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Posted: 12/19/2005 6:58:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 8:18:22 AM EST by secondofangle]
Edited this post to try to get some idea of whether the troubles with SA M1As are isolated incidents or frequent occurrences....

Just got a new SOCOM and can't take it apart, specifically the bolt handle thingie, to get the bolt out. I recall that with my first M1 10 yrs ago, I had trouble the first time, but this is much worse. Just can't get te damned thing to line up with the slot. So I figure I just gotta shoot ti some more to get some wear on the parts, unless anyone has any bright ideas?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:59:50 PM EST
read the manual.
If I can figure it out I'm pretty sure you can
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:01:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 4:24:10 AM EST by secondofangle]
dude, it's not a matter of knowing how to do it! It's a matter of being able to ram the thing into the slot. Have you ever done it on a brand new one?

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:45:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 4:46:52 AM EST by twonami]
Does a SA SOCOM16 count?
ETA: mine was a POS
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:12:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By twonami:
Does a SA SOCOM16 count?
ETA: mine was a POS



Since you know as well as I do that if one firearm is bad they all suck categorically.

Just like all AR's jam.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:31:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thekatar:

Originally Posted By twonami:
Does a SA SOCOM16 count?
ETA: mine was a POS



Since you know as well as I do that if one firearm is bad they all suck categorically.

Just like all AR's jam.





Sorry, But two isn't lying when he says his is a piece of shit, and it gives new meaning to the word "Suck"
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:34:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:36:14 AM EST by twonami]

Originally Posted By Thekatar:

Originally Posted By twonami:
Does a SA SOCOM16 count?
ETA: mine was a POS



Since you know as well as I do that if one firearm is bad they all suck categorically.

Just like all AR's jam.


I never said yours or anyone else's was a POS but rather mine was a POS.
I sincerly hope you have better luck than me if you own one.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:54:24 AM EST
I don't think you're lying - I think you got a bad rifle.

But I have noticed that instead of posting a thread like "My Shitty SOCOM Experience" and leaving it at that, you post about your shitty SOCOM experience in every SOCOM-related thread.

It would be legitimate if the guy asked, "M1A SOCOM - Opinions?" but the guy asked how to pop the op-rod out. All of us here with any M1A experience know that the op-rod can be a real bitch to get out, whether it's a SOCOM or an all-USGI M14 clone.

Maybe you should just add a sig line to your profile:

"My M1A SOCOM really sucked."
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:05:07 AM EST
Well, since this spiralled into the usual "SOCOM is a piece of shit" thread and no one helped with your question,here goes. The op rod dismount is often tight on new M1As until they get a bit of use on them. Using a thin regular screwdriver with the blade wrapped in tape to protect the finish, you can apply a little encouragement from the rear when you have the op rod lined up.Won't hurt anything as long as you don't go apeshit with it. After disassembling once or twice and sending some rounds downrange, you will probably be able to break it down without the help of tools.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:14:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 7:15:52 AM EST by twonami]

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
I don't think you're lying - I think you got a bad rifle.

But I have noticed that instead of posting a thread like "My Shitty SOCOM Experience" and leaving it at that, you post about your shitty SOCOM experience in every SOCOM-related thread.

It would be legitimate if the guy asked, "M1A SOCOM - Opinions?" but the guy asked how to pop the op-rod out. All of us here with any M1A experience know that the op-rod can be a real bitch to get out, whether it's a SOCOM or an all-USGI M14 clone.

Maybe you should just add a sig line to your profile:

"My M1A SOCOM really sucked."


it was 2 shitty rifles I got
my aplogies if I pissed in anyones M1A koolaid
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:57:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Well, since this spiralled into the usual "SOCOM is a piece of shit" thread and no one helped with your question,here goes. The op rod dismount is often tight on new M1As until they get a bit of use on them. Using a thin regular screwdriver with the blade wrapped in tape to protect the finish, you can apply a little encouragement from the rear when you have the op rod lined up.Won't hurt anything as long as you don't go apeshit with it. After disassembling once or twice and sending some rounds downrange, you will probably be able to break it down without the help of tools.



Thanks, man, that helps. Other than ramming it (gently) against a soft 2x4 last night, I didn't try any tools for fear of marring the damned thing up. I'll try your suggestion, or just fire it some more - doesn't get that dirty anyway, really, I'm just ANAL about cleaning.

As for the SOCOM SUCKING, I'd like to know what ar ethe reasons for this opinon, so I encourage someone to take up the offer to put a post "SOCOMS SUCK" so that the rest of us can evaluate your experience. Perhaps you can save someone like me from buying one.

