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Posted: 11/28/2005 9:39:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2005 9:39:56 PM EDT by Troy]
I'm shopping for my first gun safe. Budget is $300-$600 and fire protection and a pretty paint job are not my top priority. Needs to hold 14 guns, including my long FALs and shotguns. Most of the ones I've seen are Stack-On brand. Are they any good? How many locking bolts is enough? the safe will be in an unheated garage. Is rust (of the safe and my guns) going to be an issue?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 12:58:40 PM EDT
FYI the Stack-On 14-gun convertible safe weighs in at 535 lbs. Hopefully most of that is steel...
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 1:22:46 PM EDT
FWIW, An old locksmith told my father that he can get into his Liberty safe in a couple of minutes with two screw drivers. He suggested Fort Knox safes. The price difference is sick.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 1:34:22 PM EDT
I have 3 sentry safes and 2 wooden gun cabinets. I worry more about theft than I do fire so the Sentry meet my needs. I have them bolted together and plan to get a fourth and bolt it to the other three. They are bolted back to back and could likely be taken apart with a torch. They will not fit through any door in a group like that so the torch would have to come to them. The wooden cabinets are very nice, one walnut & one cherry. I would sell them and buy more Sentrys. I am not sure of the combined weight but they are not going anywhere. be sure and put a golden rod in each as rust can be an issue. I have less invested in the 3 safes than i would have paid for 1 with a fancy paint job. Plus I have more room.

Chinook3
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:07:37 PM EDT
I have an American Security and am very happy with it. It falls into your price range and is one tough safe.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:21:38 PM EDT
In regard to deterring criminals, if they can't carry it out of the house its probably not going to get broken into unless they know they have alot of time. I had to drill the locks out of my cabinet (not safe) last year because I lost the keys. Got a new lock set and went to start drilling. Ended up going through 2 good bits and it took 2 1/2 hrs. Thats a cheap 89$ cabinet, so I couldn't imagine trying to crack a $500 safe. O yeah... I found the keys a week later in a pair of jeans...
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 6:23:14 PM EDT
I have concluded that when I get the money, I am just going to probably buy a Sentry, bolt 'er down big time, and call it a day. I am not going to freak out about fires and such (which I know can happen) but moreso burglary (which would seem to be more frequent)...

Still not sure about whether to get the combo lock or digital lock... Your guys opinions?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 6:49:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JBravo223:
check out the sentry safes... walmart has a 14 gun safe for about $350

eta: you should always protect your guns from rust.. especially when in an enclosed space like a safe. get a golden rod and some silica gel....

I have a 14 gun safe with a golden rod, 4 pounds of silica, and a hydrometer (measures humidity)... it never really gets above 50% Relative Humidity...



And I thought all this time a Hydrometer was used to measure specific gravity of fluids.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 7:18:01 PM EDT
I don't know if you can do it this way anymore but I ordered my Canon safe without an interior and saved a lot of money by designing and building my own. It's not hard to do, just plywood and a piece of carpet and it looks as good as what you would buy. I purchased my Canon safe about 20 years ago for $650 and it's big enough to get inside and stand up (without the interior) and weighs over 700 lbs. empty.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 7:46:22 PM EDT
I read all these posts. And without flaming me, please tell me why I need a safe.

The consensus appears to be that a safe won't protect my guns in a serious fire.

As for theft, I have three American Pit Bull Terriers IN MY HOUSE, an alarm system with armed response, and a Homak four lock gun cabinet bolted to the wall in a closet.

Last, I have enough homeowner's insurance to cover the value of all my guns (about 10 pistols and 3 rifles).
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 7:54:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SilverState:
I read all these posts. And without flaming me, please tell me why I need a safe.

The consensus appears to be that a safe won't protect my guns in a serious fire.

As for theft, I have three American Pit Bull Terriers IN MY HOUSE, an alarm system with armed response, and a Homak four lock gun cabinet bolted to the wall in a closet.

