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Posted: 7/29/2002 6:21:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:27:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 6:27:36 AM EST by redray]
"Most of the department's .40-caliber semiautomatic Glock pistols were purchased 12 years ago. The department's firearms experts have determined the slides that eject spent shell casings have become worn and may not work properly. If they malfunction, the shell will not eject properly and will create a jam when a live round advances into the firing chamber."

12 years of faithful service and not even a phone call to Glock as to the cause? sounds like someones itching to spend the money since the end of the fiscal year is coming up.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:27:49 AM EST
Maybe they just wanted to dump the 40 cal weapons for the 45?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:30:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 6:30:47 AM EST by Citabria7GCBC]
i thought it was because they started suddenly melting in the sun....hehehehe j/k i was never really fond of GLOCK. SIG SAUER P200 .45 Cal on the other hand is my friend!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:30:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 6:30:51 AM EST by garandman]
Given the little amount of practice most PD's do with their duty weapon, my guess is that after 12 years of neglect, the internals of the fightin' tupperware deteriorated beyond use.



Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:32:35 AM EST
Avondale should have spent that $55K on a new "Firearms Expert"!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:36:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 7:19:39 AM EST by mr_wilson]
Anyone find it odd that they received their Glock Model 22's in (2002-12years = )1990.

Thought the first 40 S&W calibers were imported in 1992. Can anyone verify this as that's what all my books say. If that's correct they got their Glocks 2 years before they were ever imported. Neat trick.

Mike
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:36:53 AM EST
They are nuts, if they wanted new guns or a new cal. it is a shame they had to lie to whomever to get them, I think around 65 percent of the Law Enforcement agencies use Glocks and these baboons are the only ones "to have problems" A department up North of me, small about 25 men, just junked there Sigs for Glocks. Guns are like cars everyone has a preferred model, Ford, Chevy, Dodge/ Glock, S&W, Sig. But I take issue with these goofballs condemning Glocks to get new guns.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:38:06 AM EST
Sig P-220, I keep one on my nightstand loaded with 200 grain Corbons. It sets next to the 870, bandoleer and machete.

Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:40:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By DSA_Brat:
Sig P-220, I keep one on my nightstand loaded with 200 grain Corbons. It sets next to the 870, bandoleer and machete.


Your going to roll over one day and cut yourself, or shoot yourself, or poke out your eye.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:47:40 AM EST
bountyhunter
Haven't done it in the 12 years I have had it this way.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:01:43 AM EST
It's not as if they were a bustling metropolis in Avondale... $55000 is not exactly a truckload of Sigs... I think redray hit it on the head... Money to burn....
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:12:42 AM EST
They probably have never cleaned those malfunctioning guns beyond a standard feild stripping, and their is so much crap built up behind the extarctors they don't work properly.

"Hmmmm, should we clean em, or buy new guns???

Yeah, lets get new guns!"
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:14:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:24:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bretshooter:
Avondale should have spent that $55K on a new "Firearms Expert"!



Now THAT is funny!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:30:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Anyone find it odd that they received their Glock Model 22's in (2002-12years = )1990.

Thought the first 40 S&W calibers were imported in 1992. Can anyone verify this as that's what all my books say. If that's correct they got their Glocks 2 years before they were ever imported. Neat trick. While not being a big Glock fan, my G-22 was made in '90 also, according to Glockmeister. It works just fine. Looking at some LEO's weapons, hair growing from the ejection port is not a major concern.

Mike

Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:32:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Anyone find it odd that they received their Glock Model 22's in (2002-12years = )1990.

Thought the first 40 S&W calibers were imported in 1992. Can anyone verify this as that's what all my books say. If that's correct they got their Glocks 2 years before they were ever imported. Neat trick.

Mike



Goodness - you don't have to shout!

FWIW – I bought a Glock 23 in August 1991.

Glocks are pretty much indestructible, so I don’t buy their argument. Someone wants .45’s and is using this as an excuse to get them.

