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Posted: 9/24/2013 6:38:11 PM EST
It was suggested this have its own thread and I didnt see one. I hadnt heard anything about it until I saw the post in the 22 mag thread.

So these are the guys http://www.kmaerospace.com/

They doing preorders? Anyone know how much? There a thread on another forum? Tell me all
missing
Link Posted: 9/24/2013 7:24:17 PM EST
[#1]
yes they are (go to there website),  price mentioned so far is $1800,   go to  bullpupforum.com
Link Posted: 9/24/2013 7:41:02 PM EST
[#2]
Link Posted: 9/24/2013 8:08:37 PM EST
[#3]


You mean this one it was at the bullpup shoot.

The carrier was just a billet of steel as its in prototype stage. It has a nice side charging handle and his other mods he does to the bushy m17s done to it. It looks promising but I fell head over heels in love with the idf version Tavor at the shoot so I didn't play with it too much.

In fact that is one of his modified bushys on the table in the background.
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 3:20:30 AM EST
[#4]
I sure wish every gun I liked wasn't 2K. Love to see one of the new ones in person. I only handled a original a few times and never shot them.

Link Posted: 9/25/2013 4:40:17 AM EST
[#5]

Ive handled and shot the originals that Bassmaster made and  then discontinued.
The development of the rifle is a unique story in of itself, coming out of Australia.....

The ergo's were weird on the originals and unless highly modified were not fun to shoot....
especially with the heat the alum. receiver retained (friggin HOT)

BUT....even with the re developed side chargiing ability and the trigger pull.. I CANT see  HOW they could justify
that type of price tag.... for that rifle.... Your in lightly shot, slightly used STEYR AUG pricing there....





Link Posted: 9/25/2013 5:55:25 AM EST
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
<a href="http://s24.photobucket.com/user/_Pax_Parabellum_/media/531940_10201384707873147_67857314_n_zps53e69d24.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/_Pax_Parabellum_/531940_10201384707873147_67857314_n_zps53e69d24.jpg</a>

You mean this one it was at the bullpup shoot.

The carrier was just a billet of steel as its in prototype stage. It has a nice side charging handle and his other mods he does to the bushy m17s done to it. It looks promising but I fell head over heels in love with the idf version Tavor at the shoot so I didn't play with it too much.

In fact that is one of his modified bushys on the table in the background.
View Quote


Why did you like the Tavor more?
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 6:06:54 AM EST
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Ive handled and shot the originals that Bassmaster made and  then discontinued.
The development of the rifle is a unique story in of itself, coming out of Australia.....

The ergo's were weird on the originals and unless highly modified were not fun to shoot....
especially with the heat the alum. receiver retained (friggin HOT)

BUT....even with the re developed side chargiing ability and the trigger pull.. I CANT see  HOW they could justify
that type of price tag.... for that rifle.... Your in lightly shot, slightly used STEYR AUG pricing there....


View Quote


Try machining a billet of aluminum into a lower and you would understand the price real quick!  They also have R&D costs they have to cover, and there definitely is a volume cost savings in running rifles and parts manufacturing by the tens of thousands as opposed to the hundreds.  

I think the price is fair considering it is 10% cheaper than a new Tavor or AUG, 100% U.S. made, and it is all aluminum to boot.  Plus figure you are getting the value of a $200-$300 match trigger grade 3.5# from the outset on the gun.  The trigger really is that good.

Link Posted: 9/25/2013 6:23:05 AM EST
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Try machining a billet of aluminum into a lower and you would understand the price real quick!  They also have R&D costs they have to cover, and there definitely is a volume cost savings in running rifles and parts manufacturing by the tens of thousands as opposed to the hundreds.  
View Quote


I don't argue why it costs them so much, but simple economics dictates if your cost is higher than what your customers are willing to pay that you will fail.  

I've not handled this weapon, so I can't really comment on it, but I can agree whole-heartedly that just looking at it does not give me the JHTH (Just Have To Have) syndrome and thus for me it would only be interesting as a cheap bullpup.  It's not interesting at this point to me as a $2K bullpup.

