Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
New to NV: School Me (Page 1 of 3)
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Posted: 3/19/2017 12:43:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2017 1:05:06 PM EDT by Tomac]
I'm starting to get the itch for some NV gear, but funds are limited and my personal knowledge even more so. I've read here and other places but still no specific leanings.
For civvie use (say 50-100yds appx), what's the best budget-friendly setup should I be looking at? Helmet-mounted w/IR laser on rifle? Rifle-mounted NV optics, what? (AA battery usage preferred but not a deal-killer)
I don't want a dedicated rifle setup so QD if rifle-mounted would be helpful.
TIA!...

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:06:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tomac:
I'm starting to get the itch for some NV gear, but funds are limited and my personal knowledge even more so. I've read here and other places but still no specific leanings.
For civvie use, what's the best budget-friendly setup should I be looking at? Helmet-mounted w/IR laser on rifle? Rifle-mounted NV optics, what? (AA battery usage preferred but not a deal-killer)
TIA!...

Tomac
View Quote


Letting us know what your intended use is going to be a lot more helpful. Generally GEN 1 night vision devices will save you a ton of money but have very limited use compared to GEN 2 and 3. A lot of people still use GEN 1 devices because they are the most affordable. Granted most you will not see beyond 100 yards without active IR illumination with a 850nm IR light for GEN 1. It all comes down to your budget and your intended use. The night vision game can be and will be stupid expensive if you don't play your cards right. Look on youtube for videos in all different generation of night vision to help make a decision. To be honest, if you're not kicking in doors or hunting bad guys on the daily grind then I see no use for you to buy the latest and greatest.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:10:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By crazy_raccoon:


Letting us know what your intended use is going to be a lot more helpful. Generally GEN 1 night vision devices will save you a ton of money but have very limited use compared to GEN 2 and 3. A lot of people still use GEN 1 devices because they are the most affordable. Granted most you will not see beyond 100 yards without active IR illumination with a 850nm IR light for GEN 1. It all comes down to your budget and your intended use. The night vision game can be and will be stupid expensive if you don't play your cards right. Look on youtube for videos in all different generation of night vision to help make a decision. To be honest, if you're not kicking in doors or hunting bad guys on the daily grind then I see no use for you to buy the latest and greatest.
View Quote
Thx. I've edited my OP some already, this would be for 'things that go bump in the night' use, no hunting. I'm not against using active IR to boost range/performance.
I've read that Gen1 is generally crap and should be avoided if you can afford better, it's the 'if you can afford better' that's tough. Sub-$1K would be ideal, maybe a bit more if I gain substantial ruggedness/performance for the increased cost.

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:12:52 PM EDT
What is your budget?

Do you want to do precision shooting or dynamic shooting?

Do you already have a helmet?

Do you already have an infrared capable light?

Do you already have an infrared capable dot sight?

Today's assumption is that you already have a 5.56mm railed carbine but that may not be true.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:19:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2017 1:20:15 PM EDT by Tomac]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
What is your budget? As mentioned above, sub-$1K would be ideal, a little more if justified

Do you want to do precision shooting or dynamic shooting? Dynamic primarily

Do you already have a helmet? Yes, but no attachments for it

Do you already have an infrared capable light? No

Do you already have an infrared capable dot sight? No, Trijicon MRO

Today's assumption is that you already have a 5.56mm railed carbine but that may not be true. Yes
View Quote
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:21:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:27:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Thx. I've edited my OP some already, this would be for 'things that go bump in the night' use, no hunting. I'm not against using active IR to boost range/performance.
I've read that Gen1 is generally crap and should be avoided if you can afford better, it's the 'if you can afford better' that's tough. Sub-$1K would be ideal, maybe a bit more if I gain substantial ruggedness/performance for the increased cost.

Tomac
View Quote
Every now and then you can find great deals on the EE for GEN 2 and 3 devices but they usually get bought up very quickly and that goes the same for eBay. If you can't find a good deal and you want to make your monies worth then dry to find a monocular device that can be handheld and helmet mounted but can also be weapon mounted in case you wanted to use it for hunting or shooting stuff in the dark. This makes it easily adapting for whatever situation you're in. As for being sub $1K...that's when being a baller on a budget does not mix. Usually devices that can adapt to all sorts of things will easily put you over $1K and usually in the $1,500 - $2,500 to being able to afford something worth while but still being borderline budget while getting excellent performance. If you can snag up a good deal on old Gen 2 devices that were used by the military in the 80's and 90's then by all means try them out. Just keep in mind with older stuff you play a gamble if they are in still useful condition to almost dead and having to be rebuilt or replaced.

