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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 6/19/2002 5:45:35 PM EST
I've always thought extrememly highly of Armalite's products, until today.

I have been selling firearms for the last 15 years,and I've never seen this. At my shop we sell both Colt and Armalite/Eagle Arms AR's, and I've actually seen better quality control on the Armalites than I have the recent Colts.

Last week I sold a man an Eagle Arms M15A4 rifle. He's familiar with the AR system, and also owns a Daewoo Max-1. Well, today he brought the rifle back because it wasn't feeding. Yes, he was using GI mags. Yes, the rifle was clean, and yes he was using good ammo (Win. Q3131A). He had already called Armalite and they said that the rifle "WOULD NOT FEED WITH MILITARY MAGAZINES". Only the factory provided 10 rounder was guaranteed to function.

I tried dry feeding from 5 different USGI mags, 4 30rd's and 1 20rd. Out of the 4 30's, two would feed until the last 4 rounds, then stop feeding, and two would not even chamber the first round. The 20 rounder wouldn't feed the first round either. The only magazines that seemed to function halfway decently were some reconditioned Orlites we had.

What made it even "worse", was that I took a brand new Armalite M15A4 carbine off the rack and tried the same thing. Same results.

I've never, ever run into this, and up until this point I've been very high on Armalites. The factory tech at Armalite told my customer that the Armalites and Eagle Arms would not feed from USGI mags, and that they offered specially modified GI 20 rounders for $80.00.

Now, I've used Armalites up until this point with GI mags with NO problems, but all of a sudden two rifles will not funciton at all with them. The factory 10 round steel magazines have noticeably different feed lips compared to a GI mag.

Now, I need to know, has anyone else had this problem? If so, let me know, as I've never, ever heard of a factory AR that was designed not to work with GI mags.

I tried calling Armalite today, but they were closed when I tried reaching them, so I'll have to try tomorrow.

Any other experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 6:17:52 PM EST
Bullshit,

What is the name of your shop? I want to stop by and have you show me this phenomenon. Your customer clearly is confusing AR-10 mags with AR-15 mags.

My question is:

Why are you spreading bullshit?
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 6:28:31 PM EST
First I hear the wild rumor that new Mini 14's will not accept high cap mags....now this. If this one turns out to be true, looks like Armalite will fall to the bottom of my list. Which I am a Bushmaster fan anyway, so I could really care less what Armalite builds.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 6:43:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
First I hear the wild rumor that new Mini 14's will not accept high cap mags....now this. If this one turns out to be true, looks like Armalite will fall to the bottom of my list. Which I am a Bushmaster fan anyway, so I could really care less what Armalite builds.

Well, the Ruger mag well rumor was false, so........
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 7:01:57 PM EST
You are right Larry, it was bogus. And I also take back what I said about Armalite. I care about all gun companies and the products they build. I would be lying if I said I didn't. I just honestly can't see Armalite changing their rifles to accept a different $80 mag. Nobody could be that dumb. People buy AR's because of hi-cap mags, no other reason. If I wanted a 10 round only rifle, hell, I would just buy a Remington 7400 and get a bunch of 10 rounders for it! It would be a lot cheaper and we all know 30-06 packs much more punch. The AR has that fun factor of loading up and shooting without having to reload every few seconds. That's why it is so popular. So I just can't see any company making such a foolish move, as it would obviously destroy their business. Maybe this was some special model weapon or something. I just can't imagine Armalite changing their entire line of rifles. What reason would they have to do so?

Also, can the Armalite M15 rifles be bought without the green furniture? If so, I may try one someday.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 7:06:22 PM EST


nuff said!

Time to got hunting.


Link Posted: 6/19/2002 7:13:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2002 7:16:04 PM EST by Lazyshooter]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:


Also, can the Armalite M15 rifles be bought without the green furniture? If so, I may try one someday.


Yes you can get black furniture right out of the box. When you're at your dealer and he makes the call to his distributor for current stock, the furniture color you want is one of the questions they will ask you.

Get one of their camo ones if you can find one.
They are really cool looking.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 7:23:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
. I just honestly can't see Armalite changing their rifles to accept a different $80 mag. Nobody could be that dumb.