What I've heard so far as its selling points are:
-uses NATO/AR-15 mags: so do Tavor and AUG NATO
-excellent trigger: would need to compare to 2020 HTM in an AUG to see, lots of folks claim great triggers

I'll keep an eye on it, but at first blush it's not wowing me, thus I fear for the creator's value equation unless he can find some real differentiators to tout.

Just my $0.02,
Richard
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 7:50:29 AM EST
[#9]
I know the bolt is different but could a CMMG 22lr adapter be made to work?
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 7:56:49 AM EST
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I don't argue why it costs them so much, but simple economics dictates if your cost is higher than what your customers are willing to pay that you will fail.  

I've not handled this weapon, so I can't really comment on it, but I can agree whole-heartedly that just looking at it does not give me the JHTH (Just Have To Have) syndrome and thus for me it would only be interesting as a cheap bullpup.  It's not interesting at this point to me as a $2K bullpup.

What I've heard so far as its selling points are:
-uses NATO/AR-15 mags: so do Tavor and AUG NATO
-excellent trigger: would need to compare to 2020 HTM in an AUG to see, lots of folks claim great triggers

I'll keep an eye on it, but at first blush it's not wowing me, thus I fear for the creator's value equation unless he can find some real differentiators to tout.

Just my $0.02,
Richard
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Try machining a billet of aluminum into a lower and you would understand the price real quick!  They also have R&D costs they have to cover, and there definitely is a volume cost savings in running rifles and parts manufacturing by the tens of thousands as opposed to the hundreds.  


I don't argue why it costs them so much, but simple economics dictates if your cost is higher than what your customers are willing to pay that you will fail.  

I've not handled this weapon, so I can't really comment on it, but I can agree whole-heartedly that just looking at it does not give me the JHTH (Just Have To Have) syndrome and thus for me it would only be interesting as a cheap bullpup.  It's not interesting at this point to me as a $2K bullpup.

What I've heard so far as its selling points are:
-uses NATO/AR-15 mags: so do Tavor and AUG NATO
-excellent trigger: would need to compare to 2020 HTM in an AUG to see, lots of folks claim great triggers

I'll keep an eye on it, but at first blush it's not wowing me, thus I fear for the creator's value equation unless he can find some real differentiators to tout.

Just my $0.02,
Richard


Did someone confirm that as expected pricing of ~$1800-$2k?
If so, I have to agree with the above.  Non-interesting at the $2k level, to me.  
I've seen enough positive comments about K&M's work to have no doubt it's beautifully machined, but the gun still looks like a gutter downspout...a very expensive one.  Much more interested at the AR price level than 2k.

Somewhere or another there was a thread discussing other calibers, e.g. 6.5 Grendel being a possibility.  
That definitely raises the interest level for me if/when it happens, but my preference would be to see the same offered for the AUG.
Time will tell, I guess.
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 8:26:47 AM EST
[#11]
Yes, the MSRP is anticipated at $1800 according to Ken at K&M.

To each their own!
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 9:35:37 AM EST
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
...but the gun still looks like a gutter downspout...
View Quote


( Coffe almost came out the nose on that one )

Link Posted: 9/25/2013 10:53:05 AM EST
[#13]
Having experimented with various Bullpup designs, since the 1970's,



and, admittedly, having a distinct preference for an instant ambi-ejection feature (such as incorporated in the Beretta ARX-160/ARX100), given the proximity of the shooters' face in the typical left-side/right-side ejecting Bullpup design, I'm really excited about the upcoming 21st Century version of the M17S (Photo, below, by Snapperhead363, BullpupForum.com).

With an astounding [for a mechanically-operated trigger on a Bullpup configuration] 3.5-pound trigger pull,  left- and right-side-ejecting versions, and, a 6.5mm Grendel chambering --- finally, a Bullpup done right!

Check out the www.kmarms.com link provided by maleante, above.


Link Posted: 9/25/2013 11:05:55 AM EST
[#14]
Do Want!!