Another issue to is accessories and mounting options. This can get very expensive. If you want a brand new device and used surplus mounting hardware then a decent GEN 1 monocular that can accept surplus head mounted hardware will easily put you less than $1K.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:29:37 PM EDT
Is the budget sub 1K for the whole setup or just the monocular?

You could probably get into a used PVS-14 in Gen 2 with a shroud/RHNO for your helmet and an economy laser for about $1450.

Add a SolarForce IR light for $35.

Add a Surefire M952V for about $125.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 1:58:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
Is the budget sub 1K for the whole setup or just the monocular? Preferably for the whole setup
You could probably get into a used PVS-14 in Gen 2 with a shroud/RHNO for your helmet and an economy laser for about $1450.

Add a SolarForce IR light for $35.

Add a Surefire M952V for about $125.
View Quote
How about a weapon-mounted monocular behind the Trijicon MRO (which is NV-compatible) w/IR illuminator?

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 3:45:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2017 3:46:09 PM EDT by Augee]
The best way to go about it in your situation, IMHO, would be to invest in a helmet mounted monocular setup--PVS-14 is usually the "go to," and takes AA batteries as per your request.

Ops-Core Base Jump (now just "Bump") is probably the best balance of budget/purpose designed helmet if you don't need ballistic protection, they can usually be had for a little over $200 used, and come with an advanced suspension, helmet rails, and a built in shroud.

A used PVS-14 will run you anywhere from $1,500-$2,500 depending on quality and specs, while new ones will be in the $2,500 and up range, from factory blem units up to top of the line WP versions.

Regardless, you will need more than just the device and the helmet, you will also need some sort of articulating arm ("mount"), as well as a device interface from the PVS-14 to the mount ("J-Arm"), of which several models of both are available with different types of interfaces, and features, and can run you anywhere from $30 for a used USGI Rhino and J-Arm, to $500-$700 for a top of the line Wilcox model with a dovetail mount interface and device interface. Often, particularly with used units (but some new unit retailers as well), PVS-14s will be sold with "packages" that include not only the device, but the mount and J-Arm, sometimes even helmets and IR lasers and other accessories are included. If you're able to drop the cash on some of these "packages," you can often get some great deals.

For aiming, the easiest and cheapest thing for you, since you already have an NV-compatible optic would be to simply put a riser under your MRO--you usually want at least 1.93" over receiver height, preferably closer to 2" ("standard" AR sight lines are ~1.4-1.5" for "absolute cowitness," while Lower-1/3 sight lines are ~1.75-1.80"), and sight through your RDS with your NVD--it will take some getting used to the "heads up" shooting methods, and it may feel weird at first, but can have advantages for both day and night shooting, and also allows you to use your RDS like an RDS at night, rather than having to change your entire target engagement methodology to use an IR laser while using NVDs. While not directly applicable to you, you might look into Jason Falla's new Aimpoint Micro mount from KAC. Many risers are available at 1/2" heights including those from companies like KAC and YHM among many others, while more specialized options exist like 5/8" risers from LaRue and 3/4" risers from KAC (list is not all inclusive).

If you'd rather use a laser, or want to also have an IR laser as an option, low end options include devices like the LaserMax UNI-IR and Crimson Trace Rail Master IR, which can be had for about $150-ish depending on new/used/retailer/sales/options. These are very simple, no frills units that will provide you with an IR aiming laser, and not much else.

You can also save up more, and go with a more "full service" unit, with devices like the Steiner DBAL-I2 (SS) and DBAL-A3 or L3 ATPIAL-C which not only feature multifunction lasers, but also onboard laser based IR illuminators, and are designed (derived from) for military use as laser aiming modules (LAMs), and can run you anywhere from about $700-$1,500, again, depending on model/features and new/used.

Finally, if you really have the cash, you can always snag the newly released B.E. Meyers MAWL-C1 for $2,500, which is the current "top of the line" model, which has some very nifty features, particularly for the illuminator that put it in a class of its own vis-a-vis civilian-legal IR LAMs, but it comes with a matching price tag.

