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Posted: 7/18/2009 4:19:02 PM EST
Alrighty,
So I'd like to acquire a non-AR 5.56 EBR. Now, here's what I'm considering...

XCR
MSAR STG-556
FN FS2000
Sig 556

Today at the funshow I got to handle an MSAR and an FN, and I must say they felt pretty darn nice. Maybe I have a long neck, big head, or fat cheeks...or all of the above because the optic on the STG seemed low. However, from what I understand the new E4 (what I'm looking at) has a higher optic. The FN, while having a higher optic seemed bulkier (but not cumbersome) than the "svelte" STG. The Sig seemed kind of heavy for what it is. There were no XCR's at the show.

Now, what I want to know is, who of you have any of these (or all) and have run them HARD? Who has run them in carbine classes etc? I don't expect to have to repel zombies anytime soon (I figure an alien invasion ala "V" is more likely anyway) and this won't be a SHTF rifle anyway. But I still want high quality.

So what do you have? What would you choose (and of course, why?) What have you run in classes?

Link Posted: 7/18/2009 10:09:07 PM EST
I ran the dog snot out of one of the first 120 XCR's off the production line.
Superb ergonomics. Excellent build quality and accuracy.Rugged design with the hands down best extraction system I have seen to date. Parts readily available. Easy caliber conversion.Monolithic railed upper. Reliability was 100%. I own several different 5.56 platforms.
Link Posted: 7/18/2009 10:23:31 PM EST
I think about the only other 556 I would trust my life to would be a saiga converted to pistol grip config. I know there are many fine designs out there but with most of them the spare parts situation scares me off.
Link Posted: 7/18/2009 10:28:49 PM EST
XCR
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 5:24:04 AM EST
Don't forget about:

AR-180
AR-180B (Had one and sold it, I kind of miss it)
SCAR
Daewoo K2

I personally love my SCAR



Link Posted: 7/19/2009 5:26:13 AM EST
..and don't forget about the new C93 coming out from Century. They're using HK33 parts kits and they're out there but in very limited numbers. I have one that should be here in the next few days.

Link Posted: 7/19/2009 6:20:10 AM EST
If I had any interest in 5.56 rifles, the XCR is the only one I would consider. My brother has one and the only thing that I don't like about it is that it's not a .30 cal. Runs like a top, accurate, ergonomic, and brutally simple to maintain. Very well thought out rifle.
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 8:57:28 AM EST
I love...love my MSAR. I can't say it's better than other 5.56 platforms, but it's so much fun to shoot, easy to clean, and well-balanced.

Still want an XCR, though.
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 9:41:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
Don't forget about:

AR-180
AR-180B (Had one and sold it, I kind of miss it)
SCAR
Daewoo K2

I personally love my SCAR

http://www.theplaceholder.com/forums/imagehosting/544a4541b18397f.jpg



AR-180= Parts issues
AR-180B= would rather have a chrome lined barrel
SCAR= NO interest whatsoever.
'Woo= I was seriously considering a K2, but parts availability is an issue

As to my choices..
MSAR... Made in USA, parts seem readily available, customer support is very strong.
FN... High quality rifle, made by a HUGE company that isn't going anywhere
XCR...Made in USA, good ergos, modular
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 11:24:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
Don't forget about:

AR-180
AR-180B (Had one and sold it, I kind of miss it)
SCAR
Daewoo K2

I personally love my SCAR

http://www.theplaceholder.com/forums/imagehosting/544a4541b18397f.jpg



AR-180= Parts issues
AR-180B= would rather have a chrome lined barrel
SCAR= NO interest whatsoever.
'Woo= I was seriously considering a K2, but parts availability is an issue

As to my choices..
MSAR... Made in USA, parts seem readily available, customer support is very strong.
FN... High quality rifle, made by a HUGE company that isn't going anywhere
XCR...Made in USA, good ergos, modular


I had a MSAR and a XCR, sold both to buy the SCAR.