This 20 round, $80 mag he refers to is the AR10 mag, not the M15 mag. As QCMGR noted, the customer has obviously confused the two, if this is a valid story to begin with. True, the AR10 will not accept USGI mags. In the case of the AR10 that would be M14 mags which are 20 round mags and have to be modified to work in the AR10, since there were no preban AR10s, except the very early originals. Those are the $80 mags. The M15 does accept USGI M16 mags and works fine with them. I have two ArmaLite postbans, had an Eagle Arms postban (sold it to a friend to get one of the ArmaLites) and several Eagle Arms prebans and this story sounds too preposterous to be true.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 7:40:40 PM EST
Before all you guys start a lynch mob, why don't you read my entire post. I've been selling firearms, military styled semi-autos for the most part, and been an avid collector and shooter of the same for the last 15 years. I know what I'm talking about and I'm not just spreading bullshit. I know the difference between an AR-10 and a M15.

If I hadn't seen it for myself, I wouldn't have believed it. I tried 4 GI mags, two of which would feed until the last 3 or 4 rounds, and then stop, and one that wouldn't feed at all. The 20 rounder was a Adventure Line and it wouldn't feed at all either.

This was using not only his Eagle Arms M15A4 rifle but an Armalite M15A4 Carbine that I pulled of fthe rack to see if it was a fluke.

As to what Armalite said, all I have to go on is what my customer said, and I don't have any reason to doubt him. It was about 5:15 pm EST when he came by, and there was no response to my attempt to call Armalite to see if what they told him jibed with what he told me they told him. He told me that the tech guy told him that the Armalite and Eagle rifles were built to much tighter tolerances than the Colts and would not operate reliably with GI magazines. My first response to that was "bullshit", as I've never heard that one before either.

If you would read my post in it's entirity, you'll also see that I said I've never had this problem nor ever expected it, and I was looking for anyone with similar experiences.

QCMGR, and anyone else interested, I work at DeGoff's Firearms, in Mechanicsville VA and our phone # is 804-746-0273 if you have any questions. Ask for Tim (me). We're open M-F from 10am to 8pm and Sat. 9-6.

All that I ask is that you at least start out politely on the phone before you start calling me a liar.

I'm deeply troubled by this and want any other input as to similar experiences. If it just happened to one rifle, I'd put it down to a lemon getting out of the factory, but when I pulled the new one off the rack, and it gave IDENTICAL problems, I knew it wasn't a fluke.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 8:35:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2002 8:37:32 PM EST by QCMGR]
Templar,

My thought is to check with ArmaLite before posting (Your post sounds inflammatory). I did not call you a liar. My initial thought was troll, but you seem to be adamant. I work in Quality and have had the opportunity to review most of the AR-15 style weapons from the larger manufactures Colt, ArmaLite, Bushmaster etc. and ArmaLite runs closer to the mean than the rest.

Clearly the customer is confused over the magazine's. His story makes sense when considering the AR-10.

I just find it hard to belive that ArmaLite could make something so far out of spec that it would not function. I'm my experience with FTF, if the failure occurs during the the last few rounds, it is a magazine issue. If it will feed out of one but not at all out of another, again, magazine failure.

Understanding the manufacturing process and how machines are built the true test would be to live fire from a proven GI spec. mags.

It is difficult dealing with a disappointed customer, but ArmaLite will do what it takes to make it right.
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 9:01:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2002 9:06:33 PM EST by Charging_Handle]
Templar,

You seem genuine and sincere in your explanation, but I still don't think this is a problem with the rifle. In fact, the problem you are describing sounds more like a problem with the mags than the rifle. For instance, the two that fed fine until the last 3 or 4 rounds sounds just like 30 rounders with the older black followers. That was a common problem with those and why the military switched to the green followers in the early 1990's. The black followers would sometimes tilt downward at the front a bit, allowing the bolt to slide over the rounds and not strip one from the mag. This nearly always happened with the last few rounds in the mag. Sometimes they also had trouble when a full 30 rounds were loaded.....I think it was the 28th round that gave all the problems. The green followers have an extension on the front that prevents this from happening. I bet with these installed that both mags would work flawlessly in those rifles.

