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Posted: 3/17/2019 3:50:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2019 1:26:55 PM EDT by will-1]
Was shooting a bunch of footage for different stuff and wanted to share this for the forum. Tonight was even brighter at 82% illumination Moon straight overhead. No clouds. I left manual gain at max on all three devices. I had to use my BNVD's to get the Harris HP+ footage because I sold my last PVS-14 HP+ (to fund the new L3). Looking at it hanging off the front of my camera was a little worrying but no mishaps. Anybody who's used the dslr camera adapters knows what I'm talking about.

For people interested in discerning threats, I tried different angles and drew my G19, presented it, and aimed towards camera. Max distance is approximately 40-50 yards. I don't have a lot of open space and when I tried it with the bright moon it was pointless because of course you could see a human far away as hell.

Same camera settings for each device. The L3 vid looks overexposed and more black & white compared to the others but exact same settings. Through the camera's led screen it was hard to tell. Filming these is tough especially when your eyes get wonky looking through all the tubes and camera screen. How these look to my eyes, these videos are accurate in terms of showing the difference in performance, not perfect exact matches for how it actually looks to the eyes (real life always better). You super scientific method bros hold your fire because like Augee and Robert/JRH, I'm just trying to show the differences, and they caught some unneeded flack about camera settings etc. It's a free country you can buy all the devices you want and perform your tests how you want em

The videos speak for themselves. All three work great and have their place in the NVD community.

Top left is Photonis Echo WP. 67 res, 31.01 snr, 0.2 ebi *EDIT: thanks to txdx the Echo’s ebi is 2.0 U.S.)
Top right is Harris HP+ 64 res, 30.5 snr, 1.84 ebi (yikes, forgot the right tube was that high. Left is .84.
Bottom middle is L3 filmless WP 72 res, 33.9 snr, 0.6 ebi

Edit to add specs ^

Photonis Echo (L) vs Harris HP+ (R) vs L3 Filmless (Middle)
Link Posted: 3/17/2019 10:06:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/17/2019 11:01:08 AM EDT
Lol, yessir. It sucks seeing someone kick dirt on someone’s work because it’s easier said then done. You can spend all night going through all your camera batteries and draining your phone trying to get the “right shot”. I’ve done that umpteen times. I gave up on trying to specifically do exact “how it looks” vids/pics. The only way to do that is to play with settings or edits to make it look how it looks to you but the whole doctoring thing. I just try to get as much as possible. Some turn out perfect or good and some not so much.

I normally do turn my HP+’s down. The Echo was fine at max gain, I think a combo of the phosphor and lower gain it wasn’t too bright. The L3 although bright was a lot more tolerable than the green HP’s, I’d have to say because of the phosphor. Through the little Canon screen it didn’t look too bright, so I just left them all on max gain. Wasn’t going to redo it again once I uploaded them on the pc.
Link Posted: 3/17/2019 11:00:14 PM EDT
Really nice comparison! I like the three videos side by side. Much easier to see the differences than in separate videos.

FYI, Photonis measures EBI in microlux whereas US tubes measure EBI in phot. 0.2 microlux is the same as 2e-11 phot. In other words, the Photonis tube has an EBI of 2 if you're comparing it against Harris/ITT/L3 tubes.
Link Posted: 3/18/2019 1:03:21 AM EDT
No shit!? Those sneaky Eurosexual motherfuckers!!

Lol just kidding thanks for the info txdx. That ebi number seemed awfully low. Makes sense now.

I agree on the comparisons so I wanted to stack them. Glad you liked it



Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By txdx:
Really nice comparison! I like the three videos side by side. Much easier to see the differences than in separate videos.

FYI, Photonis measures EBI in microlux whereas US tubes measure EBI in phot. 0.2 microlux is the same as 2e-11 phot. In other words, the Photonis tube has an EBI of 2 if you're comparing it against Harris/ITT/L3 tubes.
View Quote
Link Posted: 3/18/2019 2:41:16 AM EDT
Awesome video, exactly what I have been looking for. Thanks for putting it together!
Link Posted: 3/18/2019 4:55:56 AM EDT
Neat video, thanks for sharing!
Link Posted: 3/18/2019 8:27:28 AM EDT
Great vid, thanks for posting.
Link Posted: 3/18/2019 8:58:35 AM EDT
It’s clear to me you work for photonis, L3 and Harris.  How dare you spend your money and use your time for this test that’s clearly a sham due to improper camera settings......

Edit.  Sorry meant to say thanks for taking MORE of your time to do this .  Pretty cool
Link Posted: 3/18/2019 10:06:25 AM EDT
Awesome dude.
Link Posted: 3/19/2019 7:12:10 PM EDT
Nice video and side by side comparison!

