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Posted: 11/1/2015 8:33:34 AM EST
Hi guys...

just an advisory. Hope this helps...

I was reloading .380 into Prvi Partisan cases, headstamp "IK 03" over "9x17". This was a bunch of cases from some factory new Prvi ammo I had purchased. When seating primers many of the cases felt 'funky'. I rely on a RCBS hand primer so I can feel primers as they seat. On inspection i noticed many of the primers were not seated properly. I'm thinking "WTF?!?!?!" since I felt these seat (or so I thought). I ended up depriming and attempting to reprime again. No joy. I'm thinking "hey, maybe its my technique", so I took a few of these and repeatedly attempted to primer correctly. After as many as six attempts I could not get a primer to seat correctly into those cases. Either the primer is sticking up proud of the case head, or the primer is flattened. For what its worth, the federal small pistol primers I was using seated fully, without issue, into blazer brass, rem, and win cases without issue (same lot of primers).

So, I'm not sure what is going on with these cases, but the primer pockets are definitely out of spec. something hinky going on there. And close inspection shows 13 of 50 cases with varying degrees of primer pocket issues. I have other boxes of the factory loads ammo and the factory loads look okay. But it beats me how the factory stuffs primers in these cases and gets them to look good when the pockets are so fubar.

Its only 380. And I've chucked the lot. But I've had issues in past with Prvi Partisan ammo (then using a "nny" headstamp) in .308 with out of spec brass and bad loads (as in so freaking hot the primers were completely flattened and recoil was about twice what it should be). I'm totally done with PP ammo. This isn't anything earthshaking, but if the info saves someone aggravation its been worth the post.

Fro
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 8:38:26 AM EST
I've only had that happen to me with a rare case or three when I hand prime .45 ACP Winchester casings. I don't even investigate anymore once I see the primer still there and not going anymore, and toss the bad cases into the scrap bucket.
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 9:21:06 AM EST
That's a shame, they've been my go to source for brass for some of my milsurps, I would buy 2-3 boxes of live ammo for the brass like you did. 8mm Mauser, 7.5x55 swiss.

It seems bad brass has not only infected the US market but also the foreign market. I've been very leery as of the last few years due to pushed up production. I was even seeing defects in brand new Winchester and Remington bulk brass. The Rem .30 Krag neck that delaminated, unrolling the neck like a cinnamon roll.

You are your own QC more than ever before.
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 11:48:41 AM EST
I don't have any issues with PPU brass but I haven't loaded any .380s yet.

You seem pretty knowledgeable but I have to ask. Could it be that the .380 brass you were working with had crimped primers?

It's sounds like to me if you were to run a small primer pocket uniformer into those they would work or if you don't have a uniformer maybe try a small primer pocket swage tool.

Motor
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 12:38:28 PM EST
IK headstamp is Ignam, out of Bosnia, not PPU out of Serbia. Not to mention the brass is dated as 2003.

Ignam doesn't list .380/9x17 as a caliber that they produce, and since it is marked with a year, it is likely that this was a contract for a police force, or government agency.
Since Ignam doesn't list this caliber, it is possible that either they made a special run of .380 brass for this contract, or, they bought the brass from PPU and it was stamped IK for them.

If it was the former option, it is possible that PPU bought the brass from Ignam, and then loaded it for their use. If it is the latter option, it is possible that PPU is now finally using this brass they've had around for the last 12 years.



In my experience, IK brass has tight primer pockets, as well as (at least in .223) undersized primer holes.

It is likely that the pockets are tight, and since you aren't doing any prep work to them, you're crushing primers due to it. I would say to try swaging one or two, or using a crimp cutting tool, and see what your results are.

Obviously, that's a lot of work for common .380, but I would guess that solves your problem.



I don't think this comes down to PPU having bad brass, it just comes down to tight primer pockets.
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 1:21:20 PM EST
primers were not crimped, but on the off chance that there was some fit interference, I ran a chamfer tool around the primer pocket to bevel the entry to the pocket. No Joy. The damned primers still didn't fit. No. Primers were not crimped.

