this case) can cancel a transfer at any time before the transfer has taken place.

Don't take my word for it. Call ATF's NFA branch and ask them.


That's what I thought. I asked for that to happen but I was told otherwise. I don't want to start a pissing contest but I would really rather not use this SOT.


Could be they just don't want to deal with it. You could ask about a restocking fee for taking the can back.

Or (and I realize this would involve dealing with your original SOT), once the can gets in, don't transfer it to you. Just advertise it online and sell it then buy what you want. You will still have dealer fees for your SOT, but there would be no tax to transfer it to another SOT. If you take possession, there will be the tax to transfer to you, and another tax to transfer it out.

Better yet - get both cans.

You know you want to.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 9:20:34 AM EDT
I did not realize that you had to have a NEED to excercise your rights.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 12:40:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2008 1:24:47 PM EDT by Magoo6541]

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:

Originally Posted By Magoo6541:

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Wrong. Your SOT has not received the silencer so the transfer has not taken place. The transferee (ADCO in this case) can cancel a transfer at any time before the transfer has taken place.

Don't take my word for it. Call ATF's NFA branch and ask them.


That's what I thought. I asked for that to happen but I was told otherwise. I don't want to start a pissing contest but I would really rather not use this SOT.


Could be they just don't want to deal with it. You could ask about a restocking fee for taking the can back.

Or (and I realize this would involve dealing with your original SOT), once the can gets in, don't transfer it to you. Just advertise it online and sell it then buy what you want. You will still have dealer fees for your SOT, but there would be no tax to transfer it to another SOT. If you take possession, there will be the tax to transfer to you, and another tax to transfer it out.

Better yet - get both cans.

You know you want to.


Oh... I am going to get both... I just can't right now. I only had the money for the SS Phantom so that's why I went with that. I'm going on vacation on Monday and wanted to get a transfer started before I left. That way, when I come back I should only have 2-3 weeks until approval.

Well, now that I'm not going to be able to get a transfer started, and I now have enough $$$ for the Trident, that's what I'd prefer to do. I called up the BATFE and the phone screener couldn't answer the question so he transferred me to an examiner, which ended up being the incorrect examiner.

Mr Lamberger said that he believes there is no reason why the Form 3 cannot be cancelled. But he said that he's fairly new and would like to get a second opinion and a positive answer from another person. Unfortunately when I called, no one else was available. So I'll call in the morning to talk with someone else.

I also e-mailed Adco and let him know what I was up to. I offerd to compensate him for any extra time or expense on his part. Steve said that if this is the case (can be cancelled), he'll have no problem cancelling the Form and getting me what I want.

A huge +1 to adco/bigbore.

ETA: I forgot:

I called up the PO this morning to get a 100% answer on the status of the package. The lady confirmed that the package had been returned. She said that the carrier attempted to deliver the package. SOT was unavaiable so a slip was left. On the slip he wrote "magoo6541" instead of "sot's name/buisness name". When he came into the office he handed the clerk the slip and said "I don't recognize the name". The clerk said "I'll retrieve the package and see what the address says". When the clerk returned with the package, the SOT had left. Since he left, the package was marked undeliverable and returned to adco.

So I don't know if I can really blame the SOT 100%. He should have waited until the clerk came back with the package. I don't know why he gave me the story he did. At this point it's going to be a he-said/she-said thing.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 2:27:15 PM EDT
Who was the SOT? Do you live in Horry County?

Just curious and everyone would probably stay away from him/her.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 2:40:11 PM EDT
sot should be sol if you deal with uncle sam
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 5:17:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2008 5:18:42 PM EDT by tony_k]
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 5:29:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2008 6:02:58 PM EDT by Magoo6541]

Originally Posted By dmtsc:
Who was the SOT? Do you live in Horry County?

Just curious and everyone would probably stay away from him/her.


I don't live near Horry Co.

I'm not out to ruin the guys buisness. It could have been a simple misunderstanding or miscommunication between the post office and the SOT. I'm not going to put all the blame on this guy... Although he probably deserves some blame.

Unfortunately there's not much to choose from when it comes to SOTs in my immediate area. There's a shop that's roughly the same distance from this guy ~140 miles. I've heard some horror stories from that shop from friends who've delt with him. The biggest thing is he prefers to mail all the paperwork to the ATF themselves. With this, they add $200 to your total for the NFA tax. But then the tax the total. So you're being taxed on tax. Another thing is if you go out on your own and purchase an item and just ask for a transfer, he bumps his transfer fee up quite a bit.