I miss the XCR and will buy another when a deal comes around.
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 12:40:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 12:10:54 PM EST by Mattl]
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
Don't forget about:

AR-180
AR-180B (Had one and sold it, I kind of miss it)
SCAR
Daewoo K2

I personally love my SCAR

http://www.theplaceholder.com/forums/imagehosting/544a4541b18397f.jpg



AR-180= Parts issues
AR-180B= would rather have a chrome lined barrel
SCAR= NO interest whatsoever.
'Woo= I was seriously considering a K2, but parts availability is an issue

As to my choices..
MSAR... Made in USA, parts seem readily available, customer support is very strong.
FN... High quality rifle, made by a HUGE company that isn't going anywhere
XCR...Made in USA, good ergos, modular



XCR is an outstanding rifle by every account I have read, but the owner/producer could potentially be a real problem. Look into the Robinson M-96 "Recon" he apparently just decided to stop supporting it entirely. Also many here have issue with him supporting Romney in the last election.
FN- The SCAR L is approaching $2800 (you'd probably be lucky to get it for that) or over, no word on the SCAR H. The FS2000 will not take polymer mags and is $1900 or better.


I'd get a piston AR and a DI upper as a backup. There is always the Sig 556 as well, not sure about spare parts availability from Sig.

Link Posted: 7/19/2009 6:54:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
..and don't forget about the new C93 coming out from Century. They're using HK33 parts kits and they're out there but in very limited numbers. I have one that should be here in the next few days.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/134476000/134476217/pix3185866625.jpg


I really want to get one of those but I hear hunting down descent priced non-40 mags are a crap shoot.
Are there any people/companies making modifications so that the rifle accepts ar 15 mags?
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 7:03:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2009 7:05:49 PM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]
The magwell design is totally different, I'd be shocked if an AR adapater was even possible. If you want to use the cheap STANAG mags then restrict yourself to a gun designed for them. What's wrong with the 40 round mags anyway? That's ten more rounds than the STANAG, and that's a good thing.

If you absolutely must use STANAG mags, I like my XCR so far.
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 7:33:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2009 7:34:26 PM EST by Gr8Santini]
I love my XCR's. They run flawlessly. They're accurate and clean.



Link Posted: 7/19/2009 8:34:16 PM EST
XCR.

Great rifle. Built like a tank. Super rugged, super simple. No rape involved in it's purchase.
Link Posted: 7/19/2009 11:38:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By asddff33:
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
..and don't forget about the new C93 coming out from Century. They're using HK33 parts kits and they're out there but in very limited numbers. I have one that should be here in the next few days.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/134476000/134476217/pix3185866625.jpg


I really want to get one of those but I hear hunting down descent priced non-40 mags are a crap shoot.
Are there any people/companies making modifications so that the rifle accepts ar 15 mags?


They're about $40 each which isn't horrible.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:17:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
Don't forget about:

AR-180
AR-180B (Had one and sold it, I kind of miss it)
SCAR
Daewoo K2

I personally love my SCAR

http://www.theplaceholder.com/forums/imagehosting/544a4541b18397f.jpg



AR-180= Parts issues
AR-180B= would rather have a chrome lined barrel
SCAR= NO interest whatsoever.
'Woo= I was seriously considering a K2, but parts availability is an issue

As to my choices..
MSAR... Made in USA, parts seem readily available, customer support is very strong.
FN... High quality rifle, made by a HUGE company that isn't going anywhere
XCR...Made in USA, good ergos, modular



Shoot steel case ammo in an MSAR you void your warranty IIRC.
XCR is an outstanding rifle by every account I have read, but the owner/producer could potentially be a real problem. Look into the Robinson M-96 "Recon" he apparently just decided to stop supporting it entirely. Also many here have issue with him supporting Romney in the last election.
FN- The SCAR L is approaching $2800 (you'd probably be lucky to get it for that) or over, no word on the SCAR H. The FS2000 will not take polymer mags and is $1900 or better.


I'd get a piston AR and a DI upper as a backup. There is always the Sig 556 as well, not sure about spare parts availability from Sig.