Last, I have enough homeowner's insurance to cover the value of all my guns (about 10 pistols and 3 rifles).



You don't!
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:04:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KCMojo:

(2) Humidity: goldenrod.


+1

Remington also makes a rechageable unit that you can drop in. You can also buy bages od Desecant(sp?). Some use kitty litter, but I question the effectiveness of these in that order.


I have one, charge lasts about 2-4weeks depending on how often I have the door open.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:22:34 PM EDT
I just got one of these Patriot Safes

Because they are backordered til December 1st, they added the digital lock for free.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:28:44 PM EDT
I too am looking for a reasonably priced gun safe. I have numerous handguns and rifles. I want to avoid the $1,000+ safes, but I find it difficult to find a safe that caters to both rifles and handguns.

Any suggestions?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:33:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By K00lGuy:
I too am looking for a reasonably priced gun safe. I have numerous handguns and rifles. I want to avoid the $1,000+ safes, but I find it difficult to find a safe that caters to both rifles and handguns.

Any suggestions?



Did you happen to read the past pages? There are several choices that the guys have posted and why... Give it a read!
Link Posted: 10/26/2005 7:44:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2005 7:46:54 PM EDT by JBravo223]
check out the sentry safes... walmart has a 14 gun safe for about $350

eta: you should always protect your guns from rust.. especially when in an enclosed space like a safe. get a golden rod and some silica gel....

I have a 14 gun safe with a golden rod, 4 pounds of silica, and a hydrometer (measures humidity)... it never really gets above 50% Relative Humidity...
Link Posted: 10/26/2005 8:54:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2005 8:58:31 PM EDT
at that price range yer limted,also bolt it to the floor!
Link Posted: 10/26/2005 9:16:45 PM EDT
Get some Tidy cat crystals.. Not the kitty litter.. The jug of dessicant crystals.. Fill up a sock and tie it off.. Throw in bottom of safe.. Good dessicant if you cant or dont want to afford a Goldenrod.
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 4:34:14 AM EDT
I just bought the sentry safe last night. I love it; it's heavier than a sumbitch and solid as hell. I highly recommend it! Anyway, what's a goldenrod?
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 4:39:42 AM EDT
At the upper end of your spending limit is the Winchester safe at Sam's Club. It will hold up to 24 rifles and has room for other storage. Check it out on their website...don't worry about the prices being high. The web has shipping included in the price (they say it is free), but the same $888 safe is $590 at the store.
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 6:43:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clasky:
I just bought the sentry safe last night. I love it; it's heavier than a sumbitch and solid as hell. I highly recommend it! Anyway, what's a goldenrod?



Plug in device that keeps humidity in check. Your Sentry safe has prefab holes in the back for this I believe.

Best way to describe it... Looks like a big curling iron somewhat...
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 6:55:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:
At the upper end of your spending limit is the Winchester safe at Sam's Club. It will hold up to 24 rifles and has room for other storage. Check it out on their website...don't worry about the prices being high. The web has shipping included in the price (they say it is free), but the same $888 safe is $590 at the store.



Yep, they have the matte finish ones at the Santa Fe Sam's Club with a digital lock for $600. Hell of a deal, and much sturdier/larger than the Sentry's (The wal-mart 14-gun Sentry weighs about half what the Sam's Winchester 11/22 safe weighs.)
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 7:48:38 AM EDT
I have the Sentry and like it. Wish it was bigger though!!! I've thought about buying the smaller Sentry as well and bolting it to the larger Sentry for handgun and maybe ammo storage.

I've been happy. I'd rather have a larger, more expensive safe but don't see much of a reason to. The Sentry safes can be broken into but the vast majority of thieves won't bother.

I've had it for about 3 years.
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 8:26:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2005 8:28:52 AM EDT by TomHighway]
I have the Browning Bronze model. It is 36" wide and 27" deep, or about the size of a refrigerator. The cost was about $1,200 plus tax and delivery.

