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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:11:47 PM EDT
Have you put it on a pattern board?
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:20:07 PM EDT
IMO, the pattern is decided by the barrel and choke, more powder/speed won't change that.
If we're talking clay birds here, it's strictly up to the shooter to break them. Some ammo may (due to speed or recoil) trick ones mind into thinking they need this or that ammo to shoot well but basically IMO, it's all basically the same. Shoot better. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:31:16 AM EDT
When I'm loading .410 and 20 ga., my #1 goal is to use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. So loading for my .410 has paid off in spades as it patterns beautifully and has done great for me shooting skeet, doves, and quail.
So if I were you, I'd try to keep pressures down. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:30:18 AM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
When I'm loading .410 and 20 ga., my #1 goal is to use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. So loading for my .410 has paid off in spades as it patterns beautifully and has done great for me shooting skeet, doves, and quail. So if I were you, I'd try to keep pressures down. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:45:17 AM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
Have you put it on a pattern board? With the more open choke (IC and CYL), the gun patterns very well, which works great for skeet. She may have to buy another full-choke tube it looks like. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:20:21 AM EDT
Use hard magnum shot, it deforms less, stays rounder. Magnum shot is lighter in weight per pellet. This lets more pellets in a given set amount of weight, like 3/4 oz (28 ga). When loading by volume, a skeet charge bar can be opened to drop more pellets. Or modify the shot bushing to drop the maximum weight. A full 1/2 oz for the 410 is a big plus on the skeet field and legal.
To much choke may blow paterns. As said above " use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:05:38 AM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
How is the shot seeing the pressure? Wad should seal/protect it, no? It may see more velocity at higher pressure but does a little more velocity make a difference? Have you recovered shot at both pressures to see difference? Interesting theory but I would need proof. Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is the shot seeing the pressure? Wad should seal/protect it, no? It may see more velocity at higher pressure but does a little more velocity make a difference? Have you recovered shot at both pressures to see difference? Interesting theory but I would need proof. A shot cup/wad can only do so much to protect the shot and in the case of the .410, does little due to the fact there is no cushion built in to the wad. Even when loading shells for spring turkey, I stay with loads whkss pressures are 9,000 psi or less. I have not recovered any shot but have seen a dramatic difference, especially with the .410, both shooting clays and in the field. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just telling what worked for me. If you don't think it will work, then don't do it. Quoted:
Use hard magnum shot, it deforms less, stays rounder. Magnum shot is lighter in weight per pellet. This lets more pellets in a given set amount of weight, like 3/4 oz (28 ga). When loading by volume, a skeet charge bar can be opened to drop more pellets. Or modify the shot bushing to drop the maximum weight. A full 1/2 oz for the 410 is a big plus on the skeet field and legal. To much choke may blow paterns. As said above " use as low pressure of a load as possible while still attaining a useful velocity. Less pressure = less deformed shot = better patterns. Too much choke definitely wrecks patterns and is generally not necessary when using good loads. My .410 is a SxS with long forcing cones and I had it threaded for chokes and use SKT/IC for skeet and IC/MOD for dove and quail. I found the best source for shotshell loads is the Lyman manual. I use the components listed for low pressure and match then exactly as listed. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:18:43 AM EDT
Ballistic Products, they specialize in shotgun sports
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:40:20 AM EDT
Only going to find out by patterning it. You might look at an Improved modified choke also.
I tend to like higher pressure loads for a given velocity (still maintain a bit of margin on the SAAMI pressure to account for loading variables) - I believe you get better powder burn, especially on colder days. I run 1300 fps on my .410, 1200 on everything else (target loads) My loads pattern fine. I do like Alliant 20/28 for the 28 gauge. Hodgdon Universal is fine also but you can have fit problems in older versions of the AAHS hulls. The first generation of the AAHS hull is something like 3/32" shorter than current hulls. Fit up of components and getting a good crimp is difficult using AAHS wads and Universal powder. I think I had to use an 11/16 oz shot bushing to get a crimp. I use the Claybuster wad in the 28 gauge - seems to fit better and have less trouble with mangled wad pedals straight out of the bag. Running wads through the dryer to straighten out the pedals is a PITA (I had a lot of trouble with winchester AAHS wads being deformed right out of the bag, Almost always had to run them through the clothes dyer to get them to straighten out) I shoot mostly skeet in subgauges so I don't see problems with shot deformation. I load almost exclusively re-dropped shot which has an unknown hardness. Deformation wouldn't be affected by pressure anyway - it's usually caused by trying to cram a mass of shot through a constriction like the choke and will relate to velocity at that point. Peak pressure occurs while the shot is still in the hull, actual pressure when the shot is at the choke is pretty low. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 6:13:59 PM EDT
I am confused by something...
If birdshot was so deformed while traveling down the barrel...then reclaimed shot would never sell??? As a side note...I used to make my own birdshot from smelted wheelweights. My contraption was a big piece of channel iron, a piece of angle iron, bolts and nuts from the hardware store, Twecco type wire welding tips, a broiler's electric heating element, and a 20mm ammo can filled with water...yes, just water. I had a deal with a USPSA/IDPA match shooting buddy. He worked as a mechanic at a Toyota dealership. He would scrounge all the wheelweights that he could. He would bring me 100 pounds of wheelweights at one match. Then at the next match, I would bring him 50 pounds of my homemade and graphited birdshot. EDIT: getting back on topic...given the same wad, and same payload, if you increase the velocity, does that make the wad fall away sooner? And in turn, would that make the pattern open up? |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 7:40:07 PM EDT
Shot is deformed in the shell at the moment of firing . The harder its launched, the more its deformed (not round). The higher the velocity, the higher the possibility of deformation.