Not true. RobArm will repair any M96 that may need it.
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 10:29:50 AM EST


How does your XCR fair in weight and balance vs a govt profile AR with 16" barrel?
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 10:39:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
Don't forget about:

AR-180
AR-180B (Had one and sold it, I kind of miss it)
SCAR
Daewoo K2

I personally love my SCAR

http://www.theplaceholder.com/forums/imagehosting/544a4541b18397f.jpg



AR-180= Parts issues
AR-180B= would rather have a chrome lined barrel
SCAR= NO interest whatsoever.
'Woo= I was seriously considering a K2, but parts availability is an issue

As to my choices..
MSAR... Made in USA, parts seem readily available, customer support is very strong.
FN... High quality rifle, made by a HUGE company that isn't going anywhere
XCR...Made in USA, good ergos, modular



Shoot steel case ammo in an MSAR you void your warranty IIRC...Not true. Dave told me in another thread today.
XCR is an outstanding rifle by every account I have read, but the owner/producer could potentially be a real problem. Look into the Robinson M-96 "Recon" he apparently just decided to stop supporting it entirely. Also many here have issue with him supporting Romney in the last election.
FN- The SCAR L is approaching $2800 (you'd probably be lucky to get it for that) or over, no word on the SCAR H. The FS2000 will not take polymer mags and is $1900 or better.


I'd get a piston AR and a DI upper as a backup. There is always the Sig 556 as well, not sure about spare parts availability from Sig.



Link Posted: 7/20/2009 11:42:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 12:09:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2009 12:17:01 PM EST by Mattl]
Originally Posted By MSARDave:
We have only ever voided the warranty on one rifle since we have been making firearms. It had absolutely nothing to do with Wolf ammo though, it did however involve an air ratchet, a dremel tool, and some good ole' JB weld. I worked with the guy, but I could not really do anything for his rifle.



My mistake. Wrongly attributed from another company with very similar product.

Link Posted: 7/20/2009 1:10:21 PM EST
Got cash? How about a SL8-1 to G36 Conversion?
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 2:33:20 PM EST
I have all the guns you are looking at but the XCR, its on the list, just haven't gotten it yet.

In my personal opinion, I would say go with the MSAR

I love the Sig 556 Classic I have and its been very reliable as has the FS2000. But when it come down to it, I have them all lined up on the wall of my gun room loaded and the MSAR is the one I would grab if needed.

Accurate, Compact, Reliable, has more capacity (42>30), more maneuverable..
Link Posted: 7/20/2009 10:18:36 PM EST
Rifle : XCR it's the only logical choice

Bullpup fan??? Then the MSAR seems to be the ticket.
Link Posted: 7/22/2009 9:24:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ghetto:
Originally Posted By asddff33:
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
..and don't forget about the new C93 coming out from Century. They're using HK33 parts kits and they're out there but in very limited numbers. I have one that should be here in the next few days.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/134476000/134476217/pix3185866625.jpg


I really want to get one of those but I hear hunting down descent priced non-40 mags are a crap shoot.
Are there any people/companies making modifications so that the rifle accepts ar 15 mags?


They're about $40 each which isn't horrible.
Link to where you're finding $40 HK93/33 mags that are NOT 40 rd, please.

Typically the 25 or 30 rd mags sell for $60 ea, and 5 rd mags are in the $80 range.

If you can mags that aren't 40 rd for less than $50 ea, let us V93/HK/Century owners know.

Link Posted: 7/22/2009 11:02:58 AM EST
I'm really leaning towards the MSAR, however I just found out about the FN DSP promotion, and it's looking pretty tempting.
Link Posted: 7/22/2009 11:22:59 AM EST
The good news is your a winner either way

Link Posted: 7/22/2009 1:17:54 PM EST
If you're leaning towards the MSAR (which is a great rifle), I would get the E4 if you have AR mags.
Link Posted: 7/22/2009 1:26:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By MCM:
If you're leaning towards the MSAR (which is a great rifle), I would get the E4 if you have AR mags.