~Augee
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 3:57:31 PM EDT
Ouch, sounds like I need to hock a kidney on Craigslist!...
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 4:44:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:
Ouch, sounds like I need to hock a kidney on Craigslist!...
View Quote
You can take baby steps or wade in.

This is not much different than any significant expenditure.

Most people have rigid concepts regarding how NV will be deployed. It can be deployed different ways using different ancillary gear - which all costs.

If you skimp anywhere, I suggest that it not be on the MNVD. I suggest a minimum of a Gen 2 PVS-14 for real world use.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 5:08:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2017 5:17:31 PM EDT by crazy_raccoon]
Hey Tomac, if you really wanted to use NVG's on a budget for something that goes bump in the night then you're just going to set yourself up for failure. NOD's and budget do not and will never mix unless you pay a decent sum to make it military/self defense useful. I would just invest in a very bright flash light to blind the hell out of the perp if that was the case. Even the old 2 feet mag lights are still useful. You blind em and then bump in the head or face.

Believe me. I was on a budget too when I first started out. Since I do use these type of devices every now and then in my line of work I decided to save up for something that would last me in the long run without having to sell my soul to the devil. I ended up getting a PVS-14 with a Gen 2+ tube for my personal use. We use the latest and greatest Gen 3+ and thermal devices at work but for my day to day needs it was impractical for me. Even now I still want a Gen 1 device for hiking and camping uses so I don't wear out my PVS-14.

Hopefully you don't have to get clearance to make big purchases such as this. I had to ask my financial bank corporation (The Mrs...) several times if I could make an investment with NOD's and still do since I would like to get another rifle. Go by your means brother. Afford what you can for now or save up. You can't go cheap on this stuff if you want some type of tactical performance out of it. You can always upgrade later down the road if you're still into the night vision game.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 5:31:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
You can take baby steps or wade in.

This is not much different than any significant expenditure.

Most people have rigid concepts regarding how NV will be deployed. It can be deployed different ways using different ancillary gear - which all costs.

If you skimp anywhere, I suggest that it not be on the MNVD. I suggest a minimum of a Gen 2 PVS-14 for real world use.
View Quote
Good soureces for a Gen2 PVS-14? Thx!...

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 5:43:58 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Good soureces for a Gen2 PVS-14? Thx!...

Tomac
View Quote
In the pat three months one of my friends bought a used Gen 2 PVS-14 for $1200 on the EE. Save your money and wait.

Don't rush. Keep reading. The MNVD is the most important piece. You can cut corners elsewhere.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 8:01:51 PM EDT
Save for Gen3.

Trust me. If you want to save, buy a used Gen3, but buy Gen 3.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 8:03:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lilMAC25:
Save for Gen3.
Trust me. If you want to save, buy a used Gen3, but buy Gen 3.
View Quote
Why is Gen3 that much better than Gen2? Honest question.

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 8:43:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Why is Gen3 that much better than Gen2? Honest question.

Tomac
View Quote
You can find gen2 tubes that perform about as well as modern gen3, but they are not made in the US and usually cost more than new US made gen3 tubes. And they are a lot harder to source. As far as the average, somewhat easy to find gen2 tube goes, they tend to have very noticeable less performance than most all current US made gen3 tubes.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 8:47:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Why is Gen3 that much better than Gen2? Honest question.

Tomac
View Quote
This is a whole conversation/argument all to itself. Some of the new Gen 2 is actually quite capable. Much of the older Gen 2 and some of the new Gen 2 are garbage. It's easier to get a good Gen 3 unit than a good Gen 2 unit so the above comment from lilMAC25 has significant merit - I just don't think in such absolutist terms as he does.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 8:55:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Why is Gen3 that much better than Gen2? Honest question.

Tomac
View Quote
See here

omni

and here
gen 2 vs gen 3
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 9:00:13 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
This is a whole conversation/argument all to itself. Some of the new Gen 2 is actually quite capable. Much of the older Gen 2 and some of the new Gen 2 are garbage. It's easier to get a good Gen 3 unit than a good Gen 2 unit so the above comment from lilMAC25 has significant merit - I just don't think in such absolutist terms as he does.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Why is Gen3 that much better than Gen2? Honest question.

Tomac
This is a whole conversation/argument all to itself. Some of the new Gen 2 is actually quite capable. Much of the older Gen 2 and some of the new Gen 2 are garbage. It's easier to get a good Gen 3 unit than a good Gen 2 unit so the above comment from lilMAC25 has significant merit - I just don't think in such absolutist terms as he does.
Well the reason I said it was referenced above... really good Gen2 costs about the same as decent Gen3.