Everyone has a view on which locking mechanism is best. I went with the traditional combo lock. I did not want an electronic keypad. I also did not want a combo lock that you can alternatively open with a key. Too much chance of someone picking the lock.

One of my friends gave me the best advice when buying a gun safe: pick out the one you think you need to hold all your guns, then buy the next size bigger. With 14 rifles, you will fill up about any safe pretty quick.

Remember that these gun safes are a great place to put other valuables, like bonds, car titles, backup copy of your harddrive, some ammo, watches, etc. I would also say that spending a little more money now will save you a lot more later, as you won't have to buy a second gun safe as many people have to, and you only have to install it once. Good luck.
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 8:38:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gene5:
at that price range yer limted,also bolt it to the floor!



I'll second that. Mine was about $800 4 or 5 years ago and weighs empty in the neighborhood of 650 pounds, so it's not that easy to move. I found it on sale at a local gunshop one day. Might want to look around for sales, maybe they're making room for deer hunting equipment or something.

Robert
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 8:51:52 AM EDT
I am curently in the market for a nice gun safe myself.

I actually have been talking to "Lifesafe" who also sells "Liberty" gun safes. The one that I am looking at right now, is 42" tall (with my shotgun being 40"), my AR of 36", and two Glock pistols. These safes are supposed to be good fire/burglary ratings. Price is around $700 - from $800 on a $100 price reduction atm (not counting the accessories- have to get a drawer shelf cause this not actually designed as a true "gun safe" and the goldenrod and a light).

Of course, now I am wondering if the Sam's safe is better (or just as good at $600).

The safe I am looking at is 12 cubic feet, 24"x42"x20" (WxHxD), weighs 350 lbs., digital lock and has three shelves that I will have to take out, to be able to put two long guns and two pistols in. It is rated at 1200 degrees for 30 mins, 1-38th " thick, 12-guage, and 3/16th plate steel door.

Not much sure what to do at this time. I dont want to spend an arm and a leg for a safe, but certainly do not want a cheap one.
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 8:55:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tominator425:
I am curently in the market for a nice gun safe myself.

I actually have been talking to "Lifesafe" who also sells "Liberty" gun safes. The one that I am looking at right now, is 42" tall (with my shotgun being 40"), my AR of 36", and two Glock pistols. These safes are supposed to be good fire/burglary ratings. Price is around $700 - from $800 on a $100 price reduction atm (not counting the accessories- have to get a drawer shelf cause this not actually designed as a true "gun safe" and the goldenrod and a light).

Of course, now I am wondering if the Sam's safe is better (or just as good at $600).

The safe I am looking at is 12 cubic feet, 24"x42"x20" (WxHxD), weighs 350 lbs., digital lock and has three shelves that I will have to take out, to be able to put two long guns and two pistols in. It is rated at 1200 degrees for 30 mins, 1-38th " thick, 12-guage, and 3/16th plate steel door.

Not much sure what to do at this time. I dont want to spend an arm and a leg for a safe, but certainly do not want a cheap one.



I can only speak for my safe. The Winchester from Sam's was a hell of a deal. It is sounds almost identical to the Liberty you are looking at. It has the same fire rating and steel plate. If all is equal, go with the Winchester and use the diffence to purchase goldenrod etc.
Link Posted: 10/27/2005 10:34:36 AM EDT
I bit of information about fire safes:

"fire safes" are a marketing gimmic designed to give you more "piece of mind." All home-use fire safes are only rated to withstand 45 minutes of fire NO MATTER WHAT THE SALES PERSON IS TRYING TO TELL YOU. They are basically standard safes with a sheet of drywall on the inside.

Now, there are 2 types of fires you will deal with in your home:

1. There is a small fire and you easily put it out with the fire extinguisher. With this scenario, you don't have to worry about fire consuming your precious collection.