As for the ones that didn't feed, sounds like they are either damaged or completely worn out. Many of these surplus mags are in very bad condition. Check the feed lips for cracks or dents and any other damage. Perhaps the lips are bent badly. Also check the springs. Some of these may have been mistreated and have springs so weak they can't feed.

Think of it this way....if two of the mags worked in the rifles, there is no reason the others shouldn't work unless they are deformed or damaged. They are all identical.....except for wear and tear. And the "tighter tolerances" thing you mentioned just doesn't make any sense either. I have a fully customized and tricked out race 1911 type, with much tighter tolerances than the standard 1911. But the same mags work equally well in either! Their are AR race guns too....look at the Les Baers....those are probably built to very tight tolerances. Yet they accept GI mags.

Before you condemn your rifles, check out some mags other than those you have. Surely someone will have a decent mag you can try. If it works, take your 30 rounders and replace the black follower with a mil-spec green one available for about a buck at Costa Arms or R Guns. Also replace the springs with some Wolff springs from Georgia Precision. And then they should work without a hitch unless the mag body or feed lips are dented or bent badly. If so, discard and order some from ammoman!
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 10:16:29 PM EST
Knowing and having dealt with the people of ArmaLite, I find this a little outlandish. In fact, since you claim to be a dealer, I would go as far as to say you were unprofessional and out of line for posting something like this on an internet message board rather than take it up directly with ArmaLite. Exactly what are you hoping to accomplish?
Link Posted: 6/19/2002 11:24:33 PM EST
Did you try the magazines in a Colt?

This does sound like a magazine related problem.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 4:10:33 AM EST
I was hoping to find out if anyone else had had these problems and if anyone else had been told this BS by Armalite.

That's it, no other hidden agenda.

I've sold many other Armalites and never seen this problem. I am extrmeley concerned given the fact that two rifles experienced the exact same problems.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 4:11:53 AM EST
I'll never buy another Armalite... I'll stick with my preban Colts...

The Armalite I got wouldn't function (extraction problem). It also had a gas key that wasn't staked at the factory prior to being shipped out... I sent it back for repairs. A month later I get the rifle and the service ticket states "gas leak, restake key". Well, there was no gas leak, there was a chamber problem. Additionally the gas key STILL wasn't staked!!!! I take it to the range, same problem.

Back to Armalite it goes. Their tech tells me it's a tight chamber and a few rifles were shipped out this way but they will fix it. Another month goes by, I get the rifle, this time the gas key IS actually staked and the rifle functioned.

So, it had an out of spec chamber but the rifle was still shipped/sold. The gas key wasn't staked when the rifle was shipped/sold or returned for repair (even though the service ticket stated it was). Not great QC or repair service. Unfortunate because it was the nicest AR as far as fit/finish that I have ever seen...
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 5:50:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/20/2002 5:52:19 AM EST by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By Templar:
..... and if anyone else had been told this BS by Armalite.

My point exactly. Why is it BS? Sounds inflammatory.

Link Posted: 6/20/2002 6:03:45 AM EST
Jeez you guys, I am sure Mr. Westrom is glad he has a team of pit bulls ready to jump on anyone who has a problem with his rifles.

Give this guy Templar a break. It is OBVIOUS this is not a confusion between the 10 mag and the 15 mag since the 10 mag won't even go into the 15 to begin with. Jeez. I am surprised at how much people read into posts, quite wrongly.

I have a 10 and it historically has had extraction problems, including AFTER a trip back to ArmaLite. But I still like it.

Templar, good luck with your problem and let us know what ArmaLite says when you finally do discuss this with them.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 6:13:47 AM EST
I doubt its a feed problem. It is probably short recoiling due to the fact that Winchester ammo sucks. I had to learn that the hard way also. A new gun w/ The winchester white box stuff is almost guaranteed to not work. Try UMC or American Eagle. It is just as cheap and it cycles just nicely...especially after the gun is broken in.

My $.02
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 6:22:40 AM EST
That was really stupid of me, I should have read the rest of the problem...I just saw "new", "problem" and "winchester" in the same paragraph and jumped to a conclusion way too fast...Sorry.