If you MUST have a warranty, save your pennies (or sell some extra rifles) and buy Gen3 from TNVC or UNV. Both are site sponsors and both will go out of your way to make your experience awesome.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 9:56:40 PM EDT
I feel like one of my firearm-ignorant friends who asks for gun purchasing advice.
I wish I had the money to call TNVC and just say "ship it, cost be d@mned!", but financial reality often gets in the way of wishes.
I'm willing to consider a PVS-14 Gen3, even if I have to sell a couple of guns to help finance it, but TNVC is more than I'll be able to swing.
How can you tell if you're getting a decent PVS-14 from other vendors (I've seen one advertised new for $1,699 w/o accessories, too good to be true?)

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 11:56:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:
I feel like one of my firearm-ignorant friends who asks for gun purchasing advice.
I wish I had the money to call TNVC and just say "ship it, cost be d@mned!", but financial reality often gets in the way of wishes.
I'm willing to consider a PVS-14 Gen3, even if I have to sell a couple of guns to help finance it, but TNVC is more than I'll be able to swing.
How can you tell if you're getting a decent PVS-14 from other vendors (I've seen one advertised new for $1,699 w/o accessories, too good to be true?)

Tomac
View Quote
Seriously, if you want to get the most out of the NV experience, read all of the current threads. Get up to date. Ask reasonable questions and be willing to admit your ignorance. Read the "Dos and don'ts of NVG" thread that TechOps and I ran recently.

I'm not personally always of the "Buy once, cry once" philosophy. If I could make you do what I wanted then I would make you get a beater PVS-14 that you didn't worry about ruining so you would get the most out of it - and if you did hurt it ten you wouldn't cry about it. You can get brand new Carson PVS-14 kits for $700 and used, blemished 10160 tubes for another $700. As far as I'm concerned, that's a running start. Those are stout tubes and you'll have to work to kill it.

That's my two cents.
Link Posted: 3/19/2017 11:59:45 PM EDT
I started out with a Gen 2 D-300. Ended up with a Gen 3 PVS-14. I definitely don't regret going up to Gen 3, and do wish i'd have started there. BUT... I think Gen 2 can be highly useful as well. My little D-300 has been extremely handy to let other people check out night vision without risking my more expensive stuff, and especially with a bit of aid from IR lights, It's pretty capable. I've been considering selling it off and going for another pvs-14 so I can do the binocular setup thing, though.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 1:24:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2017 1:27:33 AM EDT by MunnyShot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Why is Gen3 that much better than Gen2? Honest question.

Tomac
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Why is Gen3 that much better than Gen2? Honest question.

Tomac
Gen3 Pros: usually autogated, you can see much better inside of very dark structures, under heavy canopy, no moon/star nights w/o additional IR light, greater tube life @ 10K hours.
Cons: Not all Gen3 tube are created equal so beware and educated before you buy, high cost.

Gen2 Pros: can cost less than 1/2 of most gen3 units, can use supplemental IR light to see just as well as some Gen3 units in very dark structures, under heavy canopy, no moon/star nights. Not all Gen2 are created equal and some can even rival mid to lower end Gen3 units especially when you find a good Gen2+ autogated unit 10K tube life (MX11769).
Cons: you can not see as good as mid-high end Gen3 units w/o supplemental IR light, shorter tube life @ 5K hours.

On a side note I used to feel that a Gen3 Omni VIII tube was very superior to my Gen2+ unit because of the better performance in the very dark areas. In an urban environment my unit preforms excellent, so I can't justify spending the extra 1.5K on higher end Omni VIII at this time.
This is a good break down of the difference Omni class Gen3 tubes. Learn to know the meaning of S/N ratio and Resolution lp/mm. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/317705_.html
Originally Posted By Tomac:


Good source for a Gen2 PVS-14? Thx!...

Tomac
Call Matt at NightOpsTactical ask about their Gen2+ Autogated MX11769 10K hour unit and when will they go on sale. I got a smoking referral deal set up through a LMS Defense instructor.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 11:16:05 AM EDT
TNVC is offering financing for purchasing their equipment. The terms aren't great but it is an option. It is a third part bank that actually does the financing.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 12:16:10 PM EDT
I know the PVS-7 is often looked down upon but I'll go head and recommend them. A gen three 7 can be had for about a 1K, bayo mounts are 20-50 bucks and a unimax IR or CT IR rail laser is 150 bucks or so.