Will have to seriously check these out.
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 11:56:05 AM EST
[#15]
Now imagine a SBR version where your suppressor fits down inside the handguard


26" with an 11-13" barrel + suppressor


I would want it in 6.8 SPC but heck I would settle for 6.5G, 300BLK, 556 in that configuration
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 2:36:33 PM EST
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
. . . Somewhere or another there was a thread discussing other calibers, e.g. 6.5 Grendel being a possibility.  
That definitely raises the interest level for me if/when it happens, but my preference would be to see the same offered for the AUG.
Time will tell, I guess.
View Quote


Try writing Scott O'Brien, at SteyrAms,Inc. http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2475.0. I'm sure he'd appreciate your input. And, it might just prompt Steyr Arms to see the light: It's a brand new Century, time to offer the shooting world a 6.5mm Grendel-chambered AUG!
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 2:50:15 PM EST
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Now imagine a SBR version where your suppressor fits down inside the handguard


26" with an 11-13" barrel + suppressor


I would want it in 6.8 SPC but heck I would settle for 6.5G, 300BLK, 556 in that configuration
View Quote


I always liked that idea even if it was a integral barrel assembly so it wasn't a SBR. Very cool to have a handy suppressed gun that is not any longer than most standard carbines.
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 3:54:57 PM EST
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
..
having a distinct preference for an instant ambi-ejection feature (such as incorporated in the Beretta ARX-160/ARX100), given the proximity of the shooters' face in the typical left-side/right-side ejecting Bullpup design, I'm really excited about the upcoming 21st Century version of the M17S ..

3.5-pound trigger pull,  left- and right-side-ejecting versions, and, a 6.5mm Grendel chambering
View Quote


Right, I did forget about the user-changeable ejection.  That's a plus to some, but note the port placement.  I know it's effectively a prototype and isn't showing a port on the left hand side, but the port placement is pretty far rearward (not surprisingly, it is a bullpup, right?), so a valid question is - is it more important for people to be able to fire a weapon strong or weak-sided, or to be able to switch it (guessing generally once) from left to right handed operation or vice versa?

Link Posted: 9/25/2013 4:05:39 PM EST
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Try writing Scott O'Brien, at SteyrAms,Inc. http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2475.0. I'm sure he'd appreciate your input. And, it might just prompt Steyr Arms to see the light: It's a brand new Century, time to offer the shooting world a 6.5mm Grendel-chambered AUG!
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
. . . Somewhere or another there was a thread discussing other calibers, e.g. 6.5 Grendel being a possibility.  
That definitely raises the interest level for me if/when it happens, but my preference would be to see the same offered for the AUG.
Time will tell, I guess.


Try writing Scott O'Brien, at SteyrAms,Inc. http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2475.0. I'm sure he'd appreciate your input. And, it might just prompt Steyr Arms to see the light: It's a brand new Century, time to offer the shooting world a 6.5mm Grendel-chambered AUG!


Yep, that's in the to do queue, believe me.
I'm hoping one of these days we see the 'bastard child' of the AUG, FS2K, Tavor, etc. and see a true next generation pup, instead of somewhat incremental improvements.
None of this is taking away from what may be a great trigger in the K&M offering, but I can dream, right? ;)
Is it too much to ask for a lighter AUG, with a longer range caliber conversion, non-in-your-face-weak-sided-ejection? :)
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 6:18:35 PM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Why did you like the Tavor more?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
<a href="http://s24.photobucket.com/user/_Pax_Parabellum_/media/531940_10201384707873147_67857314_n_zps53e69d24.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/_Pax_Parabellum_/531940_10201384707873147_67857314_n_zps53e69d24.jpg</a>

You mean this one it was at the bullpup shoot.

The carrier was just a billet of steel as its in prototype stage. It has a nice side charging handle and his other mods he does to the bushy m17s done to it. It looks promising but I fell head over heels in love with the idf version Tavor at the shoot so I didn't play with it too much.

In fact that is one of his modified bushys on the table in the background.


Why did you like the Tavor more?


It feels more ergonomic I like the safety better. I dont like having rails all over the place since I don't use them and they add weight. Of my two ARs the only one I paid anything for has zero rails. Also since the whole body of the M17 is metal id imagine it would get hot and uncomfortable after prolonged firing or laying in the sun in the summer. As for parts I think long run a firearm with a big factory behind it would be better than a small one, MSAR kind of killed little companies expensive rifles for me even though mine never failed. Lastly and completely subjectively I like the look of the tavor better.