Does sound like a mag problem, but I ask you this. How much of an Armalite is ACTUALLY MADE by Armalite, on their property?
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 6:48:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/20/2002 6:59:58 AM EST by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
Give this guy Templar a break. It is OBVIOUS this is not a confusion between the 10 mag and the 15 mag since the 10 mag won't even go into the 15 to begin with.

NO, it is OBVIOUS that it IS confusion on the customer's part when he talked to ArmaLite. The $80 20 round mags fits exactly the deal on AR10s and USGI, in the case of AR10s that would be M14 USGI, mags won't work in an AR10. Maybe the customer wasn't clear when he called ArmaLite and that is where the confusion comes in.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 7:03:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/20/2002 7:07:04 AM EST by QCMGR]

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
Give this guy Templar a break. It is OBVIOUS this is not a confusion between the 10 mag and the 15 mag since the 10 mag won't even go into the 15 to begin with. Jeez. I am surprised at how much people read into posts, quite wrongly.



Read the whole post, it is his customer that is confused about the magazines. He is confused over the pre-post / special magazine issue. (In particular this line gives it away "Armalites and Eagle Arms would not feed from USGI mags, and that they offered specially modified GI 20 rounders for $80.00")

Applied to the M-15 it is nonsensical.

Templar still needs to utilize better root cause analysis techniques before posting on the Internet.


Link Posted: 6/20/2002 8:34:16 AM EST
My new Armalite carbine that I purchased last fall won't work with my Thermold magazines. It works just fine with my aluminum USA mags but nobody likes them. I haven't tried any GI mags in it yet. My Colt AR (about three years old) will work with any mag I've tried in it.

My new (old) SP-1 seems to work with any mag but I'm having some FTE problems that I haven't determined the cause of yet.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 9:00:07 AM EST
I think everyone should take a step back and wait to see what Armalite has to say about this issue. I'm positive there's a logical answer to this.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 10:22:03 AM EST
I'd be interested to hear what Armalite says... Someone here is way confused...
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 10:38:11 AM EST
I have an M15 that is one year old. I have 21 USGI mags of varied MFG and condition.
Some are 20's some are 30's some are practically new and some are almost worn out.
My gun just doesnt care. It hasnt given me any problems since day one.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 11:15:31 AM EST
There is the possibility that the mag catch is screwed in too tight, you might push the mag release button, and un-screw the other side once or twice, and see if that colves the problem.

But wow, hate to say something un-popular here.

WL
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 12:25:25 PM EST

Need more info about the exact nature of the malfunction.

Historically, Armalite has had problems with Failures to extract because of tight .223 chambers & improper gas port size.

Link Posted: 6/20/2002 12:48:58 PM EST

Historically, Armalite has had problems with Failures to extract because of tight .223 chambers & improper gas port size.

Historically, this has proven to be nothing but an urban legend.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 1:37:34 PM EST
Come on Jim! I personally have an AR10 and personally have had extraction problems. And I still have them, although to a much lesser extent, after getting the rifle back from ArmaLite. I don't know what causes it, although "tight chamber" and "gas port size" are two possible culprits.

If extraction problem are an "nothing but an urban legend," please make mine go away like the alligators in the NYC sewer system!
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 1:49:54 PM EST

Come on Jim! I personally have an AR10 and personally have had extraction problems. And I still have them, although to a much lesser extent, after getting the rifle back from ArmaLite. I don't know what causes it, although "tight chamber" and "gas port size" are two possible culprits.

If extraction problem are an "nothing but an urban legend," please make mine go away like the alligators in the NYC sewer system!


You're in Arizona, aren't you? Maybe yours is an ASA rifle. If so, my prayers are with you.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 3:31:11 PM EST
AR15Fan... you're right and wrong.I gave Armalite hell while waiting for my AR-10.I said how can you produce a military rifle that won't shoot military ammo.I went on a about match chambers etc...etc...They told me only on the TARGET models are chambered tight.The rifles with chromed lined bores have a milspec chamber!
My AR-10A2 goes bang everytime the trigger is pulled...period.All I have given it is milsurp ammo.So it is an urban legend to a certain extent.
It does make me wonder how some keep sending their 10s back and keep having ftes.I wonder what the problem is.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 4:05:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ghostface:
AR15Fan... you're right and wrong.I gave Armalite hell while waiting for my AR-10.I said how can you produce a military rifle that won't shoot military ammo.I went on a about match chambers etc...etc...They told me only on the TARGET models are chambered tight.The rifles with chromed lined bores have a milspec chamber!
My AR-10A2 goes bang everytime the trigger is pulled...period.All I have given it is milsurp ammo.So it is an urban legend to a certain extent.
It does make me wonder how some keep sending their 10s back and keep having ftes.I wonder what the problem is.