I started with a PVS-7 and really liked it, got a mono (AB Micro) and was kinda "meh", bought a super high spec PVS-14 and was still "meh" so i went back to binos, with two tubes this time in a ANVIS set. Monos just gave me a headache, no depth perception with 7s is still a lot better than a pounding headache and crossed eyes with a 14 (of course dual tubes are king since pano NVGs are effectively unobtainable )
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 12:34:46 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I know the PVS-7 is often looked down upon but I'll go head and recommend them. A gen three 7 can be had for about a 1K, bayo mounts are 20-50 bucks and a unimax IR or CT IR rail laser is 150 bucks or so.

I started with a PVS-7 and really liked it, got a mono (AB Micro) and was kinda "meh", bought a super high spec PVS-14 and was still "meh" so i went back to binos, with two tubes this time in a ANVIS set. Monos just gave me a headache, no depth perception with 7s is still a lot better than a pounding headache and crossed eyes with a 14 (of course dual tubes are king since pano NVGs are effectively unobtainable )
View Quote
There are exceptions but most people can train around any problems using a monocular. The PVS-7 is good for two applications - static observation and low level training users. A beginner can get up to speed with a biocular unit faster than they can with a monocular but there are a lot of things a biocular will never be able to do. I was definitely resistant to using an MNVD at first but I pushed through it. The MNVD, though simpler in design, is way more versatile.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 12:40:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Pantexan:
TNVC is offering financing for purchasing their equipment. The terms aren't great but it is an option. It is a third part bank that actually does the financing.
View Quote
I don't know anyone who needs NVG's enough to make them worth financing...
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 1:13:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:

I don't know anyone who needs NVG's enough to make them worth financing...
View Quote
If the expenditure is so great that financing is required then the unit will probably be considered precious cargo and reside in the back of the safe. I would rather see all of us get gear that we can afford and then use.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 1:41:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2017 1:42:25 PM EDT by 35Remington]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:

I don't know anyone who needs NVG's enough to make them worth financing...
View Quote
No fcking kidding. It scares me to think there are people out there who can't make ends meet yet think they deserve some NV gear. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 1:45:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Augee:

For aiming, the easiest and cheapest thing for you, since you already have an NV-compatible optic would be to simply put a riser under your MRO--you usually want at least 1.93" over receiver height, preferably closer to 2" ("standard" AR sight lines are ~1.4-1.5" for "absolute cowitness," while Lower-1/3 sight lines are ~1.75-1.80"), and sight through your RDS with your NVD--it will take some getting used to the "heads up" shooting methods, and it may feel weird at first, but can have advantages for both day and night shooting, and also allows you to use your RDS like an RDS at night, rather than having to change your entire target engagement methodology to use an IR laser while using NVDs. While not directly applicable to you, you might look into Jason Falla's new Aimpoint Micro mount from KAC. Many risers are available at 1/2" heights including those from companies like KAC and YHM among many others, while more specialized options exist like 5/8" risers from LaRue and 3/4" risers from KAC (list is not all inclusive).
View Quote
This is relevant to my interests. Can you unpack it a bit? For example, I see most people say to mount a monocular on your non-dominant eye. So using the RDS-aiming-method, would you mount the monocular to your dominant eye? That's the way it makes sense to me.

I ask because it is insane to me that I need to spend another $1,000 for a "good" laser to use with NV for hog hunting.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 3:28:16 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 35Remington:


This is relevant to my interests. Can you unpack it a bit? For example, I see most people say to mount a monocular on your non-dominant eye. So using the RDS-aiming-method, would you mount the monocular to your dominant eye? That's the way it makes sense to me.

I ask because it is insane to me that I need to spend another $1,000 for a "good" laser to use with NV for hog hunting.
View Quote
I'm not going too deep into this because I am currently doing a full tilt study on sighting methodologies against the clock. I will post when complete.

There is more than one way to sight a carbine using NV. I would venture to say that there are even a few different ways to sight a carbine using an RDS under NVD.

If you run the MNVD on the dominant eye and sight the RDS through the MNVD then your position is going to be massively distorted. Any hope of a followup shot is over rated. Try dry training this and you will see that it is possible but impractical.

