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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 7/27/2009 11:28:36 AM EST
I'm new to black powder guns and am looking to pick one up for the upcoming season. I'd like a modern inline in 50-54 cal but WA state has regulations requiring the use of exposed traditional percussion caps. Can anyone point me in the right direction for a good muzzleloader? I'd like to keep the price around or under 3-400 dollars.
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 11:44:35 AM EST
If you must go traditional ignition then I would go with the TC Hawken. Very well made and very accurate as well. Keep in mind though if you do not keep it clean it will hang fire. At the worst you may get a deer jump the shot (spooked by the primer cap).
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 12:05:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 1:52:16 PM EST
Look at the Lyman Deerstalker. It will allow you to use modern conical bullets in a sidelock gun.

T/C and, if I remember right, Traditions also make modern sidelocks in maybe even stainless and synthetic combos.

Of course, I'd get a REAL rifle and shoot patched round balls with actual black powder, but that's just me.
Link Posted: 7/27/2009 6:22:02 PM EST
TC Hawken or Renegade and Lyman Great Plains Rifle are all good choices.

Jim
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 6:42:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 6:47:23 AM EST by Sixguns4Fighting]
You want a Hawken rifle in .54 caliber percussion. The 1 in 48" rifling is an intermediate twist rate for use of patched ball and heavy conicals. Try both projectile types and work up a load that is accurate for that rifle.

Clean up is easy. Just use hot soapy water, you won't have a problem with rust if you wipe it down with a rag and use a cleaning jag to run dry patches down the bore. Look for a product called "Borebutter", it is a natural lubricant. Avoid the petroleum based gun oils or grease for a blackpowder gun as petroleum products will make fouling worse.

Be sure to check out Dixie Gun Works. They have a great website, but you will also want their print catalog too. There are footnotes on many of the products in the print catalog and you will find it a very informative book on blackpowder firearms and accoutrements.

http://dixiegun.com/

Since you are in WA state, check out 'Puyallup Valley Taxidermy and Muzzleloading Supply'. It is a very good gunshop for blackpowder shooters and it may be within driving distance for you.

Link Posted: 7/28/2009 6:45:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
I can't answer your question, but I will say that, with blackpowder, and the fluids used in clean-up, stainless steel and plastic are your friends.


I never had a problem with it. I use hot, soapy water and I run dry patches down the bore and wipe the outside surfaces dry. There is a product called "Borebutter" that is a really good lubricant for blackpowder firearms. Use it and you won't have problems with rust.

Link Posted: 7/28/2009 9:15:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 12:57:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2009 1:09:20 PM EST by Sixguns4Fighting]
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By raf:
I can't answer your question, but I will say that, with blackpowder, and the fluids used in clean-up, stainless steel and plastic are your friends.


I never had a problem with it. I use hot, soapy water and I run dry patches down the bore and wipe the outside surfaces dry. There is a product called "Borebutter" that is a really good lubricant for blackpowder firearms. Use it and you won't have problems with rust.




I don't doubt what you say, but I've seen Brown Bess muskets ruined by water seepage between the hard-to seperate barrel and stock. I've also seen internal damage to locks via the same mechanism.
Some of this can be mitigated by using great care, but accidents happen. Thus my comments on materials.



There are some people that have ruined cast iron cookware by running it in the dishwasher. Proper care is really simple and easy, but there are some people that just don't want to learn.


Link Posted: 7/28/2009 1:03:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By raf:
I can't answer your question, but I will say that, with blackpowder, and the fluids used in clean-up, stainless steel and plastic are your friends.


I never had a problem with it. I use hot, soapy water and I run dry patches down the bore and wipe the outside surfaces dry. There is a product called "Borebutter" that is a really good lubricant for blackpowder firearms. Use it and you won't have problems with rust.



I don't doubt what you say, but I've seen Brown Bess muskets ruined by water seepage between the hard-to seperate barrel and stock. I've also seen internal damage to locks via the same mechanism.
Some of this can be mitigated by using great care, but accidents happen. Thus my comments on materials.


Hmmmm...not to start a flame..but I have not really experienced that myself, altho its more possible with modern steels since the silica percentage is nonexistant, old skelped barrels were basically wrought iron with a high percentage of silica (sand glass), i know Wallace Guszler told me that a long time ago and hence with almost every original musket or rifle I have examined the underneath was somewhat stained but not what i would say ruined..guess they knew a lil somethin back then, on modern barrels that i use for builds i have not experienced it much either, but when I build one it goes to the sweat box and after that gets a hot infusion of Rapeseed oil on the bottom, possibly for that express reason i just know it was done..so i do it as well... the bottom of the barrel that is below the stock line is "usually not filed smooth, possibly keeping the coagulated oil in place as a preservative, some of the makers in the CLA do this and it seems generally agreed upon that smoothing the flats unseen was not considered "workmanlike"...just my .02...ymmv and all that...
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 1:20:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 1:34:53 PM EST


*click here* for the Cabela's webpage for Borebutter.