All I can say is that I was WON OVER by the feel of it. I quite like the trend toward shorter rifles, partly b/c I have a bum shoulder and have difficulty with offahnd firing of front heavy guns (not that the SOCOM is not front-heavy, but it feels better than a standard issue one to me). I smacked a deer pretty hard with it this year, and was satisfied. Don't know what I'm missing regarding their "suckage", but would like to know.

I do have a hunting buddy that has the 18" scout version, and his trigger mechanism/sear shitcanned soon after he got his, but SA fixed it immediatley. And when I fu**ed up my receiver on my other SA M1 with an aftermarket POS scope mount, I shipped it to them and they retapped it for free, so I've been happy with customer service.

Another buddy has a Norinco M1a and he's not happy with it, partly b/c of the workmanship - especially that stupid looking excuse for a flash-hider on the front of it.

So, I'm open to specifics as to why the SOCOM sucks. I've offered my own close experiences. I guess I just feel that for the price, it's a pretty damned good american made gun with a nice history behind it.

XOXO, SOA

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:09:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 1:12:51 PM EST by twonami]

Originally Posted By secondofangle:

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Well, since this spiralled into the usual "SOCOM is a piece of shit" thread and no one helped with your question,here goes. The op rod dismount is often tight on new M1As until they get a bit of use on them. Using a thin regular screwdriver with the blade wrapped in tape to protect the finish, you can apply a little encouragement from the rear when you have the op rod lined up.Won't hurt anything as long as you don't go apeshit with it. After disassembling once or twice and sending some rounds downrange, you will probably be able to break it down without the help of tools.



Thanks, man, that helps. Other than ramming it (gently) against a soft 2x4 last night, I didn't try any tools for fear of marring the damned thing up. I'll try your suggestion, or just fire it some more - doesn't get that dirty anyway, really, I'm just ANAL about cleaning.

As for the SOCOM SUCKING, I'd like to know what ar ethe reasons for this opinon, so I encourage someone to take up the offer to put a post "SOCOMS SUCK" so that the rest of us can evaluate your experience. Perhaps you can save someone like me from buying one.

All I can say is that I was WON OVER by the feel of it. I quite like the trend toward shorter rifles, partly b/c I have a bum shoulder and have difficulty with offahnd firing of front heavy guns (not that the SOCOM is not front-heavy, but it feels better than a standard issue one to me). I smacked a deer pretty hard with it this year, and was satisfied. Don't know what I'm missing regarding their "suckage", but would like to know.

I do have a hunting buddy that has the 18" scout version, and his trigger mechanism/sear shitcanned soon after he got his, but SA fixed it immediatley. And when I fu**ed up my receiver on my other SA M1 with an aftermarket POS scope mount, I shipped it to them and they retapped it for free, so I've been happy with customer service.

Another buddy has a Norinco M1a and he's not happy with it, partly b/c of the workmanship - especially that stupid looking excuse for a flash-hider on the front of it.

So, I'm open to specifics as to why the SOCOM sucks. I've offered my own close experiences. I guess I just feel that for the price, it's a pretty damned good american made gun with a nice history behind it.

XOXO, SOA



Your feelings for the way it felt and all that are exactly how I felt till this soap opera started:
click for my SOCOM suckage
Ask dpmmn, he was a witness to much of my suckage and angst.
Like I said earlier. I sincerly hope you have better luck than I did. I would get another one but I just don't trust them on M1A rifles. They also never ever returned my e-mails and they were completely polite.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:23:48 AM EST
12 of 13 people say their SA works just fine, but the 95% confidence interval is wide - 64% to 99.8% - which means that we can be 95% certain that the true rate of non-breaking SA M1As is somewhere in that range. If more people vote, we can get a more precise estimate (narrower 95% CI)!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:37:56 AM EST
95% CI is now 66% to 99.8%, creeping up there slowly but surely.

The problem with these forums is that you get one guy who had bad luck (bad luck is everywhere) making a big fuss about how some product sucks, and you lose perspective for how often the product DOESN'T suck - the hits (lemons) are recorded, the misses are not.

This problem is compounded by the fact that you're more likely to make a lot of noise if you're pissed off about something, and in fact you're more likely to respond to a poll or survey if you're all mad about a bad expereince - and this further makes it look like something is worse than it is, even based on a poll/survey.