As for the IK versus Prvi issue, I don't know what to tell you. I've got a half dozen boxes of new in box .380 fmj, and all of them contain IK 03 9x17 brass with red primer sealant. These have been around for maybe two or three years. Old brass? Quite possibly.


Interestingly enough, I just checked boxes. They are identical to this image:

Note the "NNY" headstamp image on the box. Yet all my boxes are filled with IK brass. Boxes do say made in Serbia....

Link Posted: 11/1/2015 3:06:53 PM EST
So no measurements.
How hard is it to compare dia and depth? to other cases?
measure your primers?

Yet you blow on a reputable manufacturer.

I cannot fathom how a massive manufacturer is using specially designed primers.
O yeah they ordered millions of primers specifically .003 short.

How do primer pockets get shorter during firing? in a .380?

I will agree that PPU ammo is always 'hot'. I would never recommend to use them in a old, or antique, or a weapon of unknown history.

Link Posted: 11/1/2015 4:53:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By frozenny:
Note the "NNY" headstamp image on the box. Yet all my boxes are filled with IK brass. Boxes do say made in Serbia....

View Quote
That's screwy. ANY Prvi brass should be marked either PPU or ???. IK-marked brass is from a different manufacturer in a completely different country.

I'd be suspicious of the vendor in this case, because the headstamps don't match either the brand on the box AND they aren't marked as commercial ammunition.
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 6:17:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2015 6:19:40 PM EST by frozenny]
motopic... I just love the positive post. Thanks man..

Yup. No measurements. Sorry, I don't care that much. I'm reloading some plinking loads for a 380 Glock 42, not trying to assemble top notch long range loads for use in a HS Precision at 1100 yards.

Here's what I know: I bought 10,000 federal small pistol primers. Thus far the first 3000 or so have fit just fine in everything from 380, to 9mm, to 40's to even some small primered .45 ACPs. They've worked in 32-20's, and even in some .310 Martini cadet loads. So, given that 3000 of them have worked in just about everything on earth, but a dozen or so won't fit into this Prvi Partizan marketed mystery IK brass 380, I'm willing to take a huge leap of faith and say its likely the brass, not the primers.

Secondly, your assertion that they are ordering short primered brass is , well stupid. This is is one of those cases where reading is fundamental. No one has claimed its a specific lot of brass they've ordered this way. I've got a little over a dozen that simply will not seat a primer properly. The remaining 30 plus cases seat fair enough. Its a matter of deduction and reasoning to thereby assume that there is something inconsistent with the brass. Again, there are only two components at work here. The brass and the primers. Check the paragraph above.

How hard is it to compare? Not all that much. However, its a small lot of junk .380 brass. I could spend 30 more minutes micro analyzing the brass. its obvious some of it is either tight or short. I suppose someone with more time and energy could uniform all those pockets. For that matter, I could chuck it up in my 10x22 lathe and get it all spot on. Quite simply, I don't care enough about it to bother. The Prvi Partizan/IK brass is junked. And I started loading a small bucket of mixed Rem/Win/Blazer/Starline range pick up brass that has since given me no further problems.

It's like this: Prvi sold ammo. I bought it. it is crap. I posted here to save others aggravation. They chimed in. Its actually interesting! It looks like Prvi is either buying and loading old brass (hence the decade+ old head stamp), is subcontracting ammo manufacture, or is buying up lots of old ammo, repackaging and selling under its label. Either way, the ammo I got is somehow wrong. Which casts serious doubt onto the "reputable manufacturer" label. Take the info or leave it.

Fro

Link Posted: 11/1/2015 7:03:58 PM EST
I understand your frustration but how can you claim the "AMMO" was wrong? Did you not shoot all of it?

Did the box say good reloadable brass?

Motor
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 7:49:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
That's screwy. ANY Prvi brass should be marked either PPU or ???. IK-marked brass is from a different manufacturer in a completely different country.