E4 is a given.
Link Posted: 7/22/2009 4:54:34 PM EST
Yeah, I can't decide between an XCR or an MSAR either. But......I think I'll end up getting both!!!!!!!



Actually I'm leaning towards the MSAR since it's just so darn short.
Link Posted: 7/23/2009 3:59:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
..and don't forget about the new C93 coming out from Century. They're using HK33 parts kits and they're out there but in very limited numbers. I have one that should be here in the next few days.

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/134476000/134476217/pix3185866625.jpg


keep us updated.. id like to hear more about this.. i know century is a hit or miss gun, i like that they put out remakes of classics like the Galil and this just wondering about how it holds up
Link Posted: 7/23/2009 7:22:04 AM EST
If you want a interesting piece..... Bushmaster M17S. It's a AR-18 in a bullpup.... no longer made. Raising in price. Nice piece to work on.

Basic Design



Improved Design

Link Posted: 7/23/2009 7:24:55 AM EST
I remember when I subscribed to Gun Tests and they did a write up on them. Kind of a neat piece, but I'm looking for something where parts will be readily available etc.
Link Posted: 7/23/2009 4:23:29 PM EST
Anyone ever put a piston on one of those?
Link Posted: 7/23/2009 4:46:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2009 4:49:57 PM EST by Trumpet]
Originally Posted By Beerswimmer:
Anyone ever put a piston on one of those?


One of what? Everything I listed has a piston
Link Posted: 7/23/2009 5:00:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By Beerswimmer:
Anyone ever put a piston on one of those?


If you're talking about the M17S, it is a piston gun.
Link Posted: 7/24/2009 6:18:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By bolster:
Originally Posted By Beerswimmer:
Anyone ever put a piston on one of those?


If you're talking about the M17S, it is a piston gun.



Yes, and awesome!
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 7:12:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2009 7:16:19 AM EST by AEnemaBay]
G36 conversion?

Parts readily available, ambidextrous, extremely reliable.

Downside=$$$$

I love mine though:




Not mine, but a great conversion where they converted it to perfect G36 specs minus auto capability:

Link Posted: 7/25/2009 1:57:29 PM EST



Link Posted: 7/25/2009 2:48:31 PM EST


Already have two top flight AK-74 builds. Fact, I''m thinking of selling one or both. For logistical purposes, I'd like to keep things to 5.56 right now (I know you posted 5.56 AK's). Since I'm sticking to 5.56, I'd like to stick to AR mags too. I just have too many of them to make any sense of acquiring a different flavor of 5.56 mags.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 2:55:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Trumpet:


Already have two top flight AK-74 builds. Fact, I''m thinking of selling one or both. For logistical purposes, I'd like to keep things to 5.56 right now (I know you posted 5.56 AK's). Since I'm sticking to 5.56, I'd like to stick to AR mags too. I just have too many of them to make any sense of acquiring a different flavor of 5.56 mags.


Oh well, I guess if that's what you want... 5.56 AK's are pretty slick though.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 3:26:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By MEH:
Originally Posted By Trumpet:


Already have two top flight AK-74 builds. Fact, I''m thinking of selling one or both. For logistical purposes, I'd like to keep things to 5.56 right now (I know you posted 5.56 AK's). Since I'm sticking to 5.56, I'd like to stick to AR mags too. I just have too many of them to make any sense of acquiring a different flavor of 5.56 mags.


Oh well, I guess if that's what you want... 5.56 AK's are pretty slick though.


Aren't the mags pricey?

Link Posted: 7/25/2009 4:21:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 4:27:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Originally Posted By MEH:
Originally Posted By Trumpet:


Already have two top flight AK-74 builds. Fact, I''m thinking of selling one or both. For logistical purposes, I'd like to keep things to 5.56 right now (I know you posted 5.56 AK's). Since I'm sticking to 5.56, I'd like to stick to AR mags too. I just have too many of them to make any sense of acquiring a different flavor of 5.56 mags.