Wonder who’s going to get their unmarked, hi-cap magazines?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:38:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:45:55 AM EST
Limp wristing? jk

I'm not that big of a glock fan, but it sounds like bs to me.

By the way, you'd think that if they are making that big of a purchase of sigs that they'd get a better price than $578.95.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:10:27 AM EST
I've always had the opinion that LEO's ought to be required (or atleast allowed) to purchase, own, and maintain their sidearms.

I figure that you're more likely to practice, care for, and become proficient with something that you OWN, rather than are just ISSUED.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:54:15 AM EST
The same theory applies to public safety radio systems. After 4 or 5 years, the mobile antennas are full of corrosion and the portable radio batteries have been boiled to death in the charger. Nothing has been properly maintained and simply doesn't work as well as it did when new. Then the city officials publicly say that their "old" radio systems are no longer adequate and must be replaced.

It's just a way to keep money in the budget and the taxpayer fleeced.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 9:16:49 AM EST
Glocks aren't as good as everybody likes to believe they are. I thought that Chuck Taylor put his glock through miracle torture tests in mud, salt water for months, extreme cold, cow shit etc.....He said he didn't experience 1 malfunction???

B/S!!! All guns will fail eventually. Nothing is 100% picture perfect.

I've heard of another law enforcement agency out here in So. Cal that had to return several of their BRAND NEW Glock 21's (.45acp) back to glock due to malfunctions. New or used, products have problems. From home made model rockets, to the billion dollar space shuttle.....To rubber band guns, to the M1-A Abrams tank.....Everything is prone to breakage, malfunction, unreliability etc....

It's just that some products take a longer time to break down.

I think the Sig P220 is a great choice. I really don't think that the .40 is really all that much better than a 9mm anyway.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:22:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hk45USP:
Glocks aren't as good as everybody likes to believe they are. I thought that Chuck Taylor put his glock through miracle torture tests in mud, salt water for months, extreme cold, cow shit etc.....He said he didn't experience 1 malfunction???

B/S!!! All guns will fail eventually. Nothing is 100% picture perfect.

I've heard of another law enforcement agency out here in So. Cal that had to return several of their BRAND NEW Glock 21's (.45acp) back to glock due to malfunctions. New or used, products have problems. From home made model rockets, to the billion dollar space shuttle.....To rubber band guns, to the M1-A Abrams tank.....Everything is prone to breakage, malfunction, unreliability etc....

It's just that some products take a longer time to break down.

I think the Sig P220 is a great choice. I really don't think that the .40 is really all that much better than a 9mm anyway.



Gee, there's a surprise. An HK username bashing Glock.

So from what I gather you are calling Chuck Taylor a liar?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:41:17 PM EST
I don't think this has to be thought of as a bash on Glocks. After 12 years who knows? Maybe that's the shelf life on these as they have only been around that long. Maybe they were well maintained and fired frequently and simply wore out. As far as their choice of Sig, it's a popular choice. And as far as shosing .45 cal, I think it's a good choice. I still don't see why most departments force their guys to carry .9mm Since Glocks are fairly new compared to Sigs, maybe they made the choice based on some good research. Then maybe they are full of it. I wouldn't get defensive about your Glocks. If they work for you great. This dept. made a choice based on who knows what. I'd say any duty weapon should be replaced at least every 10 years anyway, maybe sooner.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:41:19 PM EST
I am not suprised one bit. I am a LEO here in Az - second largest Dept in Phx area. I am suprised my Dept hasnt done away with the Glock 22's. They suck. Our range staff hates them. They have tons of problems.

They dont hate glock in general they just hate the .40 cal glocks. They are the only ones we have problems with. The Glock 17's and 21's run perfect. I love my G21. Glock wont stand behind their products!! My tac team experienced tons of malfunctions with the Glock when used with any type of lighting system. We notified Glock. Instead of saying - "we'll look into it" they said - "its not a gun problem." After complaints from depts across the country, what did they finally do? Admitted it was a mag problem and came out with followers that feed correctly.

