Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 9/6/2004 5:42:01 AM EST
Well, I got a DSA FAL that has been trouble since I bought it. I already sent it to DSA once and they reemed the gas hole and couldn't find the cycling problems I was having. Sent it back. Seemed OK for a while but................... not. I'm guessing this is the cause of all my problems originally and currently.

Now, if occasionally has a spent shell stick in the chamber. And I mean stick. I will fire, bolt flies back but shell remains in chamber, and of course the next round is stripped and can not chamber as there is already someone home.

So, I go through the standard drill. Remove magazine, dump out round that failed to chamber. Drop bolt on chambered shell (of course I don't REALLY know if it is a spent shell do I? Although it always has been). This is where it gets interesting. I can not pull the bolt back now. Stuck. Jammed tight.

Only way I have been able to clear it is bounce the buttstock on the ground/table/rock/etc while pulling down on the charging handle. Eventually it comes out.

This is kinda bugging the crap out of me. What would you all do? Send it to DSA again? Smith in town? Or is there an easy answer to this? I haven't tried a wide variety of ammo and this is surplus Port or Aussie (I forget) I am shooting. Should be good to go.

Thanks for any ideas.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:42:09 AM EST
Have you tried some different ammo?
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:50:37 AM EST

+1

What kind of ammo are you using?

Is it surplus from a country that pisses in its own drinking water?
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:57:13 AM EST
Well, I really don't know what their toilet habits are.

What I am shjooting is in green battlepack plastic 200 round packs that came in a wooden crate of 1000. I believe it to be Portugese or Australian. I just don't know for sure. The individual 20 round cardboard boxes are labeled:

20
cart.7,62 mm (then a circle with a plus sign inside)
large period Ball
Lot FNM 80-1

I guess trying different ammo is an idea, but I am finding it hard to believe this ammo is defective. I dunno. Open to ideas.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:00:47 AM EST
It sounds like an extractor problem to me. What is happening is that your extractor fails to grap the rim. Meanwhile, the case has expanded to fit the chamber which makes it a bitch to fully extract. My hunch is your problems will be solved with a new extractor and extractor spring. If that's too much hassle, get a new bolt with extractor already in it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:05:54 AM EST

That's Portugese. It should be very good ammo.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:15:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By cliffy109:
It sounds like an extractor problem to me. What is happening is that your extractor fails to grap the rim. Meanwhile, the case has expanded to fit the chamber which makes it a bitch to fully extract. My hunch is your problems will be solved with a new extractor and extractor spring. If that's too much hassle, get a new bolt with extractor already in it.



Cliffy, bear with me. I'm in the slow class.

I could understand that the extractor is bad if it is slipping off the rim leaving the case in the chamber. What I don't understand is why on the second go round it grabs TIGHT (I can NOT pull the bolt back now) and the case won't extract. Why would it fail to grab the first time, yet grab that hard the second. And why would the case NOW be expanded compared to originally.

I'm not disputing, just trying to understand it.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:18:10 AM EST
Just for curiosity, let's eliminate the gas system. Have you properly adjusted the gas? Tell us what technique you used, please.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:21:40 AM EST
Warrior,

Yes, gas system has been properly adjusted. Used the methods described in my FN-FAL manual. Fire from lowest setting and add gas until the system finally locks back reliably. I then added one more to be certain. Gun cycles well.

BTW, this happens more oftn the hotter the gun gets. Maybe the chamber is shrinking. I dunno.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:24:28 AM EST
Is your chamber smooth and free of any sort of "defects" in the finish? Take a look in there with a flashlight and make sure it's GTG...

Also, call DSA and ask them some ammo questions. Should your SA-58 be OK with milsurp ammo? Are there any particular brands/types that have caused other customers some problems? Etc., etc...

Even though most Port ammo is decent, you COULD have a bad lot. I would try something else...maybe even some commericial ammo and see if you can recreate the same problems.

If all that fails, I would send it back to DSA and raise a little hell.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:14:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:17:49 AM EST
Before going forward, let me describe a totally unrelated problem. I'm doing this to help you understand the sticking issue you're having.

When adjusting the gas system, it is common to have the bolt stick. What happens is that the shell is partially extracted, but there is not enough power to fully remove it from the chamber. The recoil spring then pushes the spent shell back into the chamber. The brass has expanded, but the force of the spring jams it back in. Its now stuck. It requires doing the "FAL pogo" to get the bolt open. The pogo is what you described in getting yours open. While bouncing the butt against the hard floor, you pull back on the charging handle. The combined momentum gets it moving.