2. There is a big fire and the whole place either burns down or the fire department will show up and hose the place down. Either way, your safe will have been exposed to fire/smoke/water for a lot longer than 45 minutes.

A lot of people also keep their safes in the basement which is the worst place for them in a fire because when the FD shows up and hoses the house down, all the water ends up in the basement, giving you a flooded room for days which is more than enough time to soak through the safe and damage the contents. Also (if you keep the safe upstairs), in the case of a major fire where the whole house comes down, the safe comes crashing through the floor and ends up in the lake that used to be your basement anyway (not to mention the fact that everything is destroyed in the fall).

This is not just me talking out of my ass. I work at a major product design consultancy firm and have done work for a client that manufactures safes. I have been involved in extensive product and material research on this subject. Trust me guys, there is no such thing as a true "fire proof" safe today. Buy a safe to thwart burglars and to keep your weapons out of childrens' hands. Get an all-inclusive insurance rider attached to your home owner's or renter's insurance in case of fire, natural disaster, etc.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 6:35:53 PM EDT
I just got this at Dick's for $329.98

Putting it in upstais master BR Closet so Fire safe of no use. (Floor burns safe falls 3 floors and breaks open. For Fire safe be sure to put on concrete so they dont fall or it is a waste of time. I work in banking industry. We see lots of fire safe/file cabinet issues.) If upstairs save the money.

I like it better than the similar Sentry model at Wally World for same price.

http://dsp.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p1690117dt.jpg
www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1866921&cp=712508.715299.702353&filter=yes&fCat=702353&fbrandid=90370&fpricesort=priceAscending&parentPage=family
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 6:41:44 PM EDT
This might seem like an inane question--but how do you get a 350-400lb smooth-walled safe into your house?
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 7:06:27 PM EDT
Appliance dolly..
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 7:33:37 PM EDT
Academy Sports usually has Cannon Safes for a decent price.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 8:09:29 PM EDT
I'm not sure what the Wally World Sentry Safe I bought weighs (but it's heavy enough to break a scale). All I kno is that it took 3 of us young, in-shape guys to get it in my second story apartment and we were cursing the entire time! Basically, one of us went before the safe to pull it over the steps as the other two pushed from behind. Once we got it upstairs, we just slid it on its side. It sucked the entire time, but we did it and it sure ain't going anywhere now!
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 8:56:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tdogg77:
This might seem like an inane question--but how do you get a 350-400lb smooth-walled safe into your house?



The same way a theif gets it out if not bolted down.

Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:20:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:

Originally Posted By Tominator425:
I am curently in the market for a nice gun safe myself.

I actually have been talking to "Lifesafe" who also sells "Liberty" gun safes. The one that I am looking at right now, is 42" tall (with my shotgun being 40"), my AR of 36", and two Glock pistols. These safes are supposed to be good fire/burglary ratings. Price is around $700 - from $800 on a $100 price reduction atm (not counting the accessories- have to get a drawer shelf cause this not actually designed as a true "gun safe" and the goldenrod and a light).

Of course, now I am wondering if the Sam's safe is better (or just as good at $600).

The safe I am looking at is 12 cubic feet, 24"x42"x20" (WxHxD), weighs 350 lbs., digital lock and has three shelves that I will have to take out, to be able to put two long guns and two pistols in. It is rated at 1200 degrees for 30 mins, 1-38th " thick, 12-guage, and 3/16th plate steel door.

Not much sure what to do at this time. I dont want to spend an arm and a leg for a safe, but certainly do not want a cheap one.



I can only speak for my safe. The Winchester from Sam's was a hell of a deal. It is sounds almost identical to the Liberty you are looking at. It has the same fire rating and steel plate. If all is equal, go with the Winchester and use the diffence to purchase goldenrod etc.