After using a Glock for a long time the only thing I like about it for LEO work is the trigger. I would not want to switch to a long DAO pull. We use the lighter connectors in the Glocks. My opinion has always been that the frame on the .40 is too small for the high power of the .40.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:47:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 1:00:55 PM EST by OLY-M4gery]

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Anyone find it odd that they received their Glock Model 22's in (2002-12years = )1990.

Thought the first 40 S&W calibers were imported in 1992. Can anyone verify this as that's what all my books say. If that's correct they got their Glocks 2 years before they were ever imported. Neat trick.

Mike



Shhhhhhhh, we just got the new .43 cal Glocks, you won't know about those until 2007.

In all seriousness, the Glock .40's have had problems. There was the magazine spring problem, and .40 seems more likely to KB.

As far as politics, yes they probably had to PROVE they needed new guns. They just can't say, the guns are 12 years old we'd like to update so that we are sure that all the issue weapons work if needed.

Where I work, there was no money budgeted for new pagers. But there was money available to repair pagers. They kept repairing old pagers over and over. It was going to cost something like $100.00 to update the old analog pagers due to some changes in the network. But new digital pagers cost $80.00 each.

Hold on new pagers are not in the budget......... You know sometimes in order to save oney you may have to spend some money.

"Penny wise and pound foolish." Comes to mind. I'm sure they could make their old Glocks run for a while, but what would it cost vs. buying new guns??

Which would you want if the SHTF?? New, or we think this will be ok.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:48:09 PM EST
A Dallas suburb SWAT team dropped the GLOCK for
the H&K MK23. After a few months of being
unsatisfied with H&K customer service, they
switched back to the Glock.

All it takes is a manufacturer pissing
off the wrong person and...

Care for a quick game of politics anyone?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:52:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ohaiclan:
I am not suprised one bit. I am a LEO here in Az - second largest Dept in Phx area. I am suprised my Dept hasnt done away with the Glock 22's. They suck. Our range staff hates them. They have tons of problems.

Such as? (I'm not trying to defend Glock, I just want to know what the problems are that you've seen.)


They dont hate glock in general they just hate the .40 cal glocks. They are the only ones we have problems with. The Glock 17's and 21's run perfect. I love my G21. Glock wont stand behind their products!! My tac team experienced tons of malfunctions with the Glock when used with any type of lighting system. We notified Glock. Instead of saying - "we'll look into it" they said - "its not a gun problem." After complaints from depts across the country, what did they finally do? Admitted it was a mag problem and came out with followers that feed correctly.
Eh, what now? A mounted light indicated faulty mag followers? Are you talking about two different problems or just one?
I don't understand how the lighting system could interfere with the function of the magazine, unless you used light mounted onto the actual magazine itself.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 12:59:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By 199:


Wonder who’s going to get their unmarked, hi-cap magazines?

CDNN will then sell them as "demos" -the ones that aren't "LOST" that is



The two Glock 22 hi-caps i purchased from CDNN were like new.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:00:09 PM EST
These are the problems that ive seen on G22's - IVE seen. Ive seen mostly the slides swelling near the rails. Ive seen many extractor problems. And especially the FTF with the light system.

The light system can damn sure mess with a gun. It doesnt have to be attached to the magazine to do this. With weight on different areas of the gun it causes different recoil. Glock put rails on their guns but obviously did not T&E them or they wouldve noticed the problem. We hosted a SWAT school this year and had 5 different agencies complain about the Glock light problem.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:14:03 PM EST
I am suprised that nobody out here seems to know about the Glock mag follower problem.

BE AWARE GLOCK SHOOTERS. If you have a light on your gun make sure you have the newest followers for your mags. The new followers have a steep upward slant toward the front to ensure that they will feed properly. Make sure you test your gun with your expensive hollow points also. Our lighted guns functioned differently with each type of ammo until we got the new followers.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:25:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
A Dallas suburb SWAT team dropped the GLOCK for
the H&K MK23. After a few months of being
unsatisfied with H&K customer service, they
switched back to the Glock.

All it takes is a manufacturer pissing
off the wrong person and...

