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Posted: 12/31/2010 8:17:19 PM EDT
Can somebody please help me with one question regarding hardware purchased on a LE Demo letter? If we get the letter and purchase two of the weapons, who can posses them after the demo is over? Can it go home with one of the gun store employees or an officer of the company? What documentation would be needed incase a local cop starts asking questions at the range?

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/31/2010 8:29:24 PM EDT
Whomever has possession better be on the license or listed as one who can possess the weapon for the company. You should always keep a copy of the F3 with you when you have the weapon out.
Link Posted: 1/1/2011 6:32:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Can somebody please help me with one question regarding hardware purchased on a LE Demo letter? If we get the letter and purchase two of the weapons, who can posses them after the demo is over? Can it go home with one of the gun store employees or an officer of the company? What documentation would be needed incase a local cop starts asking questions at the range?

Thanks

No different than any other firearm in FFL inventory.

However, since the only lawful purpose of a P86 firearm is as a sales demo, you may want to think about how you use it outside that purpose.
Link Posted: 1/1/2011 8:36:48 AM EDT
To expand on the OP question,

What happens to the post86 demo gun when the FFL SOT gives up his license?
Can it transfer to another SOT without the other SOT having a demo letter??
Link Posted: 1/1/2011 9:09:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By T-800:
To expand on the OP question,

What happens to the post86 demo gun when the FFL SOT gives up his license?
Can it transfer to another SOT without the other SOT having a demo letter??

Transfers to a dealer w/ SOT will need a demo letter, transfers to a manufacturer or importer w/ SOT will not.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-14.pdf

Section 14.3 Disposition of “post-86 machineguns.” Section 479.105(f) requires the FFL/SOT going
out of business to transfer machinegun(s) manufactured after May 19, 1986 to a Federal, State or local
government entity, qualified manufacturer, qualified importer, or, subject to the provisions of
479.105(d), to a qualified dealer. The transfers must be completed prior to the FFL/SOT going out of
business. The transfer to a government entity would be on Form 5 and the transfer to a qualified
manufacturer, importer, or dealer would be on Form 3. The transfer of a machinegun manufactured
after May 19, 1986 to a qualified manufacturer or qualified importer can be done without the ‘law
enforcement letters of interest’ when the possessing FFL/SOT is going out of business. That fact that
the transferring FFL is discontinuing business must be documented with the submission of the transfer
applications. Transfer of a machinegun manufactured after May 19, 1986 from an FFL/SOT going out
of business to a qualified dealer requires compliance with section 479.105(d).

The FFL/SOT going out of business may also choose to destroy the machinegun(s), transfer them to
State or local government agencies, or abandon them to ATF or State or local government agencies. If
the firearms will be destroyed, ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch can be contacted for procedures to
properly destroy a machinegun. Once the destruction has been accomplished, notify the NFA Branch of
the destruction in writing, including a description of the machinegun(s) and the means of destruction.
For abandonment to ATF, contact the local ATF office.
Link Posted: 1/1/2011 9:17:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2011 9:18:30 AM EDT by rcoers]
Originally Posted By T-800:
To expand on the OP question,

What happens to the post86 demo gun when the FFL SOT gives up his license?
Can it transfer to another SOT without the other SOT having a demo letter??


He can either transfer them to a gov agency, surrender them to ATF, or transfer them to another Class 1,2, or 3 dealer (and yes, that dealer will need a demo letter - however, a Class 1 or 2 will not need it)

Per the NFA Handbook, Page 86:

Section 14.3 Disposition of “post-86 machineguns.” Section 479.105(f) requires the FFL/SOT going out of business to transfer machinegun(s) manufactured after May 19, 1986 to a Federal, State or local government entity, qualified manufacturer, qualified importer, or, subject to the provisions of 479.105(d), to a qualified dealer. The transfers must be completed prior to the FFL/SOT going out of business. The transfer to a government entity would be on Form 5 and the transfer to a qualified manufacturer, importer, or dealer would be on Form 3. The transfer of a machinegun manufactured after May 19, 1986 to a qualified manufacturer or qualified importer can be done without the ‘law enforcement letters of interest’ when the possessing FFL/SOT is going out of business. That fact that the transferring FFL is discontinuing business must be documented with the submission of the transfer applications. Transfer of a machinegun manufactured after May 19, 1986 from an FFL/SOT going out of business to a qualified dealer requires compliance with section 479.105(d). The FFL/SOT going out of business may also choose to destroy the machinegun(s), transfer them to State or local government agencies, or abandon them to ATF or State or local government agencies. If the firearms will be destroyed, ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch can be contacted for procedures to properly destroy a machinegun. Once the destruction has been accomplished, notify the NFA Branch of the destruction in writing, including a description of the machinegun(s) and the means of destruction. For abandonment to ATF, contact the local ATF office.

