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Posted: 7/18/2010 1:27:18 PM EDT
I went back and found the thread from earlier this year about using the ATN body and putting an ITT gen 3 tube in them and I'm looking for some more information about it and feedback from people who have done it.

I saw mentioned that ATN switched tube styles on them and you need to get one that has the right tube so that the new one can be put in. The ones with the PVS-7 style tube are the ones I'm looking for? How can I tell by looking at it?

Any constructive leads are appreciated.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 2:00:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 2:34:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Well aware of the POI shifts with some of these. Everything I've read about them though is that if there is a POI shift it's repeatable and I can deal with that.

Lives are not on the line here, just crops and I can't justify or afford 7-8k for a UNS-22 as much as I would like to have one, along with thermal, a suppressor for every firearm I have,........
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 5:56:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 5:59:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 7:37:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:47:58 AM EDT
[#6]
If someone really wants to learn more about these I really suggest you read the PVS-22 patent. You can Google it and it is not hard to find. It is a long read but very interesting. You will understand at the end how hard it is to do this and get it right. I did not understand what was so hard about making a clip on perform good.

So much more to it then I ever imagined and half of it I still don't understand. I am not going to rehash the ATN PS-22 thing again as we have ALL beat it into the ground. From what I have seen and read it seems about 50% have problems and 50% seem to like it.

If you want to shell out a few grand on a scope with those odds go right ahead. Just don't say you were not warned.

To answer your original question. From what I have read the older PS-22 was designed around a MX-10130 style tube. They changed it to use a Russian tube that is not as deep as the MX-10130. I don't know much more then that. LL may come along and tell you more. He posted some info a while back about this but I can't find the thread. (most likely in the archives if you want to search for it).

From what I remember him saying was the conversion was not hard but once you get the MX-10130 tube in it was not coming back out. The diameters of the two tubes may be slightly different. I know the length is different.

ETA - I found the post that refers to the tube differences. I will copy and paste the info from LL that pertains to it.



"But beware, apparently there are two housing types, one for PVS-7 type tubes and the other one for Russian short tubes (43mm diameter, non-inverted, 22mm long).
If you want to get a PS-22 for later upgrade with MX-10130C/D tube, rather avoid PS-22s with CGT tubes or make sure you get the right version. "

"The ATN uses a non-inverting tube with 43mm in diameter. This specific device was labeled as Gen2I and the tube was a Russian EPM223G-13-35V with 40 lp/mm, most likely produced by EKRAN. I think the original tube is slightly smaller in diameter than MX10130. Once you put a MX10130 in, you won't pull it back anymore, it sits there very tightly, it would require a brutal force to remove it. "
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 7:47:39 AM EDT
[#7]
I think if you email ATN and buy from them directly they can either sell you just the housing/install your tube in it too. Or sell you the type of housing you want.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:49:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Patent link?
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 5:42:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Patent link?


+1
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 8:29:07 PM EDT
[#10]
http://www.patentstorm.us/applications/pdfs/applicationId/20090052024.html

You have to sign up to read the link but it is very basic and not a big deal. A nice place to read patents on many things and not just the PVS-22. Many night vision tubes and accessories have patents. Much can be learned by reading them.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 11:15:14 AM EDT
[#11]
So from the patent the gee gaw about it seems to just be the risely prism system. I wonder if the ATN unit uses one too, or if they do without. If they don't have it then you would likely have to adjust the scope for the small optical offset between input and output images.  

Realistically however this should have no effect on the shot to shot variability the ATN unit is reported to be prone to. The only thing that would cause that or loss of zero is the tube or optics train is physically moving. It strikes me as really odd that they can build a rifle scope that holds zero but not a viewer like this.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 12:00:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Well, I think that is over simplifying it a bit but basically that is true. I have read many different opinions about the seemingly hit or miss nature of the PS-22. I was truly interested in why it seems to hold zero with some and not others. Everyone knows I can't stand ATN but this was truly a effort on my part to understand the technology.

I am FAR from a optics engineer and my biggest weakness in NV is optics. I have issues with optics and cameras. Never been any good with either. This was written by a well known guy with good experience on another forum. He does not wish for me to reveal who he is because this always stirs up a hornets nest. I am sure some here know where I got this and if you do please keep it to yourself. I am only posting it for thought and feedback.

Out of all I have read this makes the most sense to me as to why the PS-22 has issues. Again I am no engineer and it just seems plausible to me. It is written by a UK guy so that is why the English is a bit different then what we are used too. I think "telecentric" is the key and makes the most sense to me.

"PS-22 is an ATN blag of a vey good US scope that you mostly all know of.

The reason why it does not hold zero or consitency has much less to do with the mounting of the scope or its position than the deficiency of its objective lens.