Plus on the second day during the competition I used a loner IDF tavor to get the fastest time in the carbine portion, we work well together and it would be nice to have a iwi rifle to keep my iwi pistol company .

The m17s is still a very nice rifle though. Just at its price point I like the tavor and aug family better but that's just my humble personal opinion. If the m17 is your cup of tea more power to you and his new updated version looks much improved from the bushmaster ones.
Link Posted: 9/25/2013 8:04:05 PM EST
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
. . . I'm hoping one of these days we see the 'bastard child' of the AUG, FS2K, Tavor, etc. and see a true next generation pup, instead of somewhat incremental improvements.
None of this is taking away from what may be a great trigger in the K&M offering, but I can dream, right? ;)
Is it too much to ask for a lighter AUG, with a longer range caliber conversion, non-in-your-face-weak-sided-ejection? :)
View Quote


Indeed, such was my hope, when I sent a letter-appeal to Dr. Franco Gussalli-Beretta, back in April, 2012
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3702-Military-round-comparisons/page14 (Note: Scroll down the page to Reply #140, bottom of page.).

In my not so humble opinion: In a Bullpup rifle design utilizing typical side ejection, an instant ambi-ejection system, such as featured in the Beretta ARX-160, or the Longziz #1 Prototype, is key to a successful operating platform for all shooters, in all shooting scenarios.
Link Posted: 9/26/2013 5:03:29 AM EST
[#22]
I think its kinda purty.  I'd buy one if....they chamber it in 6.8, 14.5 in barrel, open the magwell up to work with the new LWRC/Magpul 30 rnd mags, slope the rear of the optics rail, and drop the price down a bit.
Link Posted: 9/26/2013 5:08:09 AM EST
[#23]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Indeed, such was my hope, when I sent a letter-appeal to Dr. Franco Gussalli-Beretta, back in April, 2012

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3702-Military-round-comparisons/page14 (Note: Scroll down the page to Reply #140, bottom of page.).



In my not so humble opinion: In a Bullpup rifle design utilizing typical side ejection, an instant ambi-ejection system, such as featured in the Beretta ARX-160, or the Longziz #1 Prototype, is key to a successful operating platform for all shooters, in all shooting scenarios.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

. . . I'm hoping one of these days we see the 'bastard child' of the AUG, FS2K, Tavor, etc. and see a true next generation pup, instead of somewhat incremental improvements.

None of this is taking away from what may be a great trigger in the K&M offering, but I can dream, right? ;)

Is it too much to ask for a lighter AUG, with a longer range caliber conversion, non-in-your-face-weak-sided-ejection? :)





Indeed, such was my hope, when I sent a letter-appeal to Dr. Franco Gussalli-Beretta, back in April, 2012

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3702-Military-round-comparisons/page14 (Note: Scroll down the page to Reply #140, bottom of page.).



In my not so humble opinion: In a Bullpup rifle design utilizing typical side ejection, an instant ambi-ejection system, such as featured in the Beretta ARX-160, or the Longziz #1 Prototype, is key to a successful operating platform for all shooters, in all shooting scenarios.


The bullpup version of Radom's MSBS comes close. Switchable ejection isn't as quick as the ARX, but is faster than the other bullpups on the market.



 
Link Posted: 9/26/2013 5:33:45 AM EST
[#24]
Link Posted: 9/26/2013 5:50:20 AM EST
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
View Quote


Ken really needs to get better pics on his web site...looks like blurry phone pics.  Charging handle does not look very ergo.  Match trigger!?!  Very interesting nonetheless!!!
Link Posted: 9/26/2013 8:22:03 AM EST
[#26]
Spoke to him yesterday and put my name on the list.  The lower will be compatible with the old one, so should bolt right up to a regular M17S upper.
Link Posted: 9/26/2013 11:19:43 AM EST
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

The bullpup version of Radom's MSBS comes close. Switchable ejection isn't as quick as the ARX, but is faster than the other bullpups on the market.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
. . . I'm hoping one of these days we see the 'bastard child' of the AUG, FS2K, Tavor, etc. and see a true next generation pup, instead of somewhat incremental improvements.
None of this is taking away from what may be a great trigger in the K&M offering, but I can dream, right? ;)
Is it too much to ask for a lighter AUG, with a longer range caliber conversion, non-in-your-face-weak-sided-ejection? :)


Indeed, such was my hope, when I sent a letter-appeal to Dr. Franco Gussalli-Beretta, back in April, 2012
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3702-Military-round-comparisons/page14 (Note: Scroll down the page to Reply #140, bottom of page.).