Actually what I was thinking, dvr9. I cancelled the Liberty order yesterday, and plan to get the Winchester safe. Thanks for your advice!
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:29:32 PM EDT
hmmm, after reading the above... I think I will just look at getting one like that one at Dick's or such. Just to basically keep it safe from kids and "deter" or slow down a thief. Forget about the fire crap, insure it, and hope it never happens.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:34:25 PM EDT
I got a Cannon. I like it and I think I got my money's worth. I paid $650 for with the digital lock. Dial Lock would have been $50 less. It can hold 14 long guns, and some extras on the top shelves. Actually it would hold 18 or more long guns if you were creative. It's got a 30 minute/ 1200 degree rating IIRC. It's painted flat black and it ain't purdy. There are lots of better safes out there, but I could afford this one and it will deter all but the "best" of burglurs, I hope.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:41:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2005 9:42:59 PM EDT by Tominator425]
And I guess, for all intensive purposes, this is all I would need for my (1) AR, (1) shotgun, and (2) pistols. Just something to keep them locked up. And no... I am not planning on buying a thousand other long guns, so don't need a 50 gun safe.

eta: what do you guys think between combination or keypad?
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:50:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2005 9:52:14 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By Tominator425:
And I guess, for all intensive purposes, this is all I would need for my (1) AR, (1) shotgun, and (2) pistols. Just something to keep them locked up. And no... I am not planning on buying a thousand other long guns, so don't need a 50 gun safe.

eta: what do you guys think between combination or keypad?



Depends.

'Safe cracker' criminals have spent years learning how to crack/break/destroy/otherwise get past dial-combination locks.

The digital locks are newer, and thus less understood by most criminals. Also they can hold much more complex codes, thus they are about impossible to 'crack'. Also because the digital locks use safely protected electric motors to open the lock, rather than more exposed mechanical systems, a criminal cannot break into a safe that way as easy.

On the other hand, a really smart criminal might figure out how to cut around the lock and then apply voltage to the 'unlock' outputs... Or he might just say "To heck with it" and just use a plasma-cutter or thermite charge to take the door off.

Personally, I think digital is better.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:10:20 PM EDT
if you loose power when you really need your gun it would suck to have an electronic locking system that depends on power.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:46:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gorvibub:
if you loose power when you really need your gun it would suck to have an electronic locking system that depends on power.



Id hate to see your house burn down when you lose power and the smoke detector stops.


They do not plug into the wall. Batteries! When you change the fire alarms change the gun safe.
I'll have mine out and on target, while you are out cold on the floor. That is after they hit you in the back of the head while you try to do the combo in the dark. It was nice knowing you in your burned down house with your locked dial safe.
Haha h=85%

Originally Posted By Tominator425:
And I guess, for all intensive purposes, this is all I would need for my (1) AR, (1) shotgun, and (2) pistols. Just something to keep them locked up. And no... I am not planning on buying a thousand other long guns, so don't need a 50 gun safe.

eta: what do you guys think between combination or keypad?



I like the quick nature of access to the guns that a electric can provide. I have had an electronic handgun safe for 10 years with no failure. Just check batteries. Change at time change like smoke and co detectors. Keep a spare near the safe and you should have better access than a std combo safe. It is also easier for my wife to remember the combo and access it more reliably when I am away. I could also give the combo to someone in a time of need over the phone. Then change it to a new combo afterwards.

If I wanted a larger or fire safe one for the garage for the collection, I would get a normal combo. The Winchester at Sam's does look like a hell of a buy. I saw it and I like it. Just wont fit where I need it. But for my bump in the night needs, ELECTRONIC.
Though extensive research all posts to this thread are worth $0.02
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 11:14:53 PM EDT
Just went through this myself. Most serious safe guys don't even consider the StackOns a real safe, just a locking cabinet.
If you're in OR check out Liberty Safes. Best bang for the buck, but it'll be at the top of your range. Factory sales are at NW Armory in Milwaukie. Word of warning: these are heavy mofos.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 7:53:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2005 7:54:55 AM EDT by eodinert]
To theives who know what they are doing, a digital is no safer than a mechanical lock.

