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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/11/2005 7:04:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 7:06:09 PM EDT by JJREA]
A while back I posted a thread about an article in the GCA (garand collecter's association) Journal. It's a very good magazine and has alot of nuts and bolts. One of the writers in there is giving a series on getting good groups. Last time he wrote the article, He had said that the Federal American Eagle is a good load to use. I posted this information and of course many of you said no no no no. Well, there's more on this. In the latest issue he put a stipulation saying Federal doesn' t recommend this ammo in garands. So he said he was going to shoot the rest of it he had up and use the Federal made for CMP only. Federal makes an American Eagle loading for the CMP. I guess it must be a little bit different than the load they make for commercial sales. However he also recommended their Gold Medal Match ammo. Now you and I know the only loading in Gold Medal Match, at least to my knowledge, is the 168 grain BTHP. So now he's back to controversial status. Some of you say M2 ball only. But this guru is condoning Gold Medal. Then to make matters worse, I have a box of Gold Medal Match, 168 grainers and on the box it says 2800 FPS. On their website it shows, 2700 fps. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH. What is it? This is the thing that gets me, seems like in life nobody knows what the hell is going on. Now maybe I'm missing something, but why does it have to be so confusing. Plus, on top of that , I remember reading an article about the battle rifle class at thunder ranch or someplace like that and they said that the black hills gold loading, 168 grains, was recommended safe for Garands. It also states 2700 fps for that grain of bullet. And then, I've been informed on Battlerifles that Lake City M2 ball, in 69 was whimpy stuff to begin with. Under spec. Not as hot as should be. I'm starting to think I'm going to shoot whatever the heck load I want in it until it blows up. Then some of you can tell me, "I told you so". Otherwise, I may shoot crazy loads and nothing bad will ever happen. Does anybody else on here understand my pain?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:30:52 PM EDT
Idea,
adjustable gas plug (the port/allen screw type in type) set up to just cycle the action (read with the gas system tuned correctly to the load at hand, you can shot anything you want without worries of bending the gas rod.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:40:16 PM EDT
Schuster Nut

I use one in my Garand and it works great. Have to buy one for my M14.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 12:47:27 AM EDT
I remember your post...vaguely. It;s total bunk that you can;t shoot 168's in the garand. Anything up to 180's are fine.

However, it's the burning rate of powder you have to worry about. That's an X factor when it comes to factory ammo as they will often use powder slower then what's recommended for the garand.

I don't know what your confusion is as this concept is rather simple. The CMP federal or mil surp is the ONLY and I repeat ONLY ammo that I KNOW you can safely shoot in the garand.

JJ if you have any other questions, let me know. I own 6 garands and shoot mainly reloads through them. I'll help a brother out.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 2:08:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By coyote3:
Schuster Nut

I use one in my Garand and it works great. Have to buy one for my M14.



I like the mccan ind adjustable nut better, The ports are screw in types, and allows the nut to be pulled when needed and the same port just put back in. With the Schuster unit, you have to replay the adjustment game if you pull the plug off the rifle.

www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1538&title=M1+GARAND+ADJUSTABLE+GAS+SYSTEM


Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:54:29 AM EDT
It is really simple- the author of the two articles probably started shooting Federal ammo back in the day and got good results from it. He now is getting called out on the civvy/miltary ammo issue and is trying to backpedal despite the fact he was getting good results.

You can chamber and fire civilian ammo in a Garand. I can also fit a stick of TNT in the gas fill cap of my car, but that does not mean that either is safe or wise to do. Simply put, the Garand was engineered to use ammunition of a certain pressure loading. You could probably shoot Federal or any other civilian ammo many, many times without ever having a failure, but it does not change the fact that you are still shooting ammo that is beyond the pressures levels the weapon was designed for.

As has already been mentioned, simply spending $30 on a Schuster or other brand of gas nut will allow you to lower the pressures to an acceptable level, and you will neveer need to worry again.

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 3:06:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:
I remember your post...vaguely. It;s total bunk that you can;t shoot 168's in the garand. Anything up to 180's are fine.

However, it's the burning rate of powder you have to worry about. That's an X factor when it comes to factory ammo as they will often use powder slower then what's recommended for the garand.

I don't know what your confusion is as this concept is rather simple. The CMP federal or mil surp is the ONLY and I repeat ONLY ammo that I KNOW you can safely shoot in the garand.

JJ if you have any other questions, let me know. I own 6 garands and shoot mainly reloads through them. I'll help a brother out.



The confusion comes in to us non handloaders. I've never seen a list that shows what commercial loadings use the proper powder and pressure. I did read in a gun magazine once that the black hills load is made for garands. It was about a class at thunder ranch or something. Maybe I'll contact them to see. But when you buy any given box of .3006, it's not listed as to what kind of powder they use, unless I'm missing something.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:01:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 5:04:47 PM EDT by chevyrulez1]
O.K, I've been wondering about this for a while myself, and now I am going to play the devil's advocate.
Why is the Garand so damned sensitive that it can only shoot one type of bullet safely?
It must be the only rifle I know of that can only shoot Lake City ammo because that is what was made for it. Everyone says the Korean stuff is either corrosive or might blow up your gun, and everything else will either bend your operating rod or slam fire. If the Garand is that darned sensitive, then I think I might sell mine and buy something I can shoot!