Your AR-10A2 has a tight .223 chamber????
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 4:06:14 PM EST
Ok, I called Armalite today and spoke with Tim in the tech section. He was very polite and helpful, and cleared some things up.

Firstly, my customer did not apparently represent to Armalite exactly what was going on, and neither did he represent exactly what Armalite told him to me either.

What was going on were failures to feed from a multitude of magazines, all USGI. The round would get stuck on the feed ramp and either nose dive or just stop dead cold. The magazines that I could get to dry feed (2) would allow the bolt to ride over the shells for the last five rounds or so. I suspected that the springs may be weak, but they functioned fine in both his Daewoo MAX 1 and a Colt H-Bar II in the shop. They displayed the same problems with an Armalite M15A4 Carbine that I had on the rack right next to the Colt. That's what was getting me a little freaked out.

I took some of my personal magazines to the shop today to try a run through the Amralite that we have. One was a La Belle (black follower) that was NIW and the other was an American Thermold that I've never had anything but good luck with in my Colt. BOTH magazines dry fed 30 rounds flawlessly through the Armalite. Aparently, at least with the Armalite I have in the shop, it was simply a question of very new/high quality springs in the magazines. I haven't had a chance to try it in the customer's Eagle Arms yet.

What started this whole thing was him calling Armalite and they reportedly telling him that Armalites and Eagle Arms rifles SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO FUNCTION WITH USGI MAGAZINES. I had never, ever heard of anything like that, and I couldn't contact Armalite before they apparently had closed. I posted this because I was very curious if anyone had ever heard anything like this either. I'm very much pro-Armalite in the shop, and believe they make one of the best AR rifles available, and it really pissed me off when I had two rifles that wouldn't feed with otherwise reliable magazines. If I tell someone that they will be happy with this rifle, I'm putting my reputation out there, and I really felt that if what they had told my customer was true then Armalite had let me down.

Link Posted: 6/20/2002 4:07:16 PM EST
Continued........


Now this is what Tim and I discussed today. He flatly stated that not all GI magazines will work with Armalite products. What he said was the Armalites and Eagles have tighter tolerances than Colts and Bushmasters and that certain magazines may or may not function. They need very high quality GI magazines, and spring tension must be very good. Thermolds and Orlites may or may not function, that is more of an individual case by case situation. I do know that one of my customers, and a good friend to boot, can't use Thermolds in his rifle, but it loves Orlites. You can call Tim or Rick at Armalite at 309-944-6939 if you have any questions.

I guess I can kind of live with this, but I'd never before experienced problems with Armalites not feeding from GI magazines.

As I've said before, if I hadn't seen it and attempted to get these two rifles to dry feed, I wouldn't have believed it either. I appreciate all the guys who have tried to help out here. I do kind of wonder why it was such a taboo thing to mention problems with these things and ask for input and other personal experience.

Bottom line, I didn't get the whole/clearest information from my customer, but at the time it certainly seemed to jibe with what I was seeing right in front of me. What I was looking for by posting here were other people's personal experiences, to see if anyone else had ever heard of this so that I could have some more info to ask Armalite about today and help my customer out.

Thanks again.
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 5:32:28 PM EST
Templar,
I've been following this thread although I've not posted until now. I thought you were a troll !!
Turns out you were a guy taking care of his customer and that stance must always be applauded !! Turned out to be a very informative thread.
Finally, my thanks for your last summary post. Too often we're left out here without knowing the resolution to a problem.

Tom
Link Posted: 6/20/2002 5:50:44 PM EST
Templar,

You cleared up your post now and it is more understandable in what we you were getting at in the original post.
It was the latter part of the post that made it sound like you were trolling. Just becareful about posting in here. A lot of guys don't take kindly to a troll.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 3:03:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Templar:
Continued........