In my not so humble opinion: In a Bullpup rifle design utilizing typical side ejection, an instant ambi-ejection system, such as featured in the Beretta ARX-160, or the Longziz #1 Prototype, is key to a successful operating platform for all shooters, in all shooting scenarios.

The bullpup version of Radom's MSBS comes close. Switchable ejection isn't as quick as the ARX, but is faster than the other bullpups on the market.
 


Thanks, hadn't seen that one before.
The bullpup shown in the video, at least, is definitely in mockup phase, but will be interesting to see what happens with it.
Link Posted: 9/28/2013 7:24:55 PM EST
[#28]
This is the very last M17S Bullpup produced by Bushmaster.

Prior to everything being boxed up and shipped to Ilion, NY in 2011 (to be scrapped), BFI offered to build me a M17S from the remaining parts (for warranty purposes), so I got the pick of the litter on everything.
Needless to say, I jumped all over it.

Here it is prior to leaving Windham, ME


Wanting to do something different with my new Ugly Duckling, I decided to ship it K&M for a few modifications.



Fast forward a couple years. Never wasting a chance to buy a firearm, especially a discontinued one. I purchased two addition M17S off gunbroker. These two are consecutive serial numbered, unmolested and unfired. They even came in the original Quality Parts Company (We Are Bushmaster) cardboard boxes.


With K&M introducing an updated version of this Bullpup and some parts being interchangeable, I hope to convert these two into a different calibers.....300BLK & 6.5 Grendal. Hopefully the barrels will be available by next summer.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 3:04:11 PM EST
[#29]
This a stupid idea.

With bushmaster m17s floating around no one will want to pay $1800 for this.

Why not use the basic design and make it look like a famas or l85.
Link Posted: 9/30/2013 4:00:52 PM EST
[#30]
$1800 is too rich for a toy to me, especially from a company that we have no experience dealing with in terms of repairs, problems, parts support, etc.

Looks cool though! Hopefully they'll be a big hit and I can pick one up for a more reasonable (to my budget) price down the road!
Link Posted: 11/18/2013 8:22:36 PM EST
[#31]
Link Posted: 11/18/2013 8:23:14 PM EST
[#32]
Link Posted: 11/19/2013 3:12:46 AM EST
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
$1800 is too rich for a toy to me, especially from a company that we have no experience dealing with in terms of repairs, problems, parts support, etc.

Looks cool though! Hopefully they'll be a big hit and I can pick one up for a more reasonable (to my budget) price down the road!
View Quote


Considering the price of guns these days, $1800 is a stone bargain for what you're getting, and K&M has been around the M17S scene long enough to have earned some measure of trustworthiness.
Link Posted: 11/19/2013 6:06:15 AM EST
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Considering the price of guns these days, $1800 is a stone bargain for what you're getting, and K&M has been around the M17S scene long enough to have earned some measure of trustworthiness.
View Quote

The pricing is a legitimate issue. You can buy a used Bushmaster M17S for $700 and get the mods done for $500... there's something of a price difference there. Not to mention that the competition (AUG, Tavor) is in the same pricing ballpark, but have much better designs (not knocking K&M on that point, it's just an observation). They'd get a lot more takers at $1400, albeit I don't know if it could be profitably produced at that price point, given the all-aluminum construction.
Link Posted: 11/19/2013 6:18:04 AM EST
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

The pricing is a legitimate issue. You can buy a used Bushmaster M17S for $700 and get the mods done for $500... there's something of a price difference there. Not to mention that the competition (AUG, Tavor) is in the same pricing ballpark, but have much better designs (not knocking K&M on that point, it's just an observation). They'd get a lot more takers at $1400, albeit I don't know if it could be profitably produced at that price point, given the all-aluminum construction.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Considering the price of guns these days, $1800 is a stone bargain for what you're getting, and K&M has been around the M17S scene long enough to have earned some measure of trustworthiness.