I really don't know what to do. I know there's some really good SOTs in the upstate area but that's a long, long drive.

ETA: If anyone wants to know the county, send me an IM and I'll respond to it.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 5:36:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dmtsc:
Who was the SOT? Do you live in Horry County?

Just curious and everyone would probably stay away from him/her.

+1 want to know the county
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 6:05:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2008 6:20:14 PM EDT by Magoo6541]

Originally Posted By tony_k:
The transfer is not complete until the transferee takes possession of the NFA item. At any time up until that moment, it can be cancelled (and, if it is a transfer via a Form 4, the transfer tax will be refunded).

But.

AFAIK, BATFE says the only party which can cancel the transfer is the transferor -- which, in this case, is ADCO. And it sounds like they are not willing to do so, which is understandable, since they have done nothing wrong: The issue is with your SOT, and with your buyer's remorse (you now prefer a different suppressor to the one you ordered).

My suggestion would be for you to get on the phone with ADCO. They have invested the time and effort to file the Form 3 paperwork, pack and ship the suppressor, and IMHO they should be compensated for that wasted investment. Since SOTs normally charge about $100, give or take, for the paperwork to receive an NFA item, I would think that ADCO deserves compensation at least equal to that.

I know this all started when your SOT turned into an idiot. But you chose that SOT; ADCO had nothing to do with the selection, and should not pay the price. Your SOT should, though I bet the odds are long that you'll get a cent of compensation outa him.

FWIW. YMMV.


I completely agree with you and have already offered to compensate bigbore for this.

ETA: From an e-mail:


Magoo
snip.....
So I’d like to get the serno if possible. I realize that this causes more time and paperwork from you. If you just don’t want to cancel the Form 3 I can understand. If, however, you would be willing to do this I’d be happy to compensate you for it. I realize you have a business to run and you probably have better things to do than deal with this, which in no way is your fault.

snip....


Also, I don' know if I'd exactly catagorize this as buyers remorse. If I change SOTs the Form 3 needs to be cancelled anyway. I figured that if that is going to happen, I may as well upgrade. In true Arfcom fassion, and depending on how this month goes, hopefully I'll be able to swing both.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 11:59:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2008 12:02:26 AM EDT by rain252]
(delete multiple post)
Link Posted: 7/9/2008 12:00:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2008 12:02:49 AM EDT by rain252]
(Delete multiple post)
Link Posted: 7/9/2008 12:00:44 AM EDT

Deputy: Silencers are illegal.
Me: Nope. I already own a silencer and a machine gun. Their completely legal.
Deputy: What! Those are definately illegal.
Me: No, their completely legal.
Deputy: How did you determine that?



I know LEO's must get some training generally about when firearms are illegal.... like possession of a defaced gun, possession of a gun by a felon, concealed carry with no permit, etc, etc.
I know they don't have time in the academy to teach them about every law, but when they get taught about firearm violations, I'm surprised they don't get a little instruction on NFA since so many like the Deputy are not aware of it. It must be because it's relatively rare for them to come across an NFA weapon, so the training doesn't see the need to address it?
Link Posted: 7/9/2008 12:01:24 AM EDT

Deputy: Silencers are illegal.
Me: Nope. I already own a silencer and a machine gun. Their completely legal.
Deputy: What! Those are definately illegal.
Me: No, their completely legal.
Deputy: How did you determine that?



I know LEO's must get some training generally about when firearms are illegal.... like possession of a defaced gun, possession of a gun by a felon, concealed carry with no permit, etc, etc.
I know they don't have time in the academy to teach them about every law, but when they get taught about firearm violations, I'm surprised they don't get a little instruction on NFA since so many like the Deputy are not aware of it. It must be because it's relatively rare for them to come across an NFA weapon, so the training doesn't see the need to address it?
Link Posted: 7/10/2008 9:58:03 AM EDT
Well, I wouldn't get mad with the PO or your SOT! ADCO is a great company but I'm not sure why you owe them anything? You bought a can from them if they wanted a profit (and I would assume they had one in there, they are a company and too stay in business a company has too make mney) they would have put the profit into the original price.