.....Armalites and Eagles have tighter tolerances than Colts and Bushmasters and that certain magazines may or may not function.



Interesting...."tighter tolerances" than what is intended by a particular design is not, by itself a good thing. I would think that if a rifle was manufactured to tighter tolerances than required by the prints it should actually function with a wider range of components, not a narrower range of them....
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 3:30:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By ECS:

Interesting...."tighter tolerances" than what is intended by a particular design is not, by itself a good thing. I would think that if a rifle was manufactured to tighter tolerances than required by the prints it should actually function with a wider range of components, not a narrower range of them....



ECS,
I believe your point would be valid only if all component and accessory (in this case magazine)manufacturers adhered to the same tighter tolerances. Unfortunately, in the real world of manufacturing some manufacturers adhere closer to the original specs than others. Generally speaking, it is less expensive to manufacture items with loose tolerances as compared to manufacturing to tight tolerances.

ArmaLite made a decision to manufacture within tight tolerances. Most accessories will work but some that were manufactured with looser tolerances may or may not function correctly. Most all GI manufacturer mags will work fine.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 4:54:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Historically, Armalite has had problems with Failures to extract because of tight .223 chambers & improper gas port size.

Historically, this has proven to be nothing but an urban legend.



Urban legend my ass... Armalite service told me, their mouth to my ear thru the phone, that a number of rifles were shipped with chambers that were "way too tight".
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 5:06:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By ECS:
Interesting...."tighter tolerances" than what is intended by a particular design is not, by itself a good thing. I would think that if a rifle was manufactured to tighter tolerances than required by the prints it should actually function with a wider range of components, not a narrower range of them....




What school of manufacturing did you go to? Building to a tighter tolerance i.e. 4 sigma vs 3 sigma yields a product that is built closer to the mean with less variance from the mean. As ArmaLite stated the key is "They need very high quality GI magazines, and spring tension must be very good." As long as the product is near nominal you have a better chance statistically of being able to use a wider variety of mating components. the problem arises for example; when a particular type of magazine tends to be oversized. This is where your problem manifest.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 5:08:56 AM EST

Urban legend my ass... Armalite service told me, their mouth to my ear thru the phone, that a number of rifles were shipped with chambers that were "way too tight".

Then your "ass" needs to show some kind of bona fide proof to back it up.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 6:57:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/21/2002 6:59:47 AM EST by vicg1]

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Urban legend my ass... Armalite service told me, their mouth to my ear thru the phone, that a number of rifles were shipped with chambers that were "way too tight".

Then your "ass" needs to show some kind of bona fide proof to back it up.



I think you're under some mistaken impression... I don't need to prove shit to you. If you're curious about the issue simply call Armalite service, ask for Steve (he usually answers the phone anyway in the service area) and ask him if there was a problem with tight chambers in their rifles. Otherwise, piss off.

Here's the original thread that showed the "restaked" gas key...
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=58910
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 8:25:13 AM EST
I had trouble with my Armalite ejecting cases. It would jam before the case got completely clear. Found out that it was the ejector sticking. Removed it and deburred the hole inside, stoned the ejector and gave it a some Breakfree CLP.


Haven't tried it yet but it's the little things that get you.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 8:30:38 AM EST
Templar -

Good job sticking by your customer.

Come by any time with questions (and ignore the small dogs yapping at your heels)

Link Posted: 6/21/2002 9:32:30 AM EST
Templar,

Yeesh…It looks like this thread has gotten out of hand. Let’s evaluate.

ArmaLite rifles are manufactured to accept USGI magazines. Why would they not be? Some of those magazines are the best you can buy.

ArmaLite does not manufacture M15 rifles that take a special $85.00 magazine. No such .223 magazine exists at ArmaLite.

Our rifles have a lifetime warranty that protects the customer.

Thousands of ArmaLite rifles are being used with USGI magazines and they’re working just fine.

So you might ask yourself, if all of the above is true, then how did this situation get started? We wondered the same thing so we checked it out. Turns out that:

The initial caller could not describe the rifle he had. Our tech’s made an assumption that he was calling about an AR10. ( hence the $85.00 magazine ) That’s an error in communication. It’s unfortunate, but not the end of the world.