The pricing is a legitimate issue. You can buy a used Bushmaster M17S for $700 and get the mods done for $500... there's something of a price difference there. Not to mention that the competition (AUG, Tavor) is in the same pricing ballpark, but have much better designs (not knocking K&M on that point, it's just an observation). They'd get a lot more takers at $1400, albeit I don't know if it could be profitably produced at that price point, given the all-aluminum construction.


I'm not sure you could make the case that the other bullpups available in the US have a much better design.  The K&M M17S is an all metal gun that shares parts with what is arguably the most common gun platform available in the US these days. It's biggest disadvantage is that it isn't being developed by a major manufacturer with name recognition and military contracts.
Link Posted: 11/19/2013 6:28:56 AM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
. It's biggest disadvantage is that it isn't being developed by a major manufacturer with name recognition and military contracts.
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That is a huge issue for me.
Link Posted: 11/19/2013 11:41:07 AM EST
[#37]
Why all aluminum and not polymer? Seems that should bring the price down some.
Link Posted: 11/20/2013 5:23:57 PM EST
[#38]
MAN whats up with these designs!!!!!!!  still looks like a 70's design mule!    and same goes for this St George 22mag bullpup...and the bulldog shotgun.  visually they SUCK!  form may follow function but if you want sales better make the package hot looking .      sorry for the rant.
Link Posted: 11/20/2013 11:39:58 PM EST
[#39]
.308 ?




Maybe?







Someday?











Soon?













Link Posted: 11/25/2013 2:35:46 PM EST
[#40]
I wanna see this thing succeed. Sounds very promising, once people get past the whole "is he a reputable manufacturer?" I have heard nothing but good when referring to his work.
Link Posted: 12/25/2013 3:55:00 PM EST
[#41]
If I didn't already find a M17s and have Ken work on it, I may have purchased his new improved design.
But for now I'm very satisfied with my rifle and his work. He took great care in fixing things wrong with it that I didn't even know about for no extra charge even though I offered. Turn around time was what he quoted me also. I wish him good luck with his new product.



Next to my 16" 50ae upper. Standard grips are always small for me, so I wrap in paracord to bulk them up a bit.
Link Posted: 12/26/2013 4:58:56 PM EST
[#42]
The only issue I have with the rifle is that if you want a LH gun itd be a custom order after the first run.

The problem with the Tavor is that you have to tear the whole damn thing apart to change the caliber. Thats why I didnt get the 9mm kit. HEAVY trigger

The AUG has the goofy charging handle. HEAVY trigger.

The K&M is US made, comes with a already upgraded trigger, rails to can add on or take off, takes AR mags, If you already have a M17S you can use your upper on the K&M.

I really hope this takes off for Ken. Hopefully sometime in the future Ill be able to get one.
Link Posted: 12/26/2013 8:01:26 PM EST
[#43]
Options are always a good thing. And this new M17S does have some upgrades.

But in the small, niche bullpup market. Is there really a big desire for another/upgraded M17S that was originally never popular to begin with?

Link Posted: 1/13/2014 10:10:15 AM EST
[#44]
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If I didn't already find a M17s and have Ken work on it, I may have purchased his new improved design.
But for now I'm very satisfied with my rifle and his work. He took great care in fixing things wrong with it that I didn't even know about for no extra charge even though I offered. Turn around time was what he quoted me also. I wish him good luck with his new product.

<a href="http://s1353.photobucket.com/user/Sparsky/media/image_zps33e78171.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q679/Sparsky/image_zps33e78171.jpg</a>

Next to my 16" 50ae upper. Standard grips are always small for me, so I wrap in paracord to bulk them up a bit.
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Wow there isn't really alot of difference in length, I am surprised.
Link Posted: 1/13/2014 10:30:39 AM EST
[#45]
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Quoted:


Wow there isn't really alot of difference in length, I am surprised.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
If I didn't already find a M17s and have Ken work on it, I may have purchased his new improved design.
But for now I'm very satisfied with my rifle and his work. He took great care in fixing things wrong with it that I didn't even know about for no extra charge even though I offered. Turn around time was what he quoted me also. I wish him good luck with his new product.