Care for a quick game of politics anyone?



This doesn't surprise me one bit. I love HKs, but their service sucks. It's amazing they can make some really nice products and then piss off the customer to a competitor. I heard the reason the FBI and Secret Service switched from MP5s to P90s wasn't that they had a problem with the MP5 or were so in love with the P90, they just hated the service from Sterling VA.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:28:54 PM EST
I think the problem is the polymer used in glocks. After 12 years exposure to UV from the sun it deteriorates into a chemical substance chemists call failtoextractium.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:29:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 1:36:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By az_larry:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
A Dallas suburb SWAT team dropped the GLOCK for
the H&K MK23. After a few months of being
unsatisfied with H&K customer service, they
switched back to the Glock.

All it takes is a manufacturer pissing
off the wrong person and...

Care for a quick game of politics anyone?



This doesn't surprise me one bit. I love HKs, but their service sucks. It's amazing they can make some really nice products and then piss off the customer to a competitor. I heard the reason the FBI and Secret Service switched from MP5s to P90s wasn't that they had a problem with the MP5 or were so in love with the P90, they just hated the service from Sterling VA.



Yup! I own three -
USP Compact .40 for carry.
USP .9mm for the wife and shooting steel.
USP .45 Tactical for...well, just beacuse.[:D)

Getting a returned phone call from H&K is a
rare treat. I'm told it's gotten a lot better
lately...whatever that means.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:18:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ohaiclan:
The light system can damn sure mess with a gun. It doesnt have to be attached to the magazine to do this. With weight on different areas of the gun it causes different recoil. Glock put rails on their guns but obviously did not T&E them or they wouldve noticed the problem. We hosted a SWAT school this year and had 5 different agencies complain about the Glock light problem.

Any particular lights, or just in general?

I saw Robar offers to "install" accessory rails on GenI Glocks for $140, something I've been thinking about doing (That or buy a new one.)
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:28:47 PM EST
We have had problems with the Surefires mounted to the trigger guard on the GenI and problems with M3 lights on the rail glocks. Doesnt matter what light you put on a handgun, you may encounter problems and it is always a good idea to test it out to make sure it doesnt cause malfunctions

If I were you I would buy a new Glock instead of paying for the rails. Robar is a good company, thats who builds our sniper rifles. You will never get that $$ back if you get that done. - Try Lonewolf in Az if you want to get a new glock, they have some great prices. Officers on my dept get their secondary guns from.

www.divinefa.com/glock/glock_handguns.htm
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:50:52 PM EST
I've been carrying my dept issued 229 for 10 years, not one hiccup. My Glock 27 backup broke a recoil rod several years ago. That was the only problem it ever had. The armouor (SP?) said he had never seen that happen before. He immediately ordered a bunch for his stock.

PS.Most cops do not take care of their weapons. Familiarity breeds contempt.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:53:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By skullworks:
I saw Robar offers to "install" accessory rails on GenI Glocks for $140, something I've been thinking about doing (That or buy a new one.)



That's not exactly a screaming deal. I called Glock in Georgia and asked what it would cost just to swap out frames and they said it depends on the model. But for my large frame Glock 21 it was $155.00 plus shipping for a new Gen. 3 frame swapped out with my Gen. 2 frame. OF course this also requires a new 4473 since the new frame has a new serial number. I ended up selling my Gen. 2 G21 at the gunshow for $550 with 1-10 rounder and 1-13 round NDF mag and an hour later picked up a NIB Glock 21 with 2-10's for $525 in a private sale with no paperwork. Not bad huh? All because I wanted the rails to mount a light.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:34:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Vector_Joe:
By the way, you'd think that if they are making that big of a purchase of sigs that they'd get a better price than $578.95.


Actually, 95 pistols isn’t really that many.

Also, they might be getting nightsights and/or extra magazines with that price.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:35:38 PM EST
Limpwristed cops? sorry....just my smartass .02 worth
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:22:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 5:24:23 PM EST by skullworks]

Originally Posted By Ohaiclan:
We have had problems with the Surefires mounted to the trigger guard on the GenI and problems with M3 lights on the rail glocks.