All Natural "Bore Butter" is absent of any petroleum based oil, and contains an ingredient which seasons the bore with repeated use, just as you would season a cast iron skillet. Tar, used to pave highways, is made by heating a petroleum based oil. In other words, heat plus petroleum oil equals tar! That's what causes the heavy fouling when shooting a muzzleloader with conventional petroleum based lubes. The problem of heavy fouling was one not encountered in the old days, as the oils used then were all natural' whale oil, bear fat, deer tallow, etc.

To use, remove all traces of oil from your muzzleloader by cleaning the bore with hot water and a detergent. Then coat the bore with Bore Butter using a patch or swab saturated with it. From that point on, never allow a petroleum based lube to interfere with the Natural Lube. Use bullets prelubed with Bore Butter, and when cleaning, use an all natural bore cleaner like our No. 13. As you continue to shoot, you will be slowly seasoning the bore and will notice that very little fouling builds up. Loading will remain easy from shot to shot, and cleaning will be a snap.


FAQ - Thompson/Center Arms Co.
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 1:40:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf:

However, the average BP user is well-served by plastic and stainless steel, IMHO. If he doesn't want to go that route, and also wishes to avoid cumulative damage to his musket/rifle, then he had better be careful, and study up on preventative measures in case of the inevitable accident.



Maintenance is both simple and easy. Best to show the newbies how to do it right.

Link Posted: 7/28/2009 2:08:22 PM EST
The thing about the TC hawkens is that they have a hooked breach barrel. You pull the wedge, pull the nipple and remove the barrel. Put the breach end in a bucket of warm soapy water and run a patch down. When you pull it back it pumps the water into the barrel.
Warm soapy water is what everyone uses to clean black powder weapons. Just be sure to dry it thoroughly. I wipe with a dry patch then an alcohol patch then another dry patch.
Bore Butter has had a reputation of allowing rust to develope. Everyone lately has been using a gun oil in the bore. You just have to completely remove it before use. The alcohol patch will do that.

Jim
Link Posted: 7/28/2009 4:03:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/29/2009 6:48:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By raf:

However, the average BP user is well-served by plastic and stainless steel, IMHO. If he doesn't want to go that route, and also wishes to avoid cumulative damage to his musket/rifle, then he had better be careful, and study up on preventative measures in case of the inevitable accident.



Maintenance is both simple and easy. Best to show the newbies how to do it right.



You're right, but after trying to teach some folks how to do it correctly, I came to the conclusion that a few folks either didn't want to learn, or couldn't be taught, period.


I Agree Raf....most of the properly built guns are not for the occasional BP enthusiast, you as well as i have seen probably more damaged barrel pin escutcheon holes that we would like to..and like yourself I have had the pleasure? of trying to repair said damage, with hooked breech guns of course not so much, there have been a few times I have had to do a complete restock on severely damaged wood due to improper dismounting...most people dont even realize the pins are driven and removed in an order and orientation...on a side note if you have the opportunity to inspect original 1st and 2nd model Long Land Muskets a lot of them have been maintained to regiment standard so well that the crown of the barrel could be used as a patch cutter due to stoning with a Blackball


Link Posted: 7/29/2009 7:49:53 AM EST
Well I'm a weapons maintenance guy who cleans periodically besides just after shooting so I should be good on that front. And I will more than likely go with my friends from work who shoot black powder so I should get good cleaning practices from them. I just wanted to know some good guns. Thanks for the info and keep it coming if theres more, I'm looking into stainless and plastic.
Link Posted: 7/29/2009 11:50:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2009 11:57:58 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 7/29/2009 12:58:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By raf:

However, the average BP user is well-served by plastic and stainless steel, IMHO. If he doesn't want to go that route, and also wishes to avoid cumulative damage to his musket/rifle, then he had better be careful, and study up on preventative measures in case of the inevitable accident.



Maintenance is both simple and easy. Best to show the newbies how to do it right.



You're right, but after trying to teach some folks how to do it correctly, I came to the conclusion that a few folks either didn't want to learn, or couldn't be taught, period.