<a href="http://s1353.photobucket.com/user/Sparsky/media/image_zps33e78171.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q679/Sparsky/image_zps33e78171.jpg</a>

Next to my 16" 50ae upper. Standard grips are always small for me, so I wrap in paracord to bulk them up a bit.


Wow there isn't really alot of difference in length, I am surprised.


Stock isn't extended to a usable length on the upper rifle, and no flash hider/brake/muzzle device.
Link Posted: 1/13/2014 10:37:24 AM EST
[#46]
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Quoted:


Wow there isn't really alot of difference in length, I am surprised.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If I didn't already find a M17s and have Ken work on it, I may have purchased his new improved design.
But for now I'm very satisfied with my rifle and his work. He took great care in fixing things wrong with it that I didn't even know about for no extra charge even though I offered. Turn around time was what he quoted me also. I wish him good luck with his new product.

<a href="http://s1353.photobucket.com/user/Sparsky/media/image_zps33e78171.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q679/Sparsky/image_zps33e78171.jpg</a>

Next to my 16" 50ae upper. Standard grips are always small for me, so I wrap in paracord to bulk them up a bit.


Wow there isn't really alot of difference in length, I am surprised.


Let me give you a slightly different perspective:



16" AR with the stock fully collapsed on the bottom, bone stock M17S on the top.  Unless you have arms like a smurf, you're not going to be able to use the AR with the stock fully collapsed.
Link Posted: 1/14/2014 6:41:57 AM EST
[#47]
I've kind of stayed out of the discussion regarding the M17, because I didn't want to get caught in a flame war in the event I gore someone's favorite bull, but I'm to the point that I've got to comment on the M17 anyway.

I had a love/hate affair with the M17. I had one for about three years. It was great space-wise, being a bullpup (the love-part), but when in actual use it had just way too many unpleasant things going for it (the hate part).

First and foremost, it was one of the most unreliable weapons I ever owned. It was truly a jam-o-matic. I believe that the mag catch and bolt path were placed improperly, resulting in making getting the mag to lock in difficult and also causing the mag to seat just low enough that the bolt would not strip and chamber a round with any degree of consistency. The bolt was always skimming along the top of the rounds in the mags, scuffing them up or gouging them, but not moving them. At other times, the bolt wasn't catching the round properly to seat the bullet onto the bolt face and the round would be stripped from the mag without the bolt controlling it, resulting in the bullet tip and round being canted and jammed forward outside of the chamber (I actually had one jammed up around where the guide rods were).

Second, the plastic/fiberglass (or whatever it was that they made the lowers out of) magwell had inward bowing along the sides, making it a PITA to put a mag in without completely repositioning the rifle. Also, because of this, mags had to be pulled free, 'cuz they sure weren't dropping.

Third, the one-piece aluminum receiver had no handguard type protection whatsoever from heating up. And boy-howdy do these rifles heat up quickly and intolerably. It rendered safely handling the rifle impossible. I spoke with Bushmaster when they were still making these rifles and was told that they were aware of the rapid heating and need to carry a hot-pad with you to hold the rifle, but that they had no solution and were too busy making ARs to do any R&D on the M17's problems (that conversation was just a few months after the 9/11 attacks). When Kurt's/KKF was around, their solution was to place a forward pistol grip on the underside of the rifle. That works fine, but by all means stay away from touching the aluminum upper forward of the sights if you have shot two mags through the rifle unless you are in the witness protection program and need to burn off your fingerprints.

Fourth, when it came to firing, I can say that shooting the M17 was a truly emotional experience. Mainly, because your range buddies will think that you are crying like a little girl. The ejection port is located exactly even with the location of where I obtained my cheekweld. All of the fumes/gases leaving the chamber came right out in my face, making seeing through the tears and breathing difficult in rapid strings of fire. My STG is nothing like this and the escaping gases do not affect me at all.

I'm happy for those that enjoy theirs, because it is a very reasonably priced bullpup, but with all of the issues, I couldn't justify keeping mine.  I don't miss it at all.  I'd buy another MSAR before an M17, and since an AUG is now around the same price as what MSAR dealers are asking, I'd buy AUGs all day long before another M17.