Oh well, I guess if that's what you want... 5.56 AK's are pretty slick though.


Aren't the mags pricey?



Only $25 to $30 bucks each...
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 4:39:05 PM EST
So right now he has the following options:

(STANAG Mags)
XCR
FS2000
SCAR
STG-556
M17S
Sig 556
AR-180
AR-180B
Daewoo K2

G36
SLR-106
C93
Saiga

WOW, you guys are REALLY good at narrowing down his choices.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 4:46:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
So right now he has the following options:

(STANAG Mags)
XCR
FS2000
SCAR
STG-556
M17S
Sig 556
AR-180
AR-180B
Daewoo K2

G36
SLR-106
C93
Saiga

WOW, you guys are REALLY good at narrowing down his choices.

C93? Nah, go Vector...



How about Valmet?


Link Posted: 7/25/2009 4:54:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
So right now he has the following options:

(STANAG Mags)
XCR
FS2000
SCAR Don't like it, especially the price
STG-556
M17S Sounds shallow, but ...it's ugly (to me)Sig 556 Meh. Seemed too heavy for what it is.
AR-180 Isn't parts avaialability an issue?
AR-180B I'm not HSLD and I take care of my weapons, but I'd prefer to have chrome (or nitrided barrels)
Daewoo K2 If there were a reliable source of parts, I'd love a K2.

G36
SLR-106
C93
Saiga

WOW, you guys are REALLY good at narrowing down his choices.


Link Posted: 7/25/2009 5:11:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By ThePitbullofLove:

Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
So right now he has the following options:

(STANAG Mags)
XCR
FS2000
SCAR
STG-556
M17S
Sig 556
AR-180
AR-180B
Daewoo K2

G36
SLR-106
C93
Saiga

WOW, you guys are REALLY good at narrowing down his choices.

C93? Nah, go Vector...
http://images35.fotki.com/v1207/photos/2/28682/5953109/013-vi.jpg


How about Valmet?

http://images47.fotki.com/v1463/photos/2/28682/7261117/IMG_0712-vi.jpg


I gotta say, that Vector is sexy though.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 5:37:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Originally Posted By ThePitbullofLove:

Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
So right now he has the following options:

(STANAG Mags)
XCR
FS2000
SCAR
STG-556
M17S
Sig 556
AR-180
AR-180B
Daewoo K2

G36
SLR-106
C93
Saiga

WOW, you guys are REALLY good at narrowing down his choices.

C93? Nah, go Vector...
http://images35.fotki.com/v1207/photos/2/28682/5953109/013-vi.jpg


How about Valmet?

http://images47.fotki.com/v1463/photos/2/28682/7261117/IMG_0712-vi.jpg


I gotta say, that Vector is sexy though.

They fold into a small package too...



Regarding your earlier post on the AR-180, as long as you don't pull the trigger with the upper open/off, you shouldn't break any parts. They're really stout guns (original AR180's, not the 180B).

I have a Sterling that was abused, and it's very reliable and accurate. I got it cheap at a show because someone had used it as a club and broke the stock off. Original stocks are a tough find, so back in the "ban days" when I picked this one up (2003, IIRC), I bought an Ace Ltd. folder and a friend of mine and I engineered it to fit the 180. Of course now, after I sent them a pic for their gallery, they developed a 180 stock...




It's a rock solid rifle.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 6:30:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2009 6:30:51 PM EST by AEnemaBay]
Luckily the G36 can be converted to using STANAG mags by swapping out the mag well. So it's still in the game baby!
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 11:26:45 PM EST
Trumpet, one thing on the MSAR or any bullpup. Make sure you LIKE bullpups before you buy one.

If you decide on a bullpup.....MSAR is the best way to go.


Put it this way....I despise bullpups ( though I have had fun with one or two ) BUT the MSAR is so damn well made that I am actually tempted to dig out my Pippi Longstocking costume and go turn a few tricks in downtown Phoenix so that I can buy one.
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