So, hopefully with this poll will help clarify what percentage of SA M1As have been lemons, thereby diluting out the [loud] voices of the few who are pissed off because they've had problems with theirs.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:07:36 AM EST
I voted - my story is posted HERE
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:50:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 9:52:38 AM EST by twonami]
Maybe the question should be has your post 2000 SA M1A broke.
I'm pretty sure they made a fine rifle once but lately, I'm not so sure. I wouldn't mind having one made before 2K.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:23:47 AM EST
1 NO, NEVER FOR A LOADED MODEL
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:56:34 PM EST
got sent back twice both on my nickel! First time it was malf'ing and leaving metal shavings in the receiver, the replaced the POS oprod with a GI. Second time was when it started doubling, they replaced the receiver that time. Still shoots big groups even with a NM barrel, gas cylinder welded and a trigger job. My next step will be to glass bed it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:25:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 1:26:03 PM EST by secondofangle]
sounds like you might be better off turning it into glass....

One theme here seems to be that if you get a good one you're fine, but if you get a lemon, you're screwed over and over and over...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:53:31 PM EST
Got two. An 18" scout and a standard. The scout is mostly non GI parts, the standard is an older mainly GI parts rifle. Both run flawlessly. No complaints.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:55:53 PM EST
Standard M1A. About 1000-1500 rounds through it. No issues.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:10:58 PM EST
Why can't I vote "Lemon" as many times as I had to send it back to "fix"?

BIGGER_HAMMER
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:22:07 PM EST
Haven't had a problem yet that I couldn't fix
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:52:28 PM EST
I've had three M1As. None have so much as hiccuped.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:27:13 PM EST
One minor problem with a SA Standard preban--the extractor ripped the head off of a case, the rest of the case had to be removed from the chamber. I was using some Squires-Bingham ammo that a friend had loaned me. I threw out the rest of the ammo and the rifle has never had another problem.

My SA Bush preban has never had any problems at all.


Steve
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:50:34 PM EST
3 M1As, 2 all USGI, 1 not. Other than replacing the crappy extractors with USGI, no problems at all.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:52:02 PM EST
I bought an M1A standard last year and had to send it back not once, not twice, but three different times. I finally got a working rifle in early February, after purchasing it in early November. They replaced several parts, including an out-of-spec receiver.

The rifle, in its intended format, is a fine piece of work. The SA flavor, however, has a failure rate way above what a Bushmaster (for example) has according to the shop I purchased the M1A at.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:32:11 PM EST
Wow! I really have to say, that a 15% multiple failure rate on these rifles is out of line. THey REALLY need to institute some quality control measures, or maybe, let's see, forge the parts that are prone to failure.

Anyone know any specifics about why they don't do this? What kind of $$$ are we talking regarding teh differnece b/t cast and forged parts?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:09:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By secondofangle:
Wow! I really have to say, that a 15% multiple failure rate on these rifles is out of line.



That's quite a scientific method you have there to base your assumptions on. 60 people responded to your poll and SA, Inc. has produced tens of thousands of rifles.

Statistics are your friends.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:49:26 PM EST
youu're absolutely right. It is clearly documented that we tend to draw too bold of conclusions from small sample sizes.

HOwever, you must admit that to have a poll of 60 folks with 15% reporting breakage of a rifle is a bit concerning, don't you agree?

I haven't done a poll like this for COlt or Bushy, but I REALLY doubt that repair rates would be as high as this...

ANd imagine if it were a car or truck - imagine if 15% of DOdge owners said that their truck fucked up in the first 6 months....

I did read a post on another board that said that USGI forged part tolerance specs were VERY difficult to achieve when these rifles were being produced for the military and that there was a VERY high inspection failure rate. Apparenlty it's a hard gun to produce ot USGI specs, and costs a bundle to do so. So perhaps it should be no surprise that SA is "cutting corners" with cast parts, and that these parts are failing more than is optimal!

SOA out.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:28:57 AM EST
maybe the statistics are an illustration that those with problems are more likely to respond to a poll such as this....

the internet phenom usually creates hysteria over much smaller numbers of actual occurances than usual.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:44:37 AM EST
also agreed. Responder bias. More likely to respond to a poll if you have strong feelings, and bad feelings are usually stronger than goood ones.

However, the question is at least objective. More so than asking "do you like your SA M1A.

Numbers from SA certainly would be interesting wouldn't they?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:23:03 AM EST
So far my 158xxx, 2003 born, standard SA has a perfect record. No trigger groups falling apart, no extractors being launched across the range, nothing.

There are people who swear that Bushmasters are crap, but mine has had only a few problems that seem to be general to the AR. On the other hand, I'll never buy another product made by FNH. Sometimes even the best companies make products that aren't up to snuff.