I'd be suspicious of the vendor in this case, because the headstamps don't match either the brand on the box AND they aren't marked as commercial ammunition.
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By frozenny:
Note the "NNY" headstamp image on the box. Yet all my boxes are filled with IK brass. Boxes do say made in Serbia....

That's screwy. ANY Prvi brass should be marked either PPU or ???. IK-marked brass is from a different manufacturer in a completely different country.

I'd be suspicious of the vendor in this case, because the headstamps don't match either the brand on the box AND they aren't marked as commercial ammunition.



NNY is Cyrillic for PPU.


But yes, IK is from Ignam out of Bosnia, PPU is from Serbia. My guess is either PPU made the brass for Ignam, and just found a bunch of it, or they bought this brass from Ignam for cheap.
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 7:55:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/1/2015 10:18:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:



NNY is Cyrillic for PPU.


But yes, IK is from Ignam out of Bosnia, PPU is from Serbia. My guess is either PPU made the brass for Ignam, and just found a bunch of it, or they bought this brass from Ignam for cheap.
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Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By frozenny:
Note the "NNY" headstamp image on the box. Yet all my boxes are filled with IK brass. Boxes do say made in Serbia....

That's screwy. ANY Prvi brass should be marked either PPU or ???. IK-marked brass is from a different manufacturer in a completely different country.

I'd be suspicious of the vendor in this case, because the headstamps don't match either the brand on the box AND they aren't marked as commercial ammunition.



NNY is Cyrillic for PPU.


But yes, IK is from Ignam out of Bosnia, PPU is from Serbia. My guess is either PPU made the brass for Ignam, and just found a bunch of it, or they bought this brass from Ignam for cheap.

I had tried to use the cyrillic characters, but I guess they didn't come through.
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 11:37:04 AM EST
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:

I had tried to use the cyrillic characters, but I guess they didn't come through.
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By frozenny:
Note the "NNY" headstamp image on the box. Yet all my boxes are filled with IK brass. Boxes do say made in Serbia....

That's screwy. ANY Prvi brass should be marked either PPU or ???. IK-marked brass is from a different manufacturer in a completely different country.

I'd be suspicious of the vendor in this case, because the headstamps don't match either the brand on the box AND they aren't marked as commercial ammunition.



NNY is Cyrillic for PPU.


But yes, IK is from Ignam out of Bosnia, PPU is from Serbia. My guess is either PPU made the brass for Ignam, and just found a bunch of it, or they bought this brass from Ignam for cheap.

I had tried to use the cyrillic characters, but I guess they didn't come through.



Oh I see now. Yeah, it's very strange that Prvi is using Bosnian brass, especially considering they don't have the most respectable terms between them.
Link Posted: 11/2/2015 9:30:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:



Oh I see now. Yeah, it's very strange that Prvi is using Bosnian brass, especially considering they don't have the most respectable terms between them.
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Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By frozenny:
Note the "NNY" headstamp image on the box. Yet all my boxes are filled with IK brass. Boxes do say made in Serbia....

That's screwy. ANY Prvi brass should be marked either PPU or ???. IK-marked brass is from a different manufacturer in a completely different country.

I'd be suspicious of the vendor in this case, because the headstamps don't match either the brand on the box AND they aren't marked as commercial ammunition.



NNY is Cyrillic for PPU.


But yes, IK is from Ignam out of Bosnia, PPU is from Serbia. My guess is either PPU made the brass for Ignam, and just found a bunch of it, or they bought this brass from Ignam for cheap.

I had tried to use the cyrillic characters, but I guess they didn't come through.



Oh I see now. Yeah, it's very strange that Prvi is using Bosnian brass, especially considering they don't have the most respectable terms between them.

I don't think it's that. I think some funny business is going on with someone putting bulk IK rounds in Prvi boxes, or something like that.