I Agree Raf....most of the properly built guns are not for the occasional BP enthusiast, you as well as i have seen probably more damaged barrel pin escutcheon holes that we would like to..and like yourself I have had the pleasure? of trying to repair said damage, with hooked breech guns of course not so much, there have been a few times I have had to do a complete restock on severely damaged wood due to improper dismounting...most people dont even realize the pins are driven and removed in an order and orientation...on a side note if you have the opportunity to inspect original 1st and 2nd model Long Land Muskets a lot of them have been maintained to regiment standard so well that the crown of the barrel could be used as a patch cutter due to stoning with a Blackball




Any more info on this? How does one determine the "correct" way? TIA
Link Posted: 7/30/2009 6:05:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By raf:

However, the average BP user is well-served by plastic and stainless steel, IMHO. If he doesn't want to go that route, and also wishes to avoid cumulative damage to his musket/rifle, then he had better be careful, and study up on preventative measures in case of the inevitable accident.



Maintenance is both simple and easy. Best to show the newbies how to do it right.



You're right, but after trying to teach some folks how to do it correctly, I came to the conclusion that a few folks either didn't want to learn, or couldn't be taught, period.


I Agree Raf....most of the properly built guns are not for the occasional BP enthusiast, you as well as i have seen probably more damaged barrel pin escutcheon holes that we would like to..and like yourself I have had the pleasure? of trying to repair said damage, with hooked breech guns of course not so much, there have been a few times I have had to do a complete restock on severely damaged wood due to improper dismounting...most people dont even realize the pins are driven and removed in an order and orientation...on a side note if you have the opportunity to inspect original 1st and 2nd model Long Land Muskets a lot of them have been maintained to regiment standard so well that the crown of the barrel could be used as a patch cutter due to stoning with a Blackball




Yes, I have had the #@$&&$%* experience, thank you very much.

I did not know that point about the old-timers, I'll ask a couple of the collectors hereabouts. I'm sure there are quite a few around.

FWIW, and this is probably of little interest to the OP, if talking about Mil-pattern repro muskets, I find that I have come to prefer the Charleville over the Bess for a couple of reasons.
1) The barrel is banded, not pinned to the stock, and the bands can be removed and replaced without damaging stock or barrel. This makes stock and underside of barrel maintenance much easier.
2) Since it requires a smaller ball and a bit less powder, it is a bit cheaper to shoot.

YMMV.



..yes you are in the promised land of original rifles and muskets, I was lucky enough to live in Yorktown and being so close to Colonial Williamsburg...made some good friends there and quite honestly made a pest of myself sometimes trying to soak up information and techniques, and by no means am i the league of those masters, ive been told i build a "correct" musket..when I find I have the time....and I agree..the Charleville is a sweet shooter compared to a Long Land...specifcally for the reasons you mention with regard to dismount, another one of my favorites is the US 1795 which is a merely a modified copy, and since being here in St Louis it has a bit of appeal since it served with the Corps of Discovery....one of these days i hope to get around to one.....
Link Posted: 7/30/2009 6:12:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By skywarp989:
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By raf:

However, the average BP user is well-served by plastic and stainless steel, IMHO. If he doesn't want to go that route, and also wishes to avoid cumulative damage to his musket/rifle, then he had better be careful, and study up on preventative measures in case of the inevitable accident.



Maintenance is both simple and easy. Best to show the newbies how to do it right.



You're right, but after trying to teach some folks how to do it correctly, I came to the conclusion that a few folks either didn't want to learn, or couldn't be taught, period.


I Agree Raf....most of the properly built guns are not for the occasional BP enthusiast, you as well as i have seen probably more damaged barrel pin escutcheon holes that we would like to..and like yourself I have had the pleasure? of trying to repair said damage, with hooked breech guns of course not so much, there have been a few times I have had to do a complete restock on severely damaged wood due to improper dismounting...most people dont even realize the pins are driven and removed in an order and orientation...on a side note if you have the opportunity to inspect original 1st and 2nd model Long Land Muskets a lot of them have been maintained to regiment standard so well that the crown of the barrel could be used as a patch cutter due to stoning with a Blackball




Any more info on this? How does one determine the "correct" way? TIA


...Traditionally and by no means is this broad sweeping with respect to schools of building, looking from the rear of the gun from topside, the pins are "usually" driven left to right, with the center pin being driven first, UNLESS it is a swamped barrel. then the rear then the front and finally the tang screw....but depending on which style this can change subtly, there is some primary documentation both old and modern that describe this and a few other things of that nature,.this really only applies to traditional styles of building from scratch, semi custom guns can also fall into this category and IIRC Chambers guns should be done in this manner for quality assurance, ...hope this clarifies and doesnt confuse.....
Link Posted: 7/30/2009 10:53:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/30/2009 11:59:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By raf:

However, the average BP user is well-served by plastic and stainless steel, IMHO. If he doesn't want to go that route, and also wishes to avoid cumulative damage to his musket/rifle, then he had better be careful, and study up on preventative measures in case of the inevitable accident.