You just need to hope your gun wasn't made Monday morning or Friday afternoon.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:56:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By agillig:
You just need to hope your gun wasn't made Monday morning or Friday afternoon.



What kind of code do I need to look for on there to find that out?

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:45:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By agillig:

You just need to hope your gun wasn't made Monday morning or Friday afternoon.




Mine must have been made on a wednesday, it has been 100% since I got it 3 years ago.

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:25:55 PM EST
only bad mags-----not GI
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:38:31 AM EST
On my National Match the bolt fell apart the first time on the range. But, Springfield was wonderful to deal with and fed exed it in 2 weeks. My Loaded has worked without a hitch and my SOCOM is really wonderful, shoots everything I put in it and with the Aimpoint it will make consistant head shots at 300 meters with my match ammo. The SOCOM has become my grab rifle.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 8:37:47 AM EST
I had failure to feed problems with my new loaded m1a(bought 2001). Troubleshooting showed the culprit was the mag. Springfield exchanged it. No problems since then.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:08:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 9:09:27 AM EST by warlord]
I have a M1A NM, zero problems bought in 1989. I've fired 5,000 rounds.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:50:59 PM EST
I have a loaded M1A. I'm on barrel number 3. No I didn't shoot them out. I sent the rifle back twice because the first two barrels had scored chambers from the reaming. Apparently it takes too much time to clean the chips out before the final ream.

(and i only noticed the really bad chamber reaming because of the partial case head seperation)

I still have the rifle and don't plan on selling it. My non USGI parts are receiver, barrel, op rod, flash hider.
Also the Springfield customer service is pretty good as far as willingness to listen and do something. I wish they were perfect out of the box.

I will buy an M1A again, but it will be an LRB.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:31:48 AM EST
I have a all USGI M1A NM. It came as a complete rifle from springfield inc, but was redone by the guy who does Fulton Armorys glass beding. Never had a single problem. Does sub moa at 100 yards.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:38:36 AM EST
I am sorry that you cant break down your rifle, that being said you need a "show results " option.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:49:55 PM EST
I have 4 1980's M1A's and 3 post ban ,a 97' and 2 from 2003, never a hiccup from any of them in over 14,000 rds ! collectively


Longhunter

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:35:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 6:38:39 PM EST by Optik45]
For $1500-2000 there shouldnt even be a question of reliability. End of Story
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:41:12 PM EST
Yes, Optik........ they should. My M1a bush-rifle broke the first time out. The trigger pin slipped out so far... that I could not take the rifle apart. Needed a gunsmith.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:43:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Optik45:
For $1500-2000 there shouldnt even be a question of reliability. End of Story


+1500-2000
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:42:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By m-dc:
I am sorry that you cant break down your rifle, that being said you need a "show results " option.



Just click on 'Vote' without selecting any options....
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:47:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By longhunter:
I have 4 1980's M1A's and 3 post ban ,a 97' and 2 from 2003, never a hiccup from any of them in over 14,000 rds ! collectively


Longhunter




This is reassuring but doesn't negate the votes of 175 people. If the 20% breakage rate of the poll is correct, then it implies that on average a person has to have 5 springfields before on average he gets one that breaks.

It also reinforces the fact that as humans, we have far too much confidence in small samples - like you have 3 friends who all have Rugers that work fine, so you assume that a Ruger is a good gun. You need a much larger sample to get a reliable estimate of the truth.

And the sad truth from this poll is that SPringfields seem to have an unacceptable high failure rate these days.

perhaps you have bene lucky because the maority of yours are early models [presumably] with mostly USGI parts?

SOA out.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:20:50 AM EST
First let me say there is nothing wrong with CAST parts as long as they are in spec. I myself would rather have the USGI forged due to the quality control they went through. But an out of spec Forge part is a paper weight just like a Cast out of spec part. The rifle isn't malfunction because its got Cast parts. Only because they are out of spec. There was USGI Flash Suppressors that was cast. But casting is cheaper to do. Forging takes $$$$$$$$ Look how long it took for us to finally get a Forged reciever on the market ( LBR) and look at the cost. While I haven't had any problems out of a 2000 Loaded yet, I wish they get there act together on the Quality control issue. Extractors and dimples depth. Bolt rollers comeing off with ring snapping. Thats bad install or bad materials in the first place. I love the M14 platform. Semper Primus , Wardawg
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:11:12 PM EST
I have an early SA M1A with all US GI parts. Never, ever failed to perform. Mine is just as reliable as my FAL.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:37:52 AM EST
Never
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