I love my rifle, but I have gotten pissed about this ammo situation myself. I am starting to wonder if this fear of shooting anything is a Garand is really merited, or just urban myth and/or greatly exagerated. I think I will just shoot some american eagle or other cheap commercial stuff as needed, and then reload it to M1 specs.
I am tired of babying my rifle, and I can't afford to pay $200 for a case of LC surplus to collect dust in my basement just to have a little plinking ammo now and then. What does everyone plan to do when the surplus stuff is gone? The last I heard M2 was obsolete as a military round, and the surplus stuff isn't going to last forever.

I will tell you what the CMP manual that came with my rifle says:

"The correct ammunition for the M1 rifle is the U.S. Caliber .30 Rifle cartridge. Its military loadings include M2 Ball, M2 armor piercing, and M72 match. Commercially this cartridge is known as .30-06 Srpingfield, and is available in many different loadings. Do not attempt to use any cartridge in the M1 rifle other than those specifically designated U.S. Caliber .30 rifle or .30-'06 Springfield.
If commercial .30-'06 ammunition is used, select loadings with bullets no heavier than 180 grains. Firing bullets heavier than 180 grains is not unsafe but may develop higher residual pressures at the gas port near the muzzle. This can damage the operating rod, necessitating its replacement'

Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:31:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2005 6:00:45 PM EDT by Dano523]

Originally Posted By chevyrulez1:
O.K, I've been wondering about this for a while myself, and now I am going to play the devil's advocate.
Why is the Garand so damned sensitive that it can only shoot one type of bullet safely?
It must be the only rifle I know of that can only shoot Lake City ammo because that is what was made for it.



It boils down to one item on the rifle, and that item is the long gas rod.
The chamber pressure and the bore pressure is not the problem with standard non specific grand ammo, but if the barrel residual pressure is has when the bullet passes the gas port, which the added over the top gas system pressure will bend/twist the long gas rod. Due to this one item, the powders used for Garand loads are 4895 spec and faster burning powders.

Now back to the point that a few of us have made, If you are going to run loads that use slower burning than 4895 (powder that the action was designed for), you just need to bleed off the unneeded extra pressure, Hence a adjustable gas plug resolves this nicely.




Everyone says the Korean stuff is either corrosive or might blow up your gun, and everything else will either bend your operating rod or slam fire. If the Garand is that darned sensitive, then I think I might sell mine and buy something I can shoot!


The Garand was built to run corrosive ammo, that's way there are so many SS parts in the gas chamber section. The point to be made here is if you do shoot corrosive ammo, you need to clean the rifle, and not let the residual primer salts leach moisture out of the air and cause pitting on the parts that are not SS.

The non-corrosive PS Korean ammo just boils down to certain lots that did not store well or had brass problems, and if you stay away from these known lots, it's good ammo (I have several thousand rounds of PS just waiting to be reworked.

Personally for the price you can save, clipped KS ammo is one of the best deals going for building loads/sourcing clips. You pull the ammo down (cleaning the brass/bullets), change the primers out, and just rework the 4895 gunpowder weight that is in the ammo already to each of your rifles. The stock barrels seem to need a good jump to lands and do not favor BT bullet anyway. And, if you are running a stock USGI barrel, you really don't want to use the case more than three times to be safe.
Plus, The more that people bitch about the ammo, the cheaper the price gets (so you bitchy I will never shoot it people out there, keep up the good work)


I love my rifle, but I have gotten pissed about this ammo situation myself. I am starting to wonder if this fear of shooting anything is a Garand is really merited, or just urban myth and/or greatly exaggerated.


From the movie cable guy (stolen from water world),
Dry land is not a myth!!!!!!!
But there are a lot of armchair commando's out there talking out there ass in regards to the Korean ammo. Since we gave Korea the rifles, don't you think that we gave them the load spec to follow as well?

Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:53:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chevyrulez1:
O.K, I've been wondering about this for a while myself, and now I am going to play the devil's advocate.
Why is the Garand so damned sensitive that it can only shoot one type of bullet safely?
It must be the only rifle I know of that can only shoot Lake City ammo because that is what was made for it. Everyone says the Korean stuff is either corrosive or might blow up your gun, and everything else will either bend your operating rod or slam fire. If the Garand is that darned sensitive, then I think I might sell mine and buy something I can shoot!

Like what was posted above, it's a 60+ year old rifle with a very long and slender oprod. It was designed around a cirtain pressure which is accomplished with M2 ball specs. Better powders have been developed in the last 60 years and they are normally slower

The korean ammo is just fine for the garand and anyone who told you otherwise is a moron. Corrosive ammo is just fine also, you just have to clean the rifle


I love my rifle, but I have gotten pissed about this ammo situation myself. I am starting to wonder if this fear of shooting anything is a Garand is really merited, or just urban myth and/or greatly exagerated. I think I will just shoot some american eagle or other cheap commercial stuff as needed, and then reload it to M1 specs.