I like the white phosphor, looked to me the L3 could see through the tree better for target/threat identification, the Photonis would be fine for me since I would just be navigating terrain and hunting but when the time comes to upgrade my Gen 2+ WP, if I can swing it, the L3 would be nice for the being able to make out an animal or such that's not fully in the open a little better.
Link Posted: 3/19/2019 7:14:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2019 7:21:56 PM EDT
The L3 seemed somehow sharper and better resolution/separation. Would be my first choice
Link Posted: 3/19/2019 7:23:31 PM EDT
Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 9:33:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2019 9:42:42 AM EDT by will-1]
Thanks everyone, sincerely much appreciated.

My take on these three is the Photonis Echo & Harris HP+ are closest to being same class or category. The buying decision recommendation would be pick Echo if you want WP and if extreme low light is not important. If you don’t care about WP and want the best all around performance in that price range go HP+ (Or L3 thin filmed). If you want the best and can spend it then go high spec L3 filmless WP/GP.

Now I’m curious how L3 filmless GP & WP would compare specs being close to equal. How much of an effect from the phosphor color by itself. If someone else has both, that would be a good one, at least you know you’ll have 1 view (me), lol.
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 10:46:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2019 10:46:35 AM EDT by lilMAC25]
Appreciate the info, Will! Good stuff
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 11:24:51 AM EDT
Thanks for all time and effort on this Will, you make great videos. This one is really well done with the side by side editing and will be very helpful for new people trying to research

You already know how much you've helped me but I'll say it again. Thanks brother!
Link Posted: 3/20/2019 12:47:32 PM EDT
Back at you brother


Can't wait to see your post with your Intens BNVD-UL's come in seeing how you got L3 to start with. Vic thinks pretty highly of Intens so I imagine they're going to be a lot better then Echos.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TX-Zen:
Thanks for all time and effort on this Will, you make great videos. This one is really well done with the side by side editing and will be very helpful for new people trying to research

You already know how much you've helped me but I'll say it again. Thanks brother!
View Quote
Link Posted: 3/21/2019 8:44:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2019 10:27:35 AM EDT
That is the best comparison video I have seen so far. Awesome work Will. L3 unfilmed going to be my next set for sure.
Link Posted: 3/31/2019 2:29:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2019 2:46:06 PM EDT by will-1]
Same tree used as before. This time no moon and starlight with no clouds. Princeton Tec Charge's swivel head with IR to show the scene at beginning. I had a rifle slung and waved my arms behind the tree. Bigger movements are better for low light. The Echo needed more ISO than the others and I had to edit everything on the PC for all. I feel these vids came very close to the eye. If I didn't edit the videos it would've done a huge disservice to all three devices. The raw video was way too dark. To the eye is always better than the camera. Like before, to my eyes, this represents a very good comparison of the performance differences.

My personal opinion from this weekend under low light:

L3 filmless WP and Harris HP+ GP were essentially a tie. I couldn't distinguish a significant enough difference to say one is better than the other in very low light to be honest. Against the night sky and in open areas with better light the L3 definitely provides a better image. In the dark shadows it's a lot harder gauge. It's an equalizer since most I2 devices struggle.

The Photonis Echo 4G WP had noticeably lower performance in very low light. Shadows and darker objects blended into each other more significantly than the Gen 3 devices. It would be very hard to remain passive with no IR signature trekking under canopy with the Echo. Something as small as the Charge increased performance big time however.

All three let you see in the dark. I still prefer white phosphor at this point over green but in these dark conditions the green did seem slightly brighter or perhaps contrasted better. Can't out my finger on it. The Harris HP+'s still have my respect in very low light, the L3 filmless WP is of course also very good, and the Echo is lacking.

**edit - replaced with 1080 version
Low Light Comparison Echo 4G vs Harris HP+ vs L3 Filmless
Link Posted: 3/31/2019 5:37:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2019 9:20:06 PM EDT
I was really curious how the L3 filmless WP was going to do in very low light. I wasn’t expecting magic or miracles of course. I feel it performs as expected for those conditions. I know these tubes and night vision / thermal all have their limits. The L3 is by far the best of all of my tubes.

The HP+’s in my bnvd are no slouch and hold their own. I was glad to see they did just as good in pitch black as the L3. Finalizes my decision to keep the BNVD with the HP+’s in them. I’m a L3 filmless WP convert for sure and will be getting another one for duals.