Now, on to your problem. I'm assuming you have the gas system properly adjusted and the fact that the bolt come back without the empty and double loads confirms this. For some reason, the extractor is not strong enough to keep a hold of the spent brass. The fresh bullet does the same job as the bolt does in the above description. It jams an expanded shell back into the chamber.

It may not be the extractor itself. It could be the extractor spring. That is the spring that keeps the extractor under tension. That could explain the intermittant nature of your problem as well.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:19:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff:
My rifle is doing this too. Definitely not the extractor because my extractor holds the case rim so damn tight that when the empty case freezes in the chamber the bolt stays held onto it with a death grip. Gas is properly adjusted. i want to hear the verdict on this one. mine does it once every hundred rounds or so. chrome lined bore and chamber.

-Spaceman




What makes you so sure your gas system is properly adjusted? You're describing the number one symptom of a gas system with too little gas. Try closing the ring a couple of clicks.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:22:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:49:31 PM EST
Thanks for all the tips. Guess I'm gonna have to check the chamber and maybe try again with more gas. Mine is a carbine BTW if that matters.

I'll post again in a few days after I get a chance to try again.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:51:13 PM EST
I got hold of some Port ammo with a lot year of '79. Some of the bullets were not fully seated in the caseing. The rounds were causing FTF and FTE. More than likely you have a new rifle with tight tolerances. Get some Aussie and see how it does. If that dont work you can give it to me and write it off on this years taxes.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 4:11:21 PM EST
Cliffy, it sounds like he's having some form of gas-itis. jbc, what type of DSA barrel did you get with that gun, soldered in gas tube? or not? If soldered does the piston move freely without the spring? If not, maybe the problem here. A lot of variables associated.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:00:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By 13foxtrot:
I got hold of some Port ammo with a lot year of '79. Some of the bullets were not fully seated in the caseing. The rounds were causing FTF and FTE. More than likely you have a new rifle with tight tolerances. Get some Aussie and see how it does. If that dont work you can give it to me and write it off on this years taxes.



Darn. I didn't think of that. I'll keep that in mind

OK. I have done (no comments - I should have done initially) some more research into my problem. First, I checked the chamber. Seems to be clear and smooth. A round slides in and out no problemo. So, I clean the rifle. And remove the bolt from the carrier (or whatever is the correct FAL terminology).

Hmmm, what is this? There is the end of a spring (?) sticking out from under the extractor. Probably the extractor spring.

SOB. I have no idea how to disassemble the bolt. I think you need a special tool.

OK. I am sending out a kit to be built. The kit has a bolt in it. Are these headspaced to the bolt and or carrier or what? Can I interchange to try?

Thanks and sorry I did not see this earlier.

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:27:49 AM EST
In theory, switching bolts can change headspace. I've tried it with more rifles, bolts and carriers than I can recall. In all of that, only one bolt changed the headspace at all and that was only .001". Yes, you should check it to make sure, but there is veyr little chance your headspace would change with bolts.

As for the tool, DSA has an extractor tool. You can also build one out of a coat hanger, but you're better off with the tool. Its easy to do.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:31:10 AM EST
Cliffy,

Thanks. I think I'll just take this bolt down to the friendly neighborhood smith and have him figure it out for me. I would rather pay a small price to see it done. I think I have done it once, but maybe that is why it is effed up. Perhaps I am the cause of the fubar.

I will report back after repairs and range testing.

BTW, I removed the flattop DSA scope mount today to examine the chamber and I am wondering if I need to rezero the scope now?

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:42:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:


BTW, I removed the flattop DSA scope mount today to examine the chamber and I am wondering if I need to rezero the scope now?




Probably.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:56:39 AM EST
I've never had a fail-to-extract in my DSA FAL 16" carbine, but I have had the occassional "stovepipe"/fail-to-eject when the gun is VERY HOT. I found that I had to give the gun extra gas (+4 past "mag lock") to make it reliable when hot. Its always OK when cold. I suspect that the gas port on the 16" carbine is undersized, and so if I still had a problem I would be sending it back to DSA to have the port enlarged.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:33:45 AM EST



Well, maybe premature but I THINK I GOT IT.

That wire? Was a bit of rim from a case. Not the spring. I actually found my extractor removal tool and didn't fumblefinger it and when I took the extractor off out falls this bit of brass.

