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Posted: 12/2/2020 7:36:21 PM EDT
I'm setting up a rifle for shooting under nods. I am trying to decide which RDS to put on a high mount: Eotech 512, Aimpoint T1, or Trijicon MRO. I've heard that the T1 doesn't let much light through and is difficult to actually "see" through the optic with a PVS-14.
I'm planning to test them out (tonight or tomorrow night?) but wanted to hear some thoughts on the subject from people who shoot passively through RDS. |
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I don't think the 512 has a NV mode? I use the MRO as that is what I had prior to getting into NV and it works fine for me. I think more people prefer the EXPS to the MRO, but I will let others with experience with both to chime in over that.
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I have an EXPS3 and MRO. I like the EXPS better.
The 512 doesn't have NV setting. |
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I have an EOTech EXPS and an Aimpoint T1.
For daytime I prefer the EOTech but the reticle seems too busy for night time use. I prefer the T1 for the night and I can see through it fine (lets plenty of light in). |
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Quoted: I don't think the 512 has a NV mode? I use the MRO as that is what I had prior to getting into NV and it works fine for me. I think more people prefer the EXPS to the MRO, but I will let others with experience with both to chime in over that. View Quote what does NV mode actually mean? |
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Quoted: what does NV mode actually mean? View Quote it means that the red dot is turned down very low as to be usable with NV goggles. "day time use only" red dots will not dim enough to be properly used with NVGs. the dot will be too bright. with an NV mode, the lowest settings may not be even seen without NVGs on. some of my aimpoints, the first three clicks aren't even visible to the naked eye but they are bright enough for NVG use. |
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Hands down the EOTech EXPS3-0 has been the best passive viewer I have used or seen. Have it on a full length Hahn Engineering 1/2" riser.
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I have been using a RMR on top of a LPVO. That isn't on your list, but may be something to consider.
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Quoted: Hands down the EOTech EXPS3-0 has been the best passive viewer I have used or seen. Have it on a full length Hahn Engineering 1/2" riser. View Quote Not disputing, but what makes it the best? Just got my first NV device a few months ago. The only sight I've used passively with it so far is an Aimpoint T2. |
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The eotech reticle on my exps 3 is very nice under night vision. Its significantly more clean under the nods then when i look through it during the day.
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Quoted: what does NV mode actually mean? View Quote Settings for viewing under NODs, but absolutely nothing on the MRO since you can't see the dot on #1 setting. You can use any RDS on the lowest setting, just don't stare at it for long lengths of time of it will burn a spot onto your tube. OP: I used MRO and T1 and never had a problem shooting through the tube. Also with an infinity focus all you're going to see is a shadow of your RDS tube and a dot floating in space. I prefer Comp series Aimpoints for their battery life, rapid rolling pot switches and bomb proof housings. |
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Practically any Aimpoint coupled with the right sized mount.
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I have looked through Exps3 and it is excellent for nvg use, no doubt.
I've got a couple Aimpoint Pros, just my personal preference for all-around use and they're good too, just a hair darker I think. Put em on a 1.93" mount. |
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EoTech EXPS is best. Big optic window is forgiving, lets most light through, and an important feature nobody has mentioned yet can go from low light to NV settings at the push of a button and back. This is a really nice feature IMO.
I honestly love the MRO from the sight picture standpoint for NV because it has a nice big front lens for light, as well as multiple NV settings, but the downside is it has more noticeable parallax. It's not actually a concern in my opinion for shooting (though I would obviously prefer it be less), the issue is that if you want to use a converging zero method on IR devices as I do, you don't want parallax coming into complicate things as the advantage of converging zero is the simplicity and quickness you can zero lasers. |
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I've only used NODs once and my only point of reference is looking through my Holosun 403. It was pretty much black. Do the Aimpoints let more light through?
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The Eotech 512 has night vision settings, just no special NV button. The lowest setting isn’t visible, but shows up perfectly under nods.
I tried out all three. The Eotech’s window is amazing to look through. The MRO is pretty nice. I brought out a Holosun 503 instead of the Aimpoint, but I didn’t like it nearly as much as the MRO. The Eotech was the clear winner. |
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Comp M5 on a Unity Fast mount or an Eotech EXPS3 on a fast mount. The new UH1 will be my next one for my scorpion to try.