ETA: Beat by Bubbles
Link Posted: 1/1/2011 9:22:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2011 9:23:38 AM EDT by rcoers]
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Can somebody please help me with one question regarding hardware purchased on a LE Demo letter? If we get the letter and purchase two of the weapons, who can posses them after the demo is over? Can it go home with one of the gun store employees or an officer of the company? What documentation would be needed incase a local cop starts asking questions at the range?

Thanks

No different than any other firearm in FFL inventory.

However, since the only lawful purpose of a P86 firearm is as a sales demo, you may want to think about how you use it outside that purpose.


Correct, recent rulings however by ATF have tightened the definition of a bona fide employee. Simply giving any firearm to a contractor of your business (or a volunteer) is considered a "transfer" now. Per ATF Ruling 2010-1:

Businesses carry out operations through their employees. When an FFL temporarily assigns a firearm to an employee for bona fide business purposes, title and control of the firearm remain with the licensee. For this reason, no transfer or disposition occurs for purposes of the GCA. Accordingly, no NICS check, disposition record entry, or ATF Form 4473 is required for the temporary assignment of a firearm by an FFL to its employee. Bona fide business purposes, in this context, are purposes integral to the FFL’s business operations, and do not include permanently assigning a firearm to a specific employee, or loaning or renting a firearm to an employee for personal use. Those are considered transfers or other dispositions that would trigger recordkeeping and NICS requirements. Because FFLs are accountable for their firearms inventories, ATF strongly recommends that FFLs ensure accountability for firearms temporarily assigned to employees. In addition, ATF reminds FFLs that they may not knowingly make available or assign a firearm to any person whose receipt or possession of firearms is prohibited under the GCA.

Businesses may also support their operations through contractors or volunteers. When an FFL temporarily assigns a firearm to a non-employee, even for bona fide business purposes, a transfer occurs for purposes of the GCA. Temporary firearms assignments to employees are different from temporary firearms assignments to non-employee contractors, agents, and representatives because the FFL exerts a higher level of control over its employees than its contractors or agents. Unlike contractors and agents, employees work for wages or salaries under direct supervision. In an employer-employee relationship, the employer controls not only the result of the employee’s work, but also the manner, training, and hours in which the work will be carried out. In independent contractor or non-employee agency relationships, the independent contractor or non-employee agent has control of the manner, training, and hours of performing the work, and is only responsible for the result. Because an FFL relinquishes control over a firearm by temporarily assigning it to a non-employee, the GCA requirements apply.

If the FFL and the unlicensed person do not wish to enter into an employer-employee relationship, certain unlicensed persons may obtain a Federal firearms license from ATF. As discussed above, the Brady Law does not apply to transfers between FFLs; therefore, no NICS check would be required to transfer a firearm from one FFL to another. In ATF Ruling 73-19, for example, ATF determined that firearms consultants and experts may be licensed as dealers to receive firearms from unlicensed persons for testing and evaluation. ATF Rul. 73-19, 1973-ATF C.B. 93. Licensed dealers who engage solely in firearms consulting or expert services for firearms testing or evaluation need not maintain regular business hours or open their business premises to the general public, although they must comply with all other applicable GCA requirements.
Link Posted: 1/1/2011 9:27:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By P08:
Whomever has possession better be on the license or listed as one who can possess the weapon for the company. You should always keep a copy of the F3 with you when you have the weapon out.


They don't necessarily have to be on the license, but they should be a "bona-fide" employee (ie, you have them on the payroll and they aren't just a buddy or contractor of the shop)
Link Posted: 1/1/2011 10:45:44 AM EDT
Thank you all for the good information. That gives me a lot to talk about when we have the official discussions.
Link Posted: 1/11/2011 8:00:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By P08:
Whomever has possession better be on the license or listed as one who can possess the weapon for the company. You should always keep a copy of the F3 with you when you have the weapon out.