Gotcha, what ammo do you guys use?


If I were you I would buy a new Glock instead of paying for the rails.
Well, I'm still undecided. I've forked out more than I should on toys and a new car over the past two months. So $140 sounded better than


Robar is a good company, thats who builds our sniper rifles.
Though the way Robbie got the contract wasn't very nice... (Or so I was told.) When I worked in the valley we had almost all of our rifles done (Roguard/NP3) at Robar, except for when the customer specified otherwise.


You will never get that $$ back if you get that done. - Try Lonewolf in Az if you want to get a new glock, they have some great prices. Officers on my dept get their secondary guns from.
I really have no plans on getting ridd of my trusted old 19. But, it could always use a buddy. [=D] I got a new connector from Lonewolf, and believe I bought my Fobus holster from them (can't remember.)


(Added "Or so I was told.")
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:28:34 PM EST
Glock, Sig, what's the difference they still don't come close to my 1911's!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:30:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By DSA_Brat:
bountyhunter
Haven't done it in the 12 years I have had it this way.

I know I was just goofing off and having a little fun, no insult intended.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:38:29 PM EST
"Hi I am the mayor of a city our Glocks are jamming all the time. We need to get new guns. We can not even get thru this supply of Wolf ammo. "
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:44:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bigdude:
Glock, Sig, what's the difference they still don't come close to my 1911's!!!!!!!!!!

You are on target, I have sold , bought , sold and finally have stayed with the old horse, I just can't think of a gun that is better, BUT, it is a gun that needs to be used by a person , who shoots and practices, a pros gun if you will say it. Most cops only shoot at qualification time , and they have accidental discharges a lot with 1911's , but that is there problem , not mine. "1911's rule the rest drool."
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:26:29 PM EST
Well heck guys...12 years...LEO's...those poor glocks may have had almost 1,000 rounds through them.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:48:15 PM EST
Finger on trigger while holstering? Sounds like operator error and need remedial firearm training. But it's easier to blame it on the equipment I suppose.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:19:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By bountyhunter:

Originally Posted By Bigdude:
Glock, Sig, what's the difference they still don't come close to my 1911's!!!!!!!!!!

You are on target, I have sold , bought , sold and finally have stayed with the old horse, I just can't think of a gun that is better, BUT, it is a gun that needs to be used by a person , who shoots and practices, a pros gun if you will say it. Most cops only shoot at qualification time , and they have accidental discharges a lot with 1911's , but that is there problem , not mine. "1911's rule the rest drool."



How do you AD a 1911?
You have to squeeze the grip safety and pull the trigger fully to the rear, with the manual safety off.
Were these guys taping down the grip safety or something? I can understand someone used to DA's not remembering the manual safety but...
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:33:06 PM EST
Had to put in my 2 cents here. About a year ago I asked a lieutenant in the local sheriff's dept. what he thought of their Glocks. His reply was that he loved his Glock, and that they had proven more reliable than the old S&W wheelguns issued prior to the S&W pistols the Glocks replaced. I know the Glocks had also been in use at least 6 years at the time. Secondly my cousin (dad's cousin actually) in second in command in the sheriff's dept of our home town in south Georgia. They switched to Glocks several years ago right after all Ga. state agencies made the switch. They werent that interested until they talked with the DNR game wardens who were so impressed with their new Glocks that they were initially very skeptical of. If you know anything about game wardens, especially ones in the south then you know it takes alot for them to be impressed by a gun. I also know some of you will say "well Glock USA is based in GA so of course the state agencies use them..., etc." However, if Glocks had problems the state LE agencies would have ditched them, politics aside, they wont put up with bad guns. So thats my take.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 11:59:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By skullworks:
I saw Robar offers to "install" accessory rails on GenI Glocks for $140, something I've been thinking about doing (That or buy a new one.)



skullworks - check out NightHawk's post at www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=135178&page=2

Maybe he'd want your pistol!
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