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Well this has been pretty much answered but I'll try and gob on a bit further. The reason I say the EXPS3-0 is "the best" is because that big square window lets in so much more light as the man said. When you use a micro dot, you pretty much only see the reticle and not much else around it. So if the target is big enough to just super-impose the reticle and shoot, good to go, but if not, the large window lets you see the scene around it. So first of all, what you can see, looking through the sight, is a much larger picture of things. Then it's a matter of lining everything up, with a head-mounted NVD, and a rifle-mounted RDS. Any round tube optic is going to take more work. The "TV" screen is much more forgiving in this regard. Especially a rapidly moving, more dynamic engagement. And I think the coatings on EOTech lenses are more transparent for this work than some other types. I have a Holosun on a back up rifle that I really like, but they are not as good at this because of the difference in coatings I suspect. On this specific model, I believe the mount is slightly higher, so when when combined with some sort of riser, you are getting a higher over-all set up which makes getting behind it that much easier. And yeah, it is nice to have a pre-set NV setting on one push, so you can instantly switch up to NV, or go back white light. So while most any RDS will work, to one degree or another, if you are wanting to set up a night fighting rifle with passive capability, I would say this RDS is the best, IMHO. But of course you have EOTech haters so some folks ain't a-gonna use them. But if we're talking about what RDS is physically the best fit for this purpose, then there it is.
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I like the Aimpoint T2 very much. Passes plenty of light, doesn't block much of the downrange scene with a big block of metal surrounding the optical parts (if you ditch the flip-open lens covers) and I prefer the rotating brightness knob to the EOTech pushbutton setup. You can crank that Aimpoint knob to the setting you want, and know that it is set they way you want, before you even start.
Have an EOTech too and it is a great sight because of the 1 moa dot and 65 moa circle. The mushy rubber push button control just isn't as positive and isn't "pre-settable" to the same degree. The Aimpoint will run for months on a battery, too, while the EOTech shuts off automatically and requires you (for NV) to press two buttons at once to wake it in the NV mode. Not infrequently, my button press timing is wrong and it wakes in daylight mode - much too bright. That said, the EOTech is a great sight too. |
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As others have alluded to, the EOTech provides the best light transmission of any RDS I've tried so far, due to both the holographic technology used, which does not require the same types of lens coatings as projected LED dots, and bears more resemblance to a fighter aircraft's HUD than most other red dot sights available on the market.
Moreover, both the housing size and shape translate to better light transmission as well as field of view--not only is the EOTech's housing and protective outer hood thin, and designed to allow some light to pass through, the rectangular shape (as opposed to circular) means that more light can get "past" the optic housing due to asymmetry between the image intensifier's field of view and the optic. A circular FOV essentially creates a concentric "blockage" that ultimately prevents more light from reaching the image intensifier's objective lens, leading to a darker overall image--even if the optic housing is only "seen" as a blur or shadow, it is still blocking valuable light from reaching the user when placed between the target and shooter. Night vision compatible EOTechs also not only have the convenient "NV" button that allows you to immediately switch between daylight brightness and passive NV use, but the buttons also "remember" the brightness settings, meaning you don't have to cycle through to find the "right" setting as much as you would on a rheostat dial. Moreover, the NV-compatible EOTechs have ten brightness settings for NV use, as opposed to the 2-4 that are common on most other dot optics, allowing you to more precisely dial the brightness for your environment and intended use. Having shot passive for quite a while, depending on environment and conditions, I've needed to dial the brightness back to the "bottom" of the NV settings in extremely dark conditions, to actually needing to go into lower visible settings in brighter environments. Our daylight optics often have 8-12 daylight brightness settings based on variability of conditions, I see no reason why our NV optics should not also. Four is less than ideal, and two pretty much only works for pistol applications. Different optics have their own advantages and disadvantages, and I use a lot of other optics, including for passive NV use, including T1s and T2s depending on what my particular needs are for that rifle--I am far from saying that the EOTech is the only serviceable optic for passive aiming use. However, if performance and capabilities for passive NV shooting are the sole consideration, EOTechs are still the best I've used by a wide margin. ~Augee |
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Eotech is pretty much the cats ass for NV use. It also happens to be kinda a shitty optic all around in my opinion, aside from that one strong point. I chose to use a Aimpoint because none of my rifles are strictly for night use
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An Eotech with NV button is hands down the best for this.
If you want a tube (or hate Eotech), then fullsize Aimpoint (Comp/PRO series). I haven't tried an MRO for this. RMRs are nice too, but not in fully passive mode. With an IR illuminator or Vampire light, the hood of the RMR disappears in the NODS and the dot looks like its floating. I hate small tube sights like T-series for passive NVG use. |
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I’ve mounted my Eotech on a Unity riser to get it up high. It looks a little awkward compared to a T1 or MRO, but it sure does work well. Thanks for all the comments.
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This begs the question, why hasn’t Eotech made a taller optic option.