Unless there were good solutions to the problems I experienced, I wouldn't put near the money they are asking into this thing.  
Link Posted: 1/14/2014 6:49:25 AM EST
[#48]
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MAN whats up with these designs!!!!!!!  still looks like a 70's design mule!    and same goes for this St George 22mag bullpup...and the bulldog shotgun.  visually they SUCK!  form may follow function but if you want sales better make the package hot looking .      sorry for the rant.
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And the AR-15 was designed in the 1950's....

Liked the updating of the Bushmaster design but I don't think I would buy at that price. Just bought an AUG that is sexier.
Link Posted: 1/14/2014 9:52:50 AM EST
[#49]
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Quoted:
I've kind of stayed out of the discussion regarding the M17, because I didn't want to get caught in a flame war in the event I gore someone's favorite bull, but I'm to the point that I've got to comment on the M17 anyway.

[...]

Unless there were good solutions to the problems I experienced, I wouldn't put near the money they are asking into this thing.  
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Glad you weighed in before I did, as the OP is an acquaintance of mine from the NVHTF.

Never owned a Bushmaster M17 myself, but a pal bought one NIB back in 1988.  It changed hands to another owner within a year or so.  I've also encountered several more over the years since the 80s.  They're all you said and more.   The Bushmaster M17 is one of the guns on my list that I hope doesn't make an appearance in whatever shooting party I am with.

Bravo, I guess, to the fan who has allegedly remedied the shortcomings of the M17 after a quarter century.  

I'll just say that anyone ready to part with $1900 for one of these revamped M17s when they Steyr AUG sells for the same price probably has a hole in their head.  Of course, I do recognize that sleeve-tattooed hipster kids these days are indeed paying good money to have portholes installed into their skulls, so maybe I am just an old square.  

Link Posted: 1/14/2014 11:05:05 AM EST
[#50]
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Quoted:


Glad you weighed in before I did, as the OP is an acquaintance of mine from the NVHTF.

Never owned a Bushmaster M17 myself, but a pal bought one NIB back in 1988.  It changed hands to another owner within a year or so.  I've also encountered several more over the years since the 80s.  They're all you said and more.   The Bushmaster M17 is one of the guns on my list that I hope doesn't make an appearance in whatever shooting party I am with.

Bravo, I guess, to the fan who has allegedly remedied the shortcomings of the M17 after a quarter century.  

I'll just say that anyone ready to part with $1900 for one of these revamped M17s when they Steyr AUG sells for the same price probably has a hole in their head.  Of course, I do recognize that sleeve-tattooed hipster kids these days are indeed paying good money to have portholes installed into their skulls, so maybe I am just an old square.  

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Quoted:
Quoted:
I've kind of stayed out of the discussion regarding the M17, because I didn't want to get caught in a flame war in the event I gore someone's favorite bull, but I'm to the point that I've got to comment on the M17 anyway.

[...]

Unless there were good solutions to the problems I experienced, I wouldn't put near the money they are asking into this thing.  


Glad you weighed in before I did, as the OP is an acquaintance of mine from the NVHTF.

Never owned a Bushmaster M17 myself, but a pal bought one NIB back in 1988.  It changed hands to another owner within a year or so.  I've also encountered several more over the years since the 80s.  They're all you said and more.   The Bushmaster M17 is one of the guns on my list that I hope doesn't make an appearance in whatever shooting party I am with.

Bravo, I guess, to the fan who has allegedly remedied the shortcomings of the M17 after a quarter century.  

I'll just say that anyone ready to part with $1900 for one of these revamped M17s when they Steyr AUG sells for the same price probably has a hole in their head.  Of course, I do recognize that sleeve-tattooed hipster kids these days are indeed paying good money to have portholes installed into their skulls, so maybe I am just an old square.  



That's funny, because I've had six M17s' over the years, and all of them have been reliable and accurate.  The stock ones do tend to heat up significantly, but not to the point that they can't be handled with a pair of shooting gloves.  Add a lower rail and VFG and it becomes a non-issue.  As for the price, well, if you want to pay that much for a gun designed in the 60's as opposed to a gun designed basically last year, that's up to you.  I'll take Ken's updated M17S over an Aug any day.
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