If I was gonna get mad at anyone it would be ADCO they sent it to the SOT with your name on the package???? A reciept on the inside of the package is sufficeint enough! By putting your name any where on the outside of the package they now have created a problem as far as the PO is concerned. The PO can leave it at his business because they have that address and can assume in good faith that you are there. But when he had to go pick it up from the PO he can only prove he is him, by showing his government issued id. He has no way of proving he is representing you or that he is anyone but him. This isn't anything unusual walk into a UPS or FEDEX to pick up a package after a delivery has been attempted. They have a big ole sign that says: "You must display a Government issued ID, before you can pick up a package." Then it also says it must match the name and address, not either or. Therefore the only person that screwed up was ADCO by putting your name on the package. You aren't an SOT so you don't need to have cans that are on Form 3's shipped to you anyway.

Oh, and as too a form 3 they are not exactly being forthcomming on that either. There isn't much to do to generate a form 3 nor is there much involved in canceling one. If they want to stop it anytime up until your clear you should be good, as far as the ATF is concerned!
Link Posted: 7/10/2008 12:44:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By silentweapon338:
snip..

They have a big ole sign that says: "You must display a Government issued ID, before you can pick up a package." Then it also says it must match the name and address, not either or. Therefore the only person that screwed up was ADCO by putting your name on the package. You aren't an SOT so you don't need to have cans that are on Form 3's shipped to you anyway.

snip..


That did add to the confusion. However, from what I understand the address label read:

"Magoo6541"
c/o "SOT buisness name"
number, street ect...

I can see how this could be confusing to the carrier. However, when I called the P/O they told me that it was sent with signature confirmation. No ID is required for this. If it was certified or registered, that would have been different. I would have had to receive it.

When the SOT presented the slip to the counter clerk he said that he doesn't recognize the name. The clerk said, let's see what is on the address label. When the clerk returned to the counter with the package, the SOT had left the PO.

Link Posted: 7/11/2008 9:58:09 PM EDT
Your paperwork for any cass 3 item is federal tax info and under no circumstance any business of state, county, or city police. They may detain you until the ATF shows up.
Link Posted: 7/12/2008 8:44:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Puddingking:
Your paperwork for any cass 3 item is federal tax info and under no circumstance any business of state, county, or city police. They may detain you until the ATF shows up.


Uhhh, ....... well yeah. This is wrong on so many levels. Either you don't know the law and reality, or you are simply ill-informed. Either way, you're passing on bad info.
Link Posted: 7/12/2008 10:20:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By v188:

Originally Posted By Puddingking:
Your paperwork for any cass 3 item is federal tax info and under no circumstance any business of state, county, or city police. They may detain you until the ATF shows up.


Uhhh, ....... well yeah. This is wrong on so many levels. Either you don't know the law and reality, or you are simply ill-informed. Either way, you're passing on bad info.



Actually, he's right. It's a tax document and should be treated as such. Unfortunately in most situations you'll have to show them in order to avoid a hassle.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:54:06 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By ORinTX:
height=8
Originally Posted By v188:
height=8
Originally Posted By Puddingking:
Your paperwork for any cass 3 item is federal tax info and under no circumstance any business of state, county, or city police. They may detain you until the ATF shows up.


Uhhh, ....... well yeah. This is wrong on so many levels. Either you don't know the law and reality, or you are simply ill-informed. Either way, you're passing on bad info.



Actually, he's right. It's a tax document and should be treated as such. Unfortunately in most situations you'll have to show them in order to avoid a hassle.



Neener, neener neener!!! Just kiddingI can't speak for the rest of the colonies, but out here in the Arizona Territory I have never been questioned or even looked at funny for shooting anything suppressed or automatic in the desert or at the state run shooting range. Even Sheriff Joe Arpaio's boys know when they have no jurisdiction and he is "The Toughest Sheriff in America".
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 1:36:00 AM EDT
Local LE connot enforce Fed law, only Feds.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 11:22:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KYFUZZ:
Local LE connot enforce Fed law, only Feds.


Most states (probably all) have laws that read somthing to the effect of:

"[Title II weapon] is illegal in the State of [your state] unless it is possessed in accordance with 18 U.S.C. [NFA part of US code]....

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