When you focus the obj. lens its moves the image relative to the bore of its optical axis. So, this: if you move the image relative to the x-hair it looks like you are dead on the bulls eye of a standard target and the invisible man moves the target, be it up down, left, right etc. etc. etc. anything you do will not cure this problem. Simply clamp one on your rifle in a vice and make a pin hole filter so that everything is in focus in the DAY, now turn the focus ring, see image swimming around the x-hair in all sorts of directions, thats because the obj. is not telecentric..(google. type, search, click). That is the reason all the other companies spent a fortune trying to solve many of the problems associated with a front mounted scope... but yet again the ATN led sheep ran staright into a slaughter house of their own free will thinking these scopes are American when they are Russian or a former Russian state.

Does it not occur to you that you can not export Western night vision scopes around the globe, The Dutch, British, French, Germans, Greeks, Italians, Americans, Canadians, Scandiadians and all the rest make night scopes, nearly every indiginous counrty makes a night scope, has it never, ever occured to you why you can't buy these over the counter???!

In some cases you would get the export grant from THE COUNTRY OF MANUFACTURE.. but it is done on a case by case basis, so if I order one and your uncle Frank does it is dealt with as two seperate cases, in most cases you will get the grant but the timescale involved is between 5-12 months because Govt, agencies have to talk to each other.

Russian equipment such as ATN comes under virtually zero controll as long as the tubes in them are nearly always ineffective against Western Armies, ATN is or was run by Mark Morgorski and Mark Tarakonov, do these names mean anything or drop a hint? How can they export stuff that ITT, Litton can't but still you go like lambs to the slaughter... they must lie back and F. Kuing, psis, themselves at you... but don't be upset you allow a Russian company to sell you stuff that's American and frank Spencer is really the Queen. "
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 12:56:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Well, I think that is over simplifying it a bit but basically that is true. I have read many different opinions about the seemingly hit or miss nature of the PS-22. I was truly interested in why it seems to hold zero with some and not others. Everyone knows I can't stand ATN but this was truly a effort on my part to understand the technology.

I am FAR from a optics engineer and my biggest weakness in NV is optics. I have issues with optics and cameras. Never been any good with either. This was written by a well known guy with good experience on another forum. He does not wish for me to reveal who he is because this always stirs up a hornets nest. I am sure some here know where I got this and if you do please keep it to yourself. I am only posting it for thought and feedback.

Out of all I have read this makes the most sense to me as to why the PS-22 has issues. Again I am no engineer and it just seems plausible to me. It is written by a UK guy so that is why the English is a bit different then what we are used too. I think "telecentric" is the key and makes the most sense to me.

"PS-22 is an ATN blag of a vey good US scope that you mostly all know of.

The reason why it does not hold zero or consitency has much less to do with the mounting of the scope or its position than the deficiency of its objective lens.

When you focus the obj. lens its moves the image relative to the bore of its optical axis. So, this: if you move the image relative to the x-hair it looks like you are dead on the bulls eye of a standard target and the invisible man moves the target, be it up down, left, right etc. etc. etc. anything you do will not cure this problem. Simply clamp one on your rifle in a vice and make a pin hole filter so that everything is in focus in the DAY, now turn the focus ring, see image swimming around the x-hair in all sorts of directions, thats because the obj. is not telecentric..(google. type, search, click). That is the reason all the other companies spent a fortune trying to solve many of the problems associated with a front mounted scope... but yet again the ATN led sheep ran staright into a slaughter house of their own free will thinking these scopes are American when they are Russian or a former Russian state.

Does it not occur to you that you can not export Western night vision scopes around the globe, The Dutch, British, French, Germans, Greeks, Italians, Americans, Canadians, Scandiadians and all the rest make night scopes, nearly every indiginous counrty makes a night scope, has it never, ever occured to you why you can't buy these over the counter???!

In some cases you would get the export grant from THE COUNTRY OF MANUFACTURE.. but it is done on a case by case basis, so if I order one and your uncle Frank does it is dealt with as two seperate cases, in most cases you will get the grant but the timescale involved is between 5-12 months because Govt, agencies have to talk to each other.