I do NOT think that Prvi would ship in brass from Bosnia.
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 1:42:53 AM EST
There is no conspiracy theory regarding the headstamp. I bought some of the same prvi partizan brand ammo in 38 Special from Widener's. The box looks identical with the NNY headstamp on the graphic and my cases are also marked IK 03.
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 6:36:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By H53EXPERT:
There is no conspiracy theory regarding the headstamp. I bought some of the same prvi partizan brand ammo in 38 Special from Widener's. The box looks identical with the NNY headstamp on the graphic and my cases are also marked IK 03.
View Quote

I wasn't thinking "conspiracy," I was thinking "unscrupulous dealer." I can't for the life of me understand why Prvi would do that...

On the other hand, it's not "out of spec Prvi brass," it's "out of speck IK brass sold by Prvi - which isn't quite splitting hairs. Prvi is technically "responsible" for the brass, but it's not their brass and they didn't make it.

I've had issues with IK .223 cases having slightly thicker, (and maybe a tiny bit larger in diameter) rims, and their flash holes tend to be on the tight side, but the primer pockets have gauged fine. And I can't think of a reason to make Boxer brass that doesn't properly accept standard Boxer primers.
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 7:07:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:

I wasn't thinking "conspiracy," I was thinking "unscrupulous dealer." I can't for the life of me understand why Prvi would do that...

On the other hand, it's not "out of spec Prvi brass," it's "out of speck IK brass sold by Prvi - which isn't quite splitting hairs. Prvi is technically "responsible" for the brass, but it's not their brass and they didn't make it.

I've had issues with IK .223 cases having slightly thicker, (and maybe a tiny bit larger in diameter) rims, and their flash holes tend to be on the tight side, but the primer pockets have gauged fine. And I can't think of a reason to make Boxer brass that doesn't properly accept standard Boxer primers.
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By H53EXPERT:
There is no conspiracy theory regarding the headstamp. I bought some of the same prvi partizan brand ammo in 38 Special from Widener's. The box looks identical with the NNY headstamp on the graphic and my cases are also marked IK 03.

I wasn't thinking "conspiracy," I was thinking "unscrupulous dealer." I can't for the life of me understand why Prvi would do that...

On the other hand, it's not "out of spec Prvi brass," it's "out of speck IK brass sold by Prvi - which isn't quite splitting hairs. Prvi is technically "responsible" for the brass, but it's not their brass and they didn't make it.

I've had issues with IK .223 cases having slightly thicker, (and maybe a tiny bit larger in diameter) rims, and their flash holes tend to be on the tight side, but the primer pockets have gauged fine. And I can't think of a reason to make Boxer brass that doesn't properly accept standard Boxer primers.


Making the unscrupulous dealer insinuation is a conspiracy theory.

The warning is valid against Prvi if you might wind up with IK cases when you buy Prvi ammo. In either case, I think it is a fairly isolated incident and could be fixed by some minor prepping.

Someone else mentioned in another thread that Prvi and IK were one and the same until Yugoslavia broke apart. Since it dissolved in 2003, that would perfect sense since our brass is marked 03. The time frame fits. I am sure Prvi could have kept a stock pile of brass before relations got bad.
Link Posted: 11/3/2015 7:57:20 PM EST
I shouldn't have posted anything about an unscrupulous dealer in the first place. It was a thought that popped up and instead of thinking it through, I just posted it. That wasn't useful to anyone, and I shouldn't have cluttered up the thread with my baseless suspicions.

I have no argument about the OP's post being a good warning for anyone buying Prvi-packaged ammo, I just got tied up in the details. I had sort of skimmed over any post that mentioned Prvi and Igman were the same entity before the breakup of Yugoslavia. But "DUH" I should have made that connection. They are in different cities, (Užice, Serbia and Konjic. Bosnia respectively), but they are close to equidistant from Sarajevo, and pretty squarely in the middle of the former Yugoslavia. The date didn't ring a bell for me either. My bad.

OP, a primer pocket uniformer should fix this issue for you. They're inexpensive, and most come preset with a stop for the appropriate depth per SAAMI specs (Lyman's even says that in so many words).
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