The digital is much faster and easier if you need to get in under stress, or in the dark. OPSEC is much more important with a digital safe. Somebody watching you open a digital safe has a much better chance of figuring out how to open your safe than if you have a mechanical combination lock.

To someone who has never worked with a dial combination, even if they have the combination they may not be able to open the safe. Digital locks are fast and easy. Because digital combos are easier to set, it's tempting to pick a number that's too easy to remember (kids birthday, phone number, etc).

If professionals want your stuff, they are going to get it. There are other tools that will defeat a top of the line safe very quickly without attacking the lock/door.

Always buy the best/biggest safe that you can afford, even if you don't think you need it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 8:05:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MurdockTheCrazy:
On the other hand, a really smart criminal might figure out how to cut around the lock and then apply voltage to the 'unlock' outputs... Or he might just say "To heck with it" and just use a plasma-cutter or thermite charge to take the door off.

Personally, I think digital is better.



You know what? He goes to ALL that trouble, he can have my two long guns, as they are more important to him than me...
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 8:11:42 AM EDT
if you can raise a little more capital this cannon safe is one of the better deals out there

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Home-Office-Gun-SAFES-Cannon-AE31-Matte-Black-SAFE_W0QQitemZ7192223257QQcategoryZ52501QQrdZ1QQcm­dZViewItem

i shopped around alot and couldnt find a better deal on a 36" wide safe
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 8:14:40 AM EDT
I bought this one a year or so ago and am happy w/ it.

Link





SALE RedHead® Ranger 12/24 Fire Safe


RedHead® Ranger 12/24 Fire Safe
Regular price $899.99 - Save $100

This stylish safe secures and protects your firearms. Stores 12-24 long guns with a convertible interior. Fire rated at 1200° for up to 32 minutes. Includes a textured hunter green exterior finish and tan interior.

Features:

* 1" diameter bolts
* 3-spoke brass handle
* UL listed Group II lock
* Interior relocker
* Concealed hinges
* 10-gauge steel body and door
* Spy-proof top-read dial
* Bolt-down holes from bottom of safe
* Heat-sensitive expandable door seal
* 60" x 30" x 22"
* 23 cu. ft.
* Weight: 410 lbs.
* Limited lifetime warranty
* Made in USA
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 1:21:25 PM EDT
I just went through this also...my money went to whoever could deliver and install down a steeeeeeeeep staircase...I went with Heritage and am ver happy with it...although now I am concerned about the whole moisture issue and what about bolting it down...benefit??? Any thoughts...
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 1:39:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mj911sc:
I just went through this also...my money went to whoever could deliver and install down a steeeeeeeeep staircase...I went with Heritage and am ver happy with it...although now I am concerned about the whole moisture issue and what about bolting it down...benefit??? Any thoughts...



(1) Bolting it down: You probably don't have to worry about someone hauling it back up the staircase, but bolting it down does limit access to the safe at least a little (for cutting, etc). At least, I would guess it's easier to cut into the safe after knocking the safe over on its front. You might even get lucky and pop a weld by knocking it over like that on concrete?

(2) Humidity: goldenrod.
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 2:30:22 PM EDT

(2) Humidity: goldenrod.


+1

Remington also makes a rechageable unit that you can drop in. You can also buy bages od Desecant(sp?). Some use kitty litter, but I question the effectiveness of these in that order.
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 2:50:28 PM EDT
didn't read all the replies, but I bought the 14 gun Sentry safe from WalMart and it's great. It's not fire proof, but if my house burns down, I'll be worried more about where i'm going to live than if my guns are okay. I wouldn't have bought the safe but my wife reminded me of layaway (I've never used it before) and since there are no commitments to even buy, I decided to give it a try. Picked it up about a month later. So, if your on a budget, put a little down, and pay it off, that way your not using all your money at once, and you can keep some of it handy for if you need it.
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