When the wad/shot reach the choke, it gets deformed more. More in a full choke than in a skeet choke. To keep pellets round for tighter patterns, some things make a difference. Magnum shot, copper plated lead shot, plastic buffer added in with the shot, slow powders that push instead of shove. Larger shot sizes deform less. These are just the shells. The gun is another whole story. Years ago, before plastic shot buffer, flour was used with copper plated #2 shot for geese. The 3" 12 ga loads would put all pellets into a 30" circle at 50 yards using a fixed full choke barrel. Most pellets were in a 18" circle. Velocity was low, 1 1/2 oz of shot was light, not the normal 2 oz loading. Found out years later, flour is only for baking, not shotguns. Moisture getting into the flour made it grab the barrel walls, increasing pressure to dangerous levels. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:56:14 PM EDT
I don't think copper plating or nickel plating does anything as far as shot deformation, at least not in the sense of acting like hardening. The plating thickness is very small, it adds nothing to the effective hardness of the shot.
What plating does do is make the shot more 'slippery' which may help with deformation as it won't bridge as easily going through a constriction like at the forcing cone and the choke. I think the biggest advantage to plated shot is it's tendency to pull less feathers into a wound channel. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:01:08 PM EDT
From the Lawrence website:
Copper Plated (Lawrence Brand) >Copper Plated >Wax Coated >Retains more shot with less deformation in shorter strings at maximum velocity and penetration >Uniformly superior patterns such as those required in long range hunting |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:09:53 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
IMO, the pattern is decided by the barrel and choke, more powder/speed won't change that. If you don't have the needed speeds, then the pattern is going to hot spot center as you have it filling out for your given pattern size. This is the reason that you have to push 410 with 226gr to over 1300fps to get it to pattern correctly. Note, the sts box of factory ammo that states is 1200, if actualy doing 1350fps isntead. Wins 410 that states it 1200, is doing just over 1300fps as well. If you have too much speed , then the Patten is going to light center pattern when you get it to outer circle pattern correctly instead. Since we are dealing with HS hulls and win 209 primers, really easy to come up with a winning load out of the shotgun in 28. Powder is universal clays, ream your shot bushing so it will drop 336gr (338gr is max limits for NSSA/NSCA) on the money, and the wad is the CB CB5034-28HS (dark red, and not the pink one). Start the load with 14gr of universal (1140psi) and start increasing the amount of powder until the load chrono's at 1240fps out of her shotgun (will hit it before you make 1200psi). Once you have the speed correct, then go pattern the gun to come up with the needed choke restriction in the ranges she will be breaking targets to end up with a clean pattern, and no holes in it that you can drive a mac truck through. Forget all about what you think the outer circle should be, but instead use the chokes that she has that it will put down a patten with enough pellets in the give circle during a target strike that it will cleanly break the target. Hence take a target with you to the patterning board, and make sure that when you put a target anywhere in the shot pattern on the board, you have at least 15 pellets that would strike the target. Hence from center of pattern, to the outer fringes, you have a uniform filled out pattern of shot. If you want to use 20/28 isntead, have come up with some good 28 gauge loads on the same basis (hit the 1240fps mark), but fell short in 20g compared to my loads using universal isntead (1220fps in the 20 gauge, and why I have stuck to universal). |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:14:21 PM EDT
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Posted: 8/23/2017 6:49:32 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
Wrong, wrong, and more wrong. If you don't have the needed speeds, then the pattern is going to hot spot center as you have it filling out for your given pattern size. This is the reason that you have to push 410 with 226gr to over 1300fps to get it to pattern correctly. Note, the sts box of factory ammo that states is 1200, if actualy doing 1350fps isntead. Wins 410 that states it 1200, is doing just over 1300fps as well. If you have too much speed , then the Patten is going to light center pattern when you get it to outer circle pattern correctly instead. Since we are dealing with HS hulls and win 209 primers, really easy to come up with a winning load out of the shotgun in 28. Where do you get that Winchester is falsifying their velocity numbers???? |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 7:34:16 PM EDT
I would think the velocity numbers Winchester and others put out would vary with barrel length.
If they are using a slow burning powder, then you need a longer barrel to give the powder time to burn. EDIT: my one gun club sells reclaimed shot. Next time I am there I will have to look to see how deformed it is. EDIT#2: and since we are so close to Granite City, IL, I think we get Lawrence shot directly. |
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Posted: 8/25/2017 12:05:18 AM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
Umm...LOTS of generalization going on here and way too many variables. There is no "correct" or "needed" speed to get a good pattern. Where do you get that Winchester is falsifying their velocity numbers???? Then load up some 1200fps loads NSSA factor loads in 410 at 1200fps, and put them on the patterning board at skeet target ranges. You can loosen up the choke all you want, but it not going to resolve the long shot column in the narrow wad from not hot spot centering: until you increase the speeds to get to the long shot column to unify instead. |
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