The rifles that are being discussed here have never been returned to the factory for evaluation by our technicians. We cannot respond on the internet concerning these particular rifles because we have not had a chance to evaluate them. Sounds like a magazine issue, but you never know until you LOOK AT IT. We try to help over the phone, but that’s sometimes a hit and miss proposition.

The rifles have a warranty. If you send them in, we’ll make it right. Send your mags too. Simple really.

Bottom line, get the guns in here for service if they need it. We value our customers business and have a lot of confidence in our products which is why we offer the warranty that we do. Everyone else, load up your USGI mags and go shooting.

ArmaLite
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 2:31:49 PM EST
Hey Armalitesales,

Any truth to the statement that your rifles don't necessarily shoot with Thermolds? I have about 13 thermold 30s and none of them will work in my M15A2 SN US1033xx.

It's not a big deal though cause the aluminum ones work great. I haven't tried GI mags yet.

Strangley enough, My Bushy M17S works perfectly with the Thermolds and won't with the aluminums.

My Colt 20" Govt. Match HBAR uses them both/all. Hmmm...
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 4:31:53 PM EST

My new Armalite carbine that I purchased last fall won't work with my Thermold magazines

Actually...

One of my ArmaLites (one I got around October of last year) had trouble with H22 Thermolds. I had a buddy with a DPMS with the same problem.

Basically, the feed lips were just a little too high to get the magazine to seat properly and engage the mag catch when the bolt was closed. The bolt would hang up slightly on the mag as well.

Basically, I took out a utility knife and shaved some of the back and top of the lips away, and used the action of the bolt to smooth it out.

Now, they cycle perfectly... better than the crappy little 10-round mag they sold with the gun.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 4:46:39 PM EST
Armalite Sales, I talked to Rick (tech staff at Armalite) today for a while and we've gotten things worked out. It turns out my customer got things mixed up on his end, which mixed you guys up, which in turn mixed him up even more and then he came to me extremely upset.

Things are being worked out now. As I said, what really upset me was his statement to me that the "guy at Armalite" told him that Armalites and Eagle Arms could not be counted on to function with GI magazines.

I had never heard that so I posted this to see if anyone else had any experience with that statement. Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. I've probably sold a hundred or so Armalite rifles, some to good friends, and I've not had any serious problems with them, which is why all of this came as such a shock.

Anyway, thanks to all that gave me some insight, and even though I lurk far more than I post (I'm more of an AK guy, what can I say? ) I'm not going anywear.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 6:21:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By QCMGR:

Originally Posted By ECS:
Interesting...."tighter tolerances" than what is intended by a particular design is not, by itself a good thing. I would think that if a rifle was manufactured to tighter tolerances than required by the prints it should actually function with a wider range of components, not a narrower range of them....




What school of manufacturing did you go to? Building to a tighter tolerance i.e. 4 sigma vs 3 sigma yields a product that is built closer to the mean with less variance from the mean. As ArmaLite stated the key is "They need very high quality GI magazines, and spring tension must be very good." As long as the product is near nominal you have a better chance statistically of being able to use a wider variety of mating components. the problem arises for example; when a particular type of magazine tends to be oversized. This is where your problem manifest.



OK here's my thinking.

You have two items rifle and magazine. They must mate together. Both are subject to manufacturing tolerances /variation.

(1) Case A - rifle and magazine are both manufactured to 'normal' tolerances. Example is M16 and USGI mags. They work fine together.

(2) Case B- Rifle manufactured to "tight" tolerances, that is is has less dimensional variations than rifle A. USGI mags are the same as before. Since mags worked OK in (1) they should work even better in (2) because there is less variation in the pair.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 7:18:16 AM EST
Once again, another AR15 problme solved by just using the right magazines.

I've never had any serious problmes with any AR15, but then again I built my own so I know how they run.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 9:22:12 AM EST
Guess I missed it....but...what other brands of ammo were used?......all I see mentioned is "Q" loads......I had feeding problems with my m15....went to am.eagle and umc....problems gone.....yes it was a while ago and probably quite a few batches ago....but how do we know that?...armalite had a heads up in thier tech section about "Q" loads feeding problems.....just thought I`d throw it out there.........
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