Russian equipment such as ATN comes under virtually zero controll as long as the tubes in them are nearly always ineffective against Western Armies, ATN is or was run by Mark Morgorski and Mark Tarakonov, do these names mean anything or drop a hint? How can they export stuff that ITT, Litton can't but still you go like lambs to the slaughter... they must lie back and F. Kuing, psis, themselves at you... but don't be upset you allow a Russian company to sell you stuff that's American and frank Spencer is really the Queen. "


He's sort of right. The "telecentric" issue is what the risely prism solves. That being said this should have no bearing on it loosing zero in the first place. Basically, what the risely prism does is move the image created by the intensifier tube, and allow a technician to center that image with respect to the bore of the device (if I read the patent right) IF this is not present, the output image is shifted in the X/Y axes by some small amount since the image intesifier tube isn't an optical lens, rather it takes an input image and converts it to an output image,  but the output image doesn't have to have much relation to the input image, though usually they are pretty close. So essentially if you don't have that prism the output image will likely be off the input image axis, and thus when you shoot you will also be off. That being said the risely prism isn't some magic voodo, and it has been used previously in other day/night devices as well. So he is a bit off base about this being some uber hard problem to solve.

My GUESS as to why the ATN units loose zero is that their focusing mechanism on their unit is somehow wobbly or shoots loose etc. and has nothing to do with the tubes used (except that the tube or part of the optical train moves around).

As for throwing the Russians under the bus, well they have a long history of making good looking crap for export and keeping the decent stuff for themselves. The entire Russian arms industry did this. Basically take the rejects and sell them abroad. That being said if the tube actually meets a spec, then it meets a spec, its usually a lower spec than western tube, but they also cost less.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 3:35:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
As for throwing the Russians under the bus, well they have a long history of making good looking crap for export and keeping the decent stuff for themselves. The entire Russian arms industry did this. Basically take the rejects and sell them abroad. That being said if the tube actually meets a spec, then it meets a spec, its usually a lower spec than western tube, but they also cost less.
I cannot completely agree because Americans do the same - keep the good stuff for themselves and let FOM limited crap for export.
Just like Americans, Russians, too have export regulations on night vision equipment. Their procedure is not based on FOM but on minimum allowed distance between micro-channels on MCP. I believe they cannot export anything over 350 micA/lm sensitivity if my memory serves me right.

To sum it up, people who look through an ATN scope and claim all Russian tubes to be crap are equal to an European looking through an old NVPS-10 with MX-9916 Gen2 and then claiming all US tubes being POS.

Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:15:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:27:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Not at all Karma. I was actually posting things others have said. I am well aware some Russian gear is actually very good. But as Harlikwin and LL pointed out they keep most of the really good stuff for themselves. We are no different. Russian housings can be top notch. Tubes in my experience can be hit or miss. I have seen very good ones and some really crappy ones. My experience with Russian tubes is very limited.

My purpose was to get others opinions. I would like to hear what others believe the issue may or may not be with this scope. It is just very strange that half of the people seem to feel it is OK and the other half say it is junk. I simply was trying to do some research and determine why.  

As most know I will never buy anything ATN so I have little choice other then to look at reviews of it from fellow shooters that have a high level of experience with other top notch gear to compare it with.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:37:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Aren't the housings for the 740-760's Russian?
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:48:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Aren't the housings for the 740-760's Russian?


Yes, They are also very good housings.

The Russians and BelRussians can and Do make some very high end quality gear. But, How many D-740 or 760's sold in the US have you ever seen with a Russian tube ? I am sure a few exist but the VAST majority use a US tube.

As has been noted the Russians can and do make high quality tubes but they keep the good one for themselves. Much of the export tubes I have had a chance to see were pretty low end. As I have said and admit my use of Russian tubes is very limited.

We have easy access to Gen 3 here in the US hence with have little need for Russian tubes. This is why you don't see a lot of them except in low end gear such as ATN.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:54:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:55:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Yes, They are also very good housings.

The Russians and BelRussians can and Do make some very high end quality gear. But, How many D-740 or 760's sold in the US have you ever seen with a Russian tube ? I am sure a few exist but the VAST majority us a US tube


Very true Dino!

Link Posted: 7/21/2010 6:20:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Aren't the housings for the 740-760's Russian?


Yes, Dedal makes them and housings/glass have been pretty darn good. No loss of zero to report with several hundreds of units I personally know about with ITT tubes. There ARE several "other" Russian factories that make "other" body housing for "other" NV companies.

To all, we have already been down this path of the PS-22 and it's been beat to death. We ALL know it's a hit or miss with this system and we've already had two LONG threads on this subject matter. (One now archived). Even Last Lancer recently experienced the dreaded POA/POI shifts along with Wes1 on one of his units and as for me...Well I'll keep out of more fuel for the fire as I have not seen one work yet with several LE Dept's I personally work with. I do not wish to get called up in the middle of the night any more.  So before this gets out of hand with mud getting slung, the OP has asked what Gen 3 tube can go on this system. He has been warned of the hit or miss with these systems and if folks want to start another thread on other topic matters please do so but let's keep on topic for the OP.

NV Moderator


Actually I really don't mind as I've picked up a good bit of info in the last few posts, not exactly what I was looking for but info none the less.

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