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Quoted: An Eotech with NV button is hands down the best for this. If you want a tube (or hate Eotech), then fullsize Aimpoint (Comp/PRO series). I haven't tried an MRO for this. RMRs are nice too, but not in fully passive mode. With an IR illuminator or Vampire light, the hood of the RMR disappears in the NODS and the dot looks like its floating. I hate small tube sights like T-series for passive NVG use. View Quote Does the pro work as well as the comp series for passive? I used to have a m4s that I really liked and I’m thinking of picking up another one or a pro. |
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Quoted: This begs the question, why hasn’t Eotech made a taller optic option. View Quote The costs involved with designing and manufacturing a whole new optic body. They probably don't see a need for it for it as majority of people are using 1.5 to lower 1/3 height, then if more height is needed just purchase an aftermarket rail riser. |
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I’m new to night vision, but here is my thinking on why I went with the EXPS 3-0 and someone in the know please feel free to point out where I’m wrong.
I figured any optic that was tinted would not transmit light through it as effectively as the more clear EOTech. NVGs amplify available light , right? So I want as much light as possible coming through the optic if I’m shooting passively. Edit: I see the tint had already been covered above. |
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Yeah the coatings have been gone over in previous posts. As Augee said, the EOTech has much better coatings/light transmission.
On heights, yeah I think the EXPS3 is a bit taller, although I don't have the specs. It sure was a lot taller than the Holosun; I bought the spacer for it and it was still significantly lower than a stock EOTech. Well I guess it's like anything else, they're making the height the vast majority will use, and then folks like UT, KA, ADM, and MI fill in the gaps. What would you wager the percentage of guys like us, with a passive NV rifle set up, vs the Gen Pop out there? |
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EOTech only ever made a lower-1/3 cowitness variant way back in the day with the 553 SU-231/PEQ due to a USSOCOM requirement. The EXPS3-0 is the commercial version of the SU-231A/PEQ so naturally it matches the height, and EOTech introduced the lower-1/3 height in some of their other models, most of which were nowhere near as popular and/or now discontinued like the 555.
Moreover, the nominal ~1/4" height increase from absolute cowitness (1.4"-1.54" for most manufacturers) to lower-1/3 (7mm or 0.276" for EOTech) is lower than a practical riser height to have enough room for the Picatinny rail and some sort of clamping/attachment mechanism. This is why the LaRue LT110 riser design is so unusual and has the "hump" on the rear, as well as the set screw attachment method of the Wilcox .410" risers--1/2" is really the lowest you can go with a traditional riser setup, which is why they're so common, and which is why the mount had to be redesigned for the EOTech 553 relative to absolute cowitness EOTech models in order to achieve the lower-1/3 height. Once you start going above lower-1/3" however, it's less of an issue. Lower-1/3 is still generally a de-facto "standard" for most of the AR shooting community, despite gains made by the taller optic crowd, especially in recent years, however those who have been on the "tall optics" train for a while have been using various risers for years such as ARMS, KAC, LaRue, etc., without issue--it's more cost effective if aftermarket risers are available to produce the "more commonly known" heights, and guys that want to go taller still have a plethora of options, rather than re-designing and producing a brand new optic housing/mounting base. ~Augee |
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553 here. Going to order a HAHN Precision riser that someone mentioned above.
My MRO dot seems to turn into a worm through my PVS-14. It’s a early unit, maybe that’s why? I’ll try it again tonight. |
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Exps3 or a T2/M5 on Unity mounts. KAC and Reptilia work well too.
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Yeah I'm really happy with the Hahn Precision. It uses full, slide on rails, and set screws to tighten it up vertically against upper rail. Pretty slick; no protruding hardware. And since it's full length, you can still get a 3x mag behind it. I don't know what cumulative height is with EXPS3, but you can get a -14 behind it, no sweat. Binos better still.
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Quoted: Yeah I'm really happy with the Hahn Precision. It uses full, slide on rails, and set screws to tighten it up vertically against upper rail. Pretty slick; no protruding hardware. And since it's full length, you can still get a 3x mag behind it. I don't know what cumulative height is with EXPS3, but you can get a -14 behind it, no sweat. Binos better still. View Quote Which version do you have? Is there room for front and rear buis? |
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EOTech is hands-down the best when it comes to use with NODs.
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I have the full-length Hahn rail, which fits the upper rail, end to end. Yes there is plenty room for a rear BUIS, and 3x mag, but you need a short 3-slot, 1/2" riser, like the Burris for the front sight. Since I have RDS, viz laser, and IR laser, I have dropped the BUIS's on this rifle. YMMV.
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Quoted: Has anyone tried the Vortex UH-1 Gen 2 under NV? View Quote I think that's what I'm going with when my CMMG Bolt/Carrier and Barrel arrive in 3 years... As to coatings - they seem to matter a lot if running a Monacle - they seem to not matter when running Binos, as the other eye/device just fills in everything. |
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Quoted: I have the full-length Hahn rail, which fits the upper rail, end to end. Yes there is plenty room for a rear BUIS, and 3x mag, but you need a short 3-slot, 1/2" riser, like the Burris for the front sight. Since I have RDS, viz laser, and IR laser, I have dropped the BUIS's on this rifle. YMMV. View Quote |
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