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Posted: 8/21/2017 8:31:22 PM EDT
I reload for all my shotguns- .410 thru 12 ga. and I have pet loads for all them.

Here’s my dilemma: a friend recently acquired a 28 gauge that patterns kinda OK with my pet load; she does OK with it, but I’m wondering if adding a bit more oomph to the load may help with the pattern.

My pet load:
Winchester AA-HS hull
Winchester 209 primer
Remington PT28 wad
14.7 IMR SR-7625

Book data shows 11,200 psi and 1200 fps for the above load. I’ve never chrono’d it, so I’ll use it as baseline. Hodgdon data goes up to 15.3 grains of SR-7625 with the same components, but adds 25 fps and 500 psi to the load (again, book values).

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:11:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Have you put it on a pattern board?
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:20:07 PM EDT
[#2]
IMO, the pattern is decided by the barrel and choke, more powder/speed won't change that.
If we're talking clay birds here, it's strictly up to the shooter to break them. Some ammo may (due to speed or recoil) trick ones mind into thinking they need this or that ammo to shoot well but basically IMO, it's all basically the same.
Shoot better.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:31:16 AM EDT
[#3]
When I'm loading .410 and 20 ga., my #1 goal is to use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. So loading for my .410 has paid off in spades as it patterns beautifully and has done great for me shooting skeet, doves, and quail.
 So if I were you, I'd try to keep pressures down.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 7:30:18 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
When I'm loading .410 and 20 ga., my #1 goal is to use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. So loading for my .410 has paid off in spades as it patterns beautifully and has done great for me shooting skeet, doves, and quail.
 So if I were you, I'd try to keep pressures down.
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How is the shot seeing the pressure? Wad should seal/protect it, no? It may see more velocity at higher pressure but does a little more velocity make a difference? Have you recovered shot at both pressures to see difference? Interesting theory but I would need proof.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 7:45:17 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
Have you put it on a pattern board?
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Yes- with the full choke tube, the pattern shows a bit of a hole at around 7:00, with a fairly high density at 11:00 , fairly well-distributed with the modified tube, which OK for bird hunting, but not so much for trap.

With the more open choke (IC and CYL), the gun patterns very well, which works great for skeet.

She may have to buy another full-choke tube it looks like.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:20:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Use hard magnum shot, it deforms less, stays rounder. Magnum shot is lighter in weight per pellet. This lets more pellets in a given set amount of weight, like 3/4 oz   (28 ga).   When loading by volume, a skeet charge bar can be opened to drop  more pellets.  Or modify the shot bushing to drop the maximum weight.  A full 1/2 oz for the 410 is a big plus on the skeet field and legal. 

 To much choke may blow paterns.

 As said above " use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:05:38 AM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


How is the shot seeing the pressure? Wad should seal/protect it, no? It may see more velocity at higher pressure but does a little more velocity make a difference? Have you recovered shot at both pressures to see difference? Interesting theory but I would need proof.
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Quoted:


How is the shot seeing the pressure? Wad should seal/protect it, no? It may see more velocity at higher pressure but does a little more velocity make a difference? Have you recovered shot at both pressures to see difference? Interesting theory but I would need proof.
 The shot doesn't "see" the pressure but it's affected by it. Lay a .45 caliber lead ball on an anvil and whack it with a 6 oz. ball peen hammer then do the same thing using a 16 oz. ball peen hammer. Which deformed the ball the most? A crude, but applicable example.

 A shot cup/wad can only do so much to protect the shot and in the case of the .410, does little due to the fact there is no cushion built in to the wad. Even when loading shells for spring turkey, I stay with loads whkss pressures are 9,000 psi or less. I have not recovered any shot but have seen a dramatic difference, especially with the .410, both shooting clays and in the field. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just telling what worked for me. If you don't think it will work, then don't do it.

 
Quoted:
Use hard magnum shot, it deforms less, stays rounder. Magnum shot is lighter in weight per pellet. This lets more pellets in a given set amount of weight, like 3/4 oz   (28 ga).   When loading by volume, a skeet charge bar can be opened to drop  more pellets.  Or modify the shot bushing to drop the maximum weight.  A full 1/2 oz for the 410 is a big plus on the skeet field and legal. 

 To much choke may blow paterns.

 As said above " use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. 
 Very good advice here. I forgot to mention to use "magnum" shot only. I also use an adjustable shot bar in my press and set it to throw shot by weight, not volume.

  Too much choke definitely wrecks patterns and is generally not necessary when using good loads. My .410 is a SxS with long forcing cones and I had it threaded for chokes and use SKT/IC for skeet and IC/MOD for dove and quail.

 I found the best source for shotshell loads is the Lyman manual. I use the components listed for low pressure and match then exactly as listed.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:18:43 AM EDT
[#8]
Ballistic Products, they specialize in shotgun sports
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:40:20 AM EDT
[#9]
Only going to find out by patterning it.  You might look at an Improved modified choke also.

I tend to like higher pressure loads for a given velocity (still maintain a bit of margin on the SAAMI pressure to account for loading variables) - I believe you get better powder burn, especially on colder days.