The videos like before rank them visually for anyone to see.
Link Posted: 3/31/2019 9:40:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2019 10:27:09 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 3/31/2019 10:14:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2019 10:17:35 PM EDT by MunnyShot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:
I was really curious how the L3 filmless WP was going to do in very low light. I wasn’t expecting magic or miracles of course. I feel it performs as expected for those conditions. I know these tubes and night vision / thermal all have their limits. The L3 is by far the best of all of my tubes.

The HP+’s in my bnvd are no slouch and hold their own. I was glad to see they did just as good in pitch black as the L3. Finalizes my decision to keep the BNVD with the HP+’s in them. I’m a L3 filmless WP convert for sure and will be getting another one for duals.

The videos like before rank them visually for anyone to see.
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Saying to myself "I'm happy with my GP ITT/Harris HP+" "I'm happy with my GP ITT/Harris HP+"..... Great vid
Link Posted: 3/31/2019 10:50:53 PM EDT
My HP+’s with specs 64lpmm/29+ do great. They’re all around fantastic tubes as I’m sure yours are.

I debated on posting the vids even “doctored” because someone who hasn’t seen what I2 looks like when it’s really dark might think all three suck, lol. It can be tough to really show it and probably why a certain 3 letter company likes to use a green filter on day shots

Watching the first vid and then this one goes to show the stark difference in performance between lots of and little light.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:

Saying to myself "I'm happy with my GP ITT/Harris HP+" "I'm happy with my GP ITT/Harris HP+"..... Great vid
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/1/2019 1:25:56 AM EDT
Thanks for the video Will , very intersting !

Tbh I thought the Echo would do worst than that.

Are you planning on doing some comparisons with these 3 tubes ?

JB.
Link Posted: 4/1/2019 9:46:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/1/2019 9:48:48 AM EDT
No more comparisons on these three tubes on the forum. Don’t want to keep beating the horse if you know what I mean.

To sum it up for you:

Go Echo 4G WP for well priced white phosphor. Performance is good.

Go HP+ or L3 thin filmed (ask for hand selected or get as high of specs as possible) for better overall performance in all conditions. Green phosphor is priced better.

Go L3 filmless white phosphor minimum 72 lp/mm for the best performer if it’s in your budget.

The guy who wants to buy new with a 10 year warranty, just wants some night vision, and won’t be using much (not hardcore user)  I’d recommend the Echo.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JB_1:
Thanks for the video Will , very intersting !

Tbh I thought the Echo would do worst than that.

Are you planning on doing some comparisons with these 3 tubes ?

JB.
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/1/2019 9:48:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/5/2019 3:32:50 AM EDT
All pics taken using iPhone 8 with @ArmsUnlimited universal smart phone adapter. No moon just city glow. White phosphor looks amazing L3 & Photonis Echo. As you can see the Echo does real good with lights and is bluer than L3. HP+ looked amazing too but WP photographs waaaay mucho better.

Order is L3 filmless WP, Photonis Echo 4G WP, Harris HP+

















Link Posted: 4/5/2019 11:59:53 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:
Same tree used as before. This time no moon and starlight with no clouds. Princeton Tec Charge's swivel head with IR to show the scene at beginning. I had a rifle slung and waved my arms behind the tree. Bigger movements are better for low light. The Echo needed more ISO than the others and I had to edit everything on the PC for all. I feel these vids came very close to the eye. If I didn't edit the videos it would've done a huge disservice to all three devices. The raw video was way too dark. To the eye is always better than the camera. Like before, to my eyes, this represents a very good comparison of the performance differences.

My personal opinion from this weekend under low light:

L3 filmless WP and Harris HP+ GP were essentially a tie. I couldn't distinguish a significant enough difference to say one is better than the other in very low light to be honest. Against the night sky and in open areas with better light the L3 definitely provides a better image. In the dark shadows it's a lot harder gauge. It's an equalizer since most I2 devices struggle.

The Photonis Echo 4G WP had noticeably lower performance in very low light. Shadows and darker objects blended into each other more significantly than the Gen 3 devices. It would be very hard to remain passive with no IR signature trekking under canopy with the Echo. Something as small as the Charge increased performance big time however.

All three let you see in the dark. I still prefer white phosphor at this point over green but in these dark conditions the green did seem slightly brighter or perhaps contrasted better. Can't out my finger on it. The Harris HP+'s still have my respect in very low light, the L3 filmless WP is of course also very good, and the Echo is lacking.

**edit - replaced with 1080 version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwUH9rkZoYo
View Quote
After watching this on my 55" TV, I was able to see you better with green phosphor than both white phosphor tubes.

Thanks for doing this too.
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