Maintenance is both simple and easy. Best to show the newbies how to do it right.



You're right, but after trying to teach some folks how to do it correctly, I came to the conclusion that a few folks either didn't want to learn, or couldn't be taught, period.


I Agree Raf....most of the properly built guns are not for the occasional BP enthusiast, you as well as i have seen probably more damaged barrel pin escutcheon holes that we would like to..and like yourself I have had the pleasure? of trying to repair said damage, with hooked breech guns of course not so much, there have been a few times I have had to do a complete restock on severely damaged wood due to improper dismounting...most people dont even realize the pins are driven and removed in an order and orientation...on a side note if you have the opportunity to inspect original 1st and 2nd model Long Land Muskets a lot of them have been maintained to regiment standard so well that the crown of the barrel could be used as a patch cutter due to stoning with a Blackball




Yes, I have had the #@$&&$%* experience, thank you very much.

I did not know that point about the old-timers, I'll ask a couple of the collectors hereabouts. I'm sure there are quite a few around.

FWIW, and this is probably of little interest to the OP, if talking about Mil-pattern repro muskets, I find that I have come to prefer the Charleville over the Bess for a couple of reasons.
1) The barrel is banded, not pinned to the stock, and the bands can be removed and replaced without damaging stock or barrel. This makes stock and underside of barrel maintenance much easier.
2) Since it requires a smaller ball and a bit less powder, it is a bit cheaper to shoot.

YMMV.



..yes you are in the promised land of original rifles and muskets, I was lucky enough to live in Yorktown and being so close to Colonial Williamsburg...made some good friends there and quite honestly made a pest of myself sometimes trying to soak up information and techniques, and by no means am i the league of those masters, ive been told i build a "correct" musket..when I find I have the time....and I agree..the Charleville is a sweet shooter compared to a Long Land...specifcally for the reasons you mention with regard to dismount, another one of my favorites is the US 1795 which is a merely a modified copy, and since being here in St Louis it has a bit of appeal since it served with the Corps of Discovery....one of these days i hope to get around to one.....


Here's a bit of trivia for you: Unless I'm mistaken, the band-and-spring arrangement used on the Chareleville lived on in essentially the same form on one or another US shoulder weapon, continuously, 'till the M-1 Carbine.


...I think that might be pretty close....the 1805 HF...Lee Navy....Krag...1903 Springfield ....all banded ...and possibly the 88 commission and a lot of the Mausers...hmmmm...have to look into that further
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 2:23:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
Bore Butter has had a reputation of allowing rust to develope. Everyone lately has been using a gun oil in the bore. You just have to completely remove it before use. The alcohol patch will do that.

Jim



Strange, I have been using Bore Butter for two decades and never had a problem. Home is Seattle, so it's not like we got dry, hot weather.
Link Posted: 7/31/2009 2:32:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sixguns4Fighting:
Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
Bore Butter has had a reputation of allowing rust to develope. Everyone lately has been using a gun oil in the bore. You just have to completely remove it before use. The alcohol patch will do that.

Jim



Strange, I have been using Bore Butter for two decades and never had a problem. Home is Seattle, so it's not like we got dry, hot weather.


I have used it before too with no problems. I have no idea if the formula has changed, but on a muzzleloading forum guys with a lot more experience than I have recommend not using it for long term storage. They say to use regular gun oil and remove it completely if the rifle will be stored for any length of time.
BB should be good if you shoot weekly or more often.

Jim
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 7:44:32 AM EST
Thanks for the replies, I'm looking at Knight MK 85s and wolverines, the TC hawken and a few others.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 10:21:33 PM EST
Can someone please tell me what kind of rifles were taken by Lewis and Clark on their trek to the west and back? I understand that President Jefferson had special rifles made for the trip, and that they sometimes had a smaller caliber rifle with them - Maybe taken from the then Army rifles in stock? I'm hoping that someone makes a good copy. Any ideas?
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:32:39 AM EST
I think you are referring to the alleged Harpers Ferry Arsenal 1803 rifle, I say alleged because there is not really any primary documentation that they actually took these with them on the Corps of Discovery a few of the scouts had privately owned rifles but thats about it besides the 2 air rifles of which there is no remaining example, the 1803 HF rifle was in its initial trial at this time and was not issue, we were still using the US 1795 musket of which there were 3 dozen on board the trip...I would have to pull out the diaries to confirm I am going from memory ...RAF if you have a copy handy and see this post your finding and set things right if I missed the mark on this.....
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 10:37:00 AM EST
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