I run 1300 fps on my .410,  1200 on everything else (target loads)   My loads pattern fine.

I do like Alliant 20/28 for the 28 gauge.  Hodgdon Universal is fine also but you can have fit problems in older versions of the AAHS hulls.  The first generation of the AAHS hull is something like 3/32" shorter than current hulls.  Fit up of components and getting a good crimp is difficult using AAHS wads and Universal powder.  I think I had to use an 11/16 oz shot bushing to get a crimp.

I use the Claybuster wad in the 28 gauge - seems to fit better and have less trouble with mangled wad pedals straight out of the bag.   Running wads through the dryer to straighten out the pedals is a PITA (I had a lot of trouble with winchester AAHS wads being deformed right out of the bag, Almost always had to run them through the clothes dyer to get them to straighten out)

I shoot mostly skeet in subgauges so I don't see problems with shot deformation.  I load almost exclusively re-dropped shot which has an unknown hardness.  Deformation wouldn't be affected by pressure anyway - it's usually caused by trying to cram a mass of shot through a constriction like the choke and will relate to velocity at that point.  Peak pressure occurs while the shot is still in the hull, actual pressure when the shot is at the choke is pretty low.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 6:13:59 PM EDT
[#10]
I am confused by something...

If birdshot was so deformed while traveling down the barrel...then reclaimed shot would never sell???

As a side note...I used to make my own birdshot from smelted wheelweights.  My contraption was a big piece of channel iron, a piece of angle iron, bolts and nuts from the hardware store, Twecco type wire welding tips, a broiler's electric heating element, and a 20mm ammo can filled with water...yes, just water.

I had a deal with a USPSA/IDPA match shooting buddy.  He worked as a mechanic at a Toyota dealership.  He would scrounge all the wheelweights that he could.  He would bring me 100 pounds of wheelweights at one match.  Then at the next match, I would bring him 50 pounds of my homemade and graphited birdshot.

EDIT:  getting back on topic...given the same wad, and same payload, if you increase the velocity, does that make the wad fall away sooner?

And in turn, would that make the pattern open up?
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 7:40:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Shot is deformed in the shell at the moment of firing .  The harder its launched, the more its deformed (not round). The higher the velocity, the higher the possibility of  deformation.

When the wad/shot reach the choke, it gets deformed more.  More in a full choke than in a skeet choke. 

To keep pellets  round for tighter  patterns, some things make a difference.
Magnum shot, copper plated lead shot,  plastic buffer added in with the shot, slow powders that push instead of shove. Larger shot sizes deform less.   These are just the shells. The gun is another whole story.

Years ago, before plastic shot buffer, flour was used  with copper plated #2  shot for geese.  The 3"  12 ga loads would put all pellets  into a  30" circle at 50 yards using a fixed full  choke barrel.  Most pellets were in a 18" circle.  Velocity was low, 1 1/2 oz of shot was light, not the normal 2 oz loading. 

Found out years later, flour is only for baking, not shotguns.  Moisture  getting into the flour made it grab  the barrel walls, increasing pressure to dangerous levels. 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:56:14 PM EDT
[#12]
I don't think copper plating or nickel plating does anything as far as shot deformation, at least not in the sense of acting like hardening.  The plating thickness is very small, it adds nothing to the effective hardness of the shot.

What plating does do is make the shot more 'slippery'  which may help with deformation as it won't bridge as easily going through a constriction like at the forcing cone and the choke.  I think the biggest advantage to plated shot is it's tendency to pull less feathers into a wound channel.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:01:08 PM EDT
[#13]
From the Lawrence website:

Copper Plated (Lawrence Brand)

>Copper Plated

>Wax Coated

>Retains more shot with less deformation in shorter strings at maximum velocity and penetration

>Uniformly superior patterns such as those required in long range hunting
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:09:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:14:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 6:49:32 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


Wrong, wrong, and more wrong.

If you don't have the needed speeds, then the pattern is going to hot spot center as you have it filling out for your given pattern size. This is the reason that you have to push 410 with 226gr to over 1300fps to get it to pattern correctly.
Note, the sts box of factory ammo that states is 1200, if actualy doing 1350fps isntead.  Wins 410 that states it 1200, is doing just over 1300fps as well.  

If you have too much speed , then the Patten is going to light center pattern when you get it to outer circle pattern correctly instead.

Since we are dealing with HS hulls and win 209 primers, really easy to come up with a winning load out of the shotgun in 28.
View Quote
Umm...LOTS of generalization going on here and way too many variables. There is no "correct" or "needed" speed to get a good pattern.

Where do you get that Winchester is falsifying their velocity numbers????
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 7:34:16 PM EDT
[#17]
I would think the velocity numbers Winchester and others put out would vary with barrel length.  

If they are using a slow burning powder, then you need a longer barrel to give the powder time to burn.

EDIT:  my one gun club sells reclaimed shot.  Next time I am there I will have to look to see how deformed it is.

EDIT#2:  and since we are so close to Granite City, IL, I think we get Lawrence shot directly.
Link Posted: 8/25/2017 12:05:18 AM EDT
[#18]
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