I got a good feeling this was it. Will HAVE to test it ASAP. Wouldn't be prudent not to.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:42:40 AM EST
Polish the chamber!! Some of DSAs kit guns had rough chambers, Thats why I ordered mine with the Chrome lined Argie barrel (A No cost option)!
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:46:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff:


ok, went to the range today to check this out, i think you are correct now, i thought i had the gas where it needed to be but i suppose not. i now have the gas port almost completely closed (setting 2) and it seems to run fine now. i wish i could run it at a lower setting but if it works it works.



do you have a standard length barrel or a shortened one? if the latter you may just need your gas port enlarged a bit. that doesn't reason too well with intermittent problems tho.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:50:35 AM EST
That's great news! That would explain a lot wouldn't it? Let us know how it goes.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 9:23:35 AM EST
I have a couple thousand rounds through my carbine, which is less than a year old, and several hyndred through another DSA FAL, also less than a year old. I shoot surplus ammo, mostly South African and Austrailian.

I haven't seen the problems you speak of.


Link Posted: 9/9/2004 11:34:10 AM EST
OK, well I originally had cycling problems with this rifle and sent it back to DSA. They have polished the chamber and enlarged the gas port. It is a carbine rifle.

I will certainly report after next range day which is probably tomorrow. I intend to run at least 100-200 rounds through it and demand zero problems.

We shall see.

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 3:59:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By cliffy109:
Before going forward, let me describe a totally unrelated problem. I'm doing this to help you understand the sticking issue you're having.

When adjusting the gas system, it is common to have the bolt stick. What happens is that the shell is partially extracted, but there is not enough power to fully remove it from the chamber. The recoil spring then pushes the spent shell back into the chamber. The brass has expanded, but the force of the spring jams it back in. Its now stuck. It requires doing the "FAL pogo" to get the bolt open. The pogo is what you described in getting yours open. While bouncing the butt against the hard floor, you pull back on the charging handle. The combined momentum gets it moving.

Now, on to your problem. I'm assuming you have the gas system properly adjusted and the fact that the bolt come back without the empty and double loads confirms this. For some reason, the extractor is not strong enough to keep a hold of the spent brass. The fresh bullet does the same job as the bolt does in the above description. It jams an expanded shell back into the chamber.

It may not be the extractor itself. It could be the extractor spring. That is the spring that keeps the extractor under tension. That could explain the intermittant nature of your problem as well.



Cliffy is right, your problems are extractor related. I have built many a FAL rifle and have seen this many, many times. This is the AR15 FTE equivalent on the FAL. I am stumped that DSA didn't find the problem, I know some of those guys, they are the best out there. Sometimes I have noticed that mis-matching different country of origin bolts and extractors sometimes make a difference too. I know DSA uses alot of Israeli extractors in Steyr bolts, which run tight. I use Israeli extracors too, sometimes I polish them down. Clean the bolt, change the spring, your problem will cease to exsist.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 4:01:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:


BTW, I removed the flattop DSA scope mount today to examine the chamber and I am wondering if I need to rezero the scope now?




Probably.



It's supposed to hold zero. But I have learned only a few things in life.

There is no such thing as non corrosive ammo
No scope holds it 's zero as claimed
The IRS is not your friend
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:42:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 6:44:28 PM EST by drobs]
I mentioned this in the other thread.

I could be totally off my rocker, but I was having a similiar problem with my ORF carbine, I narrowed it down to 2 out of my 10 or 12 mags that were causing the same problem you mentioned. I marked the mags that caused the gun to double feed and noticed that the gun works fine with the other 8 or so mags. I kept switching between the good mags and the bad mags and finally threw out the bad mags. Problem ceased.

I have my gas set at 2.

How many mags do you have and does the problem happen with every mag?

Here's another possibility, I tried that Tapco stripper clip scope mount on my gun and noticed that it put pressure on the receiver causing the gun to jam. Is it possible that you or DSA over tightened your scope mount cover?
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 2:33:39 PM EST
Thanks to all and sundry. Just returned from the range where I fired about 150 rounds. I had one stovepipe. Not happy about that, but not catastrophic.. I am fairly certain the main problem was the bit of brass caught in the extractor.

And it is good to know thatr the IRS is not my friend. They sure had me fooled up to now.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 3:16:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:
Thanks to all and sundry. Just returned from the range where I fired about 150 rounds. I had one stovepipe. Not happy about that, but not catastrophic.. I am fairly certain the main problem was the bit of brass caught in the extractor.

And it is good to know thatr the IRS is not my friend. They sure had me fooled up to now.



Well, at least it wasn't a double feed that stopped your gun. The stovepipe is more likely a gas issue.
Top Top