Hell it's your rifle shoot what you want in it. You have been warned

I am tired of babying my rifle, and I can't afford to pay $200 for a case of LC surplus to collect dust in my basement just to have a little plinking ammo now and then. What does everyone plan to do when the surplus stuff is gone? The last I heard M2 was obsolete as a military round, and the surplus stuff isn't going to last forever.

True, but if you can't afford the cheap surplus, are you going to afford to spend double on cheap 30-06 commerical rounds? 5/box of 30-06 ammo is a good price but the LC surplus is a bit cheaper then that so what's the problem?

BTW, ever think of re-barreling in 308? There's plenty of cheap 308 surplus out there and will be for a good chunk of my lifetime


I will tell you what the CMP manual that came with my rifle says:

"The correct ammunition for the M1 rifle is the U.S. Caliber .30 Rifle cartridge. Its military loadings include M2 Ball, M2 armor piercing, and M72 match. Commercially this cartridge is known as .30-06 Srpingfield, and is available in many different loadings. Do not attempt to use any cartridge in the M1 rifle other than those specifically designated U.S. Caliber .30 rifle or .30-'06 Springfield.
If commercial .30-'06 ammunition is used, select loadings with bullets no heavier than 180 grains. Firing bullets heavier than 180 grains is not unsafe but may develop higher residual pressures at the gas port near the muzzle. This can damage the operating rod, necessitating its replacement'

If you read this, the manual states what we have been saying. You need to keep the bullets under 180 gr and use a powder within the specs for the op rod or take the risk of damage to the rifle. You won;t blow the gun up but you run the risk of damaging it.


Link Posted: 9/13/2005 2:18:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 3:35:06 PM EDT by chevyrulez1]

Originally Posted By colt100:
BTW, ever think of re-barreling in 308? There's plenty of cheap 308 surplus out there and will be for a good chunk of my lifetime



Why does rebarreling to .308 make it any different?? Doesn't the rifle still have the same op rod? Which is another point that I didn't make. If you are shooting .30-06, then the op rod will bend with the wrong ammo, but if you re-chamber for .308, then suddenly it's O.K. to shoot any crap.
Of course I don't plan to run out and shoot 200 grain bullets with slow burning powder, but I don't think that you should have to worry about shooting a normal 150 gr load. Has anyone here ever actually bent their Op rod??
If so, I would like to hear about it. I always hear "It can", but I don't think I have ever heard "It did"
And as far as the price of ammo, yes the CMP is cheaper per round, but I can go to wally world and buy 3 boxes of AE or UMC for about 30 bucks, and reload the brass several times. To get the CMP stuff, I have to invest a couple of hundred bucks.


Link Posted: 9/13/2005 5:36:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chevyrulez1:

Originally Posted By colt100:
BTW, ever think of re-barreling in 308? There's plenty of cheap 308 surplus out there and will be for a good chunk of my lifetime



Why does rebarreling to .308 make it any different?? Doesn't the rifle still have the same op rod? Which is another point that I didn't make. If you are shooting .30-06, then the op rod will bend with the wrong ammo, but if you re-chamber for .308, then suddenly it's O.K. to shoot any crap.
Of course I don't plan to run out and shoot 200 grain bullets with slow burning powder, but I don't think that you should have to worry about shooting a normal 150 gr load. Has anyone here ever actually bent their Op rod??
If so, I would like to hear about it. I always hear "It can", but I don't think I have ever heard "It did"
And as far as the price of ammo, yes the CMP is cheaper per round, but I can go to wally world and buy 3 boxes of AE or UMC for about 30 bucks, and reload the brass several times. To get the CMP stuff, I have to invest a couple of hundred bucks.






There are several reasons to do this. In fact, if you have a garand to just strictly shoot and not in Garand Matches, this is a pretty good idea.
#1 most .308 ammo is about 100 fps less than it's .30-06 counterpart. For example: The federal gold match I mention is 2600 fps in .308 and 2700 fps in .30-06. According to their website. Same 168 grain bullet but lower pressure for the .308. You can go right down the line with every loading for every manufacture. Now, the current .308's are more in line with what the original M2 ball, .30-06 was. You understand?
#2 You are worried about enough "surplus" .30-06 being around. There is probably much more "surplus" .308 to be had, and it seems to be more prevalent with most of the ammo sales places.
#3. Everyone knows you are cooler if you shoot .308. I don't conform to this notion but there may be some truth to it.

I however, plan to shoot garand matches and want mine to shoot .30-06.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 10:51:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 10:51:38 AM EDT by JJREA]
You all need to go over to the ammo forum, and click on the thread marked, "Paging Jeff Hoffman, if you still paruse here". I realize he may not be an expert on Garands per se, but I don't know. He's pretty sharp and I'm sure has some depth of knowledge of the use of ammo in different rifles. Now as far as the other manufactures go, I don't know. I won't assume anything, but not sure if I feel like contacting all of them to find out what they know, or how they load the .30-06 ammo. Maybe some of you already have. If so, please contribute.
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