Push pin receivers?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Push pin receivers?

Posted: 2/15/2006 7:37:57 PM EDT

So why are push pin lower receivers on an Hk94/MP5 clone against the law?

Posted: 2/15/2006 8:09:15 PM EDT

[#1]

I assume you mean the upper receiver, or receiver. They are considered machine gun receivers by the ATF. Some were converted legally before the MG ban of 1986. They cost about $14000 to $15000.

Posted: 2/15/2006 9:52:56 PM EDT

[#2]

It is because you can install a full auto trigger pack and have a full auto weapon with this type of receiver. So if you have a push pin receiver that operates semi auto only, you still in the ATF’s infinite wisdom have a machine gun. Yes a machine gun can be a semi auto rifle. If you are going to be around these types of guns, you need to brush up on all of this. You do not want to break any of these laws, the consequences are just to serious.

Posted: 2/16/2006 12:30:06 AM EDT

[#3]

The Mechanics of the Heckler & Koch NFA Conversions

Posted: 2/16/2006 1:44:07 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
So why are push pin lower receivers on an Hk94/MP5 clone against the law?

It seems like you are asking a different question than is being answered. Push-pin lower receivers will not fit on HK94/MP5 clones by design. Semi-auto lowers designed to fit semi-auto receivers are actually clipped into place at the front rather than having a pin hole like an MG lower. That push-pin hole in an HK receiver is the defining legal characteristic of an MG receiver.

While the MG (push-pin) lower itself will not fit and hence will not convert a semi-auto HK into full-auto directly, ATF has held the position that the presence of both a semi-auto receiver AND certain full-auto fire control parts (all of which are in a push-pin lower) is considered a machine gun using the "conversion parts" clause. Having both of these also shows claer legal "Intent" to convert the gun.

The same goes for a semi-auto AR and M-16 parts.

Posted: 2/16/2006 1:57:41 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
It is because you can install a full auto trigger pack and have a full auto weapon with this type of receiver. So if you have a push pin receiver that operates semi auto only, you still in the ATF’s infinite wisdom have a machine gun. Yes a machine gun can be a semi auto rifle. If you are going to be around these types of guns, you need to brush up on all of this. You do not want to break any of these laws, the consequences are just to serious.

Thanks guys, that cleared up a lot for me. Even so, it's SO hard to understand the ATF's logic!!??!! I'm beginning to see more and more each day how FUBARED their decision making skills are!

One more question, I wasn't sure if I read this right....

If I have a gun built from a kit, it's fine to have a newer ambi lower as long as it's clipped and pinned...you just can't have a registered (MG) receiver and switch it to a newer lower because it's not the original lower parts(sear)?

I may be really wrong on this...so take it easy on me...

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:01:01 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

If I have a gun built from a kit, it's fine to have a newer ambi lower as long as it's clipped and pinned...you just can't have a registered (MG) receiver and switch it to a newer lower because it's not the original lower parts(sear)?

Very confusing question. Not sure what you're asking.

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:06:28 PM EDT

[#7]

ok...if I have an original HK kit that's been demilled and a SW receiver and an ambi navy lower...can it be built into a legal semi????

The previous question came from reading the last few paragraphs from the link posted above by osprey21.

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:18:05 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

One more question, I wasn't sure if I read this right....

If I have a gun built from a kit, it's fine to have a newer ambi lower as long as it's clipped and pinned...you just can't have a registered (MG) receiver and switch it to a newer lower because it's not the original lower parts(sear)?

You can use any factory machine gun lower on your HK94/MP5 clone as long as it's been modified to the SEMI AUTO ONLY configuration, which would include "clipping" the housing to accept the shelf on the host gun.

A registered receiver push pin HK machine gun can LEGALLY use ANY factory machine gun lower that's on the market today.

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:18:36 PM EDT

[#9]

yes, you will need to modify the trigger pack to operate in semi-auto only.

This is accomplished by cutting out the old sear pin hole, drilling a new one and placing a stop in the frame to limit trigger travel. Since US trigger parts are often used, I have only seen S/A parts for those.

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:27:02 PM EDT

[#10]

Ok...I think that answered my question. I just got worried there for a minute that I'd spent a good amount of money on something that wasn't going to me doable. And I can have it built with all my original parts as long as the receiver was registered as a pistol and I have it built tas a pistol(with the clipped and pinned lower/triggerpack)? Then i can do a SBR on a form 1, right?

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:39:49 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Ok...I think that answered my question. I just got worried there for a minute that I'd spent a good amount of money on something that wasn't going to me doable. And I can have it built with all my original parts as long as the receiver was registered as a pistol and I have it built tas a pistol(with the clipped and pinned lower/triggerpack)? Then i can do a SBR on a form 1, right?

If it's a bare receiver, then sure, you can create a pistol out of it. But it doesn't need to start as a pistol in order to do an SBR. If you want an SBR, then go ahead and start that paperwork now and build it into an SBR when the Form 1 is approved. Sounds like you are confusing it with an AOW. An AOW would have to start as a pistol or a bare receiver.

What is it you want to end up with? MP5-look or MP5K-look?

Posted: 2/16/2006 2:43:35 PM EDT

[#12]

I was told that by building as a pistol that it could contain all the original HK parts and I wouldn't have to worry about the parts count. Building it as a pistol would allow me to have some fun with it while I wait on the form 1.

oh...an mp5 is the desired outcome.

Posted: 2/16/2006 3:42:12 PM EDT

[#13]

Ah, I see where you're going with this.

Sure, 922r does not apply to pistols so, yes, you can build that into a pistol to avoid 922r violations. 922r also does not apply to NFA weapons, as it seems you already know, so once the Form 1 approves, you're good to go.

But along the lines of what we've been talking about, make sure you don't have the original buttstock anywhere in your household (or with the gun itself). Until the Form 1 is approved, you'd be in danger of an SBR beef.

Posted: 2/16/2006 4:25:56 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Ah, I see where you're going with this.

Sure, 922r does not apply to pistols so, yes, you can build that into a pistol to avoid 922r violations. 922r also does not apply to NFA weapons, as it seems you already know, so once the Form 1 approves, you're good to go.

But along the lines of what we've been talking about, make sure you don't have the original buttstock anywhere in your household (or with the gun itself). Until the Form 1 is approved, you'd be in danger of an SBR beef.

Cool...I think that about answers EVERYTHING! I guess I'll be sending the buttstock to a friend's house till the paperwork comes back! Thanks so much to all that contributed.

If anyone sees anything/info that might have been missed then please continue to chip in your .02!

Posted: 2/18/2006 5:32:16 PM EDT

[#15]

This is a question that has boggled me as well. Why is an HK9x pushpin receiver considered a machinegun but not an AR15 receiver? Both uppers would be able to accept a full auto lower.

I'm guessing it has something to do with serial number placement.

Posted: 2/18/2006 9:31:16 PM EDT

[#16]

A HK with a swing lower (no shelf, just the pivot hole) would allow full auto fire as easy as plug and play. You would install a standard full auto trigger pack/housing, if needed just install a Full auto carrier if the one you have has been neutered (auto sear tab ground down). The semi’s shelf is what prevent a full auto pack from just dropping in.
Note: modifying a full auto pack to just drop in a shelf receiver is also creating a MG.

On the AR-15, the hole is question is the auto sear hole, and it alone dictates if the receiver is a full auto or semi receiver.

Posted: 2/19/2006 12:33:49 AM EDT

[#17]

you cant be trusted, official Govt regs....

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Push pin receivers?

Armory » Heckler & Koch

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