This is nothing but wrong. Any employee can possess it. Do you think every HK or Colt sales person who gives demos is on the FFL? Of course not, it just needs to be a bona fide employee.
Link Posted: 1/11/2011 8:13:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigcbass:
Originally Posted By P08:
Whomever has possession better be on the license or listed as one who can possess the weapon for the company. You should always keep a copy of the F3 with you when you have the weapon out.


This is nothing but wrong. Any employee can possess it. Do you think every HK or Colt sales person who gives demos is on the FFL? Of course not, it just needs to be a bona fide employee.
Well I will let you try to convince the officer that you can legally own it. So have someone go off with nothing to tell LE that they are legal to possess a post sample MG.

Link Posted: 1/12/2011 3:02:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By P08:

Originally Posted By bigcbass:
Originally Posted By P08:
Whomever has possession better be on the license or listed as one who can possess the weapon for the company. You should always keep a copy of the F3 with you when you have the weapon out.


This is nothing but wrong. Any employee can possess it. Do you think every HK or Colt sales person who gives demos is on the FFL? Of course not, it just needs to be a bona fide employee.
Well I will let you try to convince the officer that you can legally own it. So have someone go off with nothing to tell LE that they are legal to possess a post sample MG.



Most LE officers have no clue what a "post sample" MG is, or let alone any of the ATF paperwork.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 3:58:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rcoers:
Most LE officers have no clue what a "post sample" MG is, or let alone any of the ATF paperwork.

Which is why you keep the contact info for the ATF field divisions handy when you travel.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 4:48:29 AM EDT
And another thing, even if you are listed as a responsible person on the license it is not shown on the actual face of the license itself.
Link Posted: 1/12/2011 6:08:52 PM EDT
Well I will let you try to convince the officer that you can legally own it. So have someone go off with nothing to tell LE that they are legal to possess a post sample MG.



That is the case with any machine gun. Police don't understand the complex laws and regulations on machine guns. At least with a post sample you have a federal license you can show them, plus the demo letter, SOT, and approved form 3. With a transferable you don't have anything but the form 4 (and it may be in some trust's name). And people shoot their transferables everyday without issue.

Link Posted: 1/23/2011 10:28:57 AM EDT
If you're going to let your employees take Post-86 Samples off premises for demos, or if they're taking any NFA weapon off premises, for that matter, they should not only keep a copy of the Form 3 (or Form 2, if you're the manufacturer), but they should probably have a business card from the business, with their name and title on the card. That way, any contact with an LEO should go like this:

Officer: Excuse me, sir. Do you have your paperwork for that MG?
Employee: Yes, sir, I do. Here's the Form 3, on which you'll see the make, model and serial number of the gun, as well as the name of the business which owns it. Here's my business card, which shows that I am a sales representative for XYZ Guns, the legal owner of this MG.
Officer: Ok, everything seems to be in order. Any chance you'll let me take her for a spin?
Employee: Well, it is a Post-86 LE sales sample, and you're a cop. So, letting you shoot it means I've used it for an LE Demo. By all means, dump a mag or two.

Everyone goes home happy, no dogs have been shot, and just maybe, that cop will put in a good word to his superiors about XYZ Guns and you might get a call about selling the department some guns.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 7:29:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Transfers to a dealer w/ SOT will need a demo letter, transfers to a manufacturer or importer w/ SOT will not.



I may be reading you wrong, but are you saying that simple being 07/02 means you do not need demo letters for purchases? I know I dont need them to MFG posties, but my interpretation is that I still need a letter to acquire from another. You say otherwise.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 8:14:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By microsuck1:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
Transfers to a dealer w/ SOT will need a demo letter, transfers to a manufacturer or importer w/ SOT will not.



I may be reading you wrong, but are you saying that simple being 07/02 means you do not need demo letters for purchases? I know I dont need them to MFG posties, but my interpretation is that I still need a letter to acquire from another. You say otherwise.


You have to look at the sentence in context. She was saying you don't need a demo letter if you are a manufacturer and you are acquiring from someone that is either going out of business or giving up their SOT status.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:36:58 AM EDT
Ah, ha. I see now. I was unaware of the "Going out of business" clause. So does going out of business also mean FFLs who are going to let their SOT lapse? Or just to FFLs that are completely shutting down? The law did not define "going out of business"
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:20:30 PM EDT
letting SOT lapse counts
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