If your NPA is good enough and the distance is short enough then Bindon may work for you. Your position is relatively unchanged and followup is much faster.

There are a lot of dual purpose lasers on the market at $1,000 and above but they are not necessary and the illuminators that I have seen conjoined with a laser have all disappointed me. A single purpose laser like the Steiner OTAL will do the job at $400 (new retail).
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 3:50:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
I'm not going too deep into this because I am currently doing a full tilt study on sighting methodologies against the clock. I will post when complete.

There is more than one way to sight a carbine using NV. I would venture to say that there are even a few different ways to sight a carbine using an RDS under NVD.

If you run the MNVD on the dominant eye and sight the RDS through the MNVD then your position is going to be massively distorted. Any hope of a followup shot is over rated. Try dry training this and you will see that it is possible but impractical.

If your NPA is good enough and the distance is short enough then Bindon may work for you. Your position is relatively unchanged and followup is much faster.

There are a lot of dual purpose lasers on the market at $1,000 and above but they are not necessary and the illuminators that I have seen conjoined with a laser have all disappointed me. A single purpose laser like the Steiner OTAL will do the job at $400 (new retail).
View Quote
I am not OP3R8OR enough to know about things like Bindon and NPA. I googled Bindon—ok, got it. I already shoot with both eyes open majority of the time. Couldn't figger out what NPA was.

So MVND on non-dom eye and look through RDS with night-adjusted eye?
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 4:06:51 PM EDT
NPA is natural point of aim.

Personally, as a right handed shooter, I've always ran NVG over the left eye.  Prevents issues with the NVG hitting my ACOG/Elcan when I index the rifle.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 4:16:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
@35Remington:
View Quote
I'll post some more on this later tonight when I have more time.

~Augee
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 11:40:57 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Augee:


I'll post some more on this later tonight when I have more time.

~Augee
View Quote
Subscribed
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 1:18:33 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I know the PVS-7 is often looked down upon but I'll go head and recommend them. A gen three 7 can be had for about a 1K, bayo mounts are 20-50 bucks and a unimax IR or CT IR rail laser is 150 bucks or so.

I started with a PVS-7 and really liked it, got a mono (AB Micro) and was kinda "meh", bought a super high spec PVS-14 and was still "meh" so i went back to binos, with two tubes this time in a ANVIS set. Monos just gave me a headache, no depth perception with 7s is still a lot better than a pounding headache and crossed eyes with a 14 (of course dual tubes are king since pano NVGs are effectively unobtainable )
View Quote
I forget the exact number, but a small percentage, around 15% of people simply cannot use a monocular without getting a headache, as their eyes/brain simply cannot integrate the two images. Also, as we've discussed in a previous thread, some folks who have had corrective vision surgery also report similar problems, as surprise surprise--most corrective surgeries are not done with NOD usage in mind.

While I'm generally pretty down on biocular devices (IMHO--they have all the disadvantages of a monocular combined with all the disadvantages of a monocular with none of the advantages of either), for those that fall into these categories, biocular devices are infinitely easier and more comfortable to use, and a more than serviceable option. While I far prefer both BNVDs and MNVDs, I cut my teeth and learned NV using AN/PVS-7s, and compared to no NODs, they were a game changer, even when used with a skull crusher and a PASGT.

~Augee
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 2:56:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2017 2:58:48 AM EDT by Augee]
@35Remington

BLUF:

Yes--if you want to try this technique, it calls for mounting the monocular over your dominant eye.

I need to do a better more detailed write-up in the near future, maybe I can grab some video equipment and do a video, hahaha... but basically it's an alternate method to the use of a laser or hard mounting your NVD to your weapon. It's rather later than I expected it to be, but nevertheless, I'll try to muddle through this, hahaha. My apologies if it's a little bit of a mess, feel free to comment or ask additional clarifying questions for anything I didn't explain very well.

Previously I too had been an advocate of mounting monoculars over the non-dominant eye and the use of lasers as the primary NV aiming method, however, within the last couple of years, I have begun changing my tune. I also use duals about 95% of the time these days, though I have "proofed" the methodology with monoculars as well.

While you mentioned hog hunting--one of the primary onuses behind this technique has been in the increased risk of enemies, both in COIN environments, and peer and near-peer adversaries that have NV technology that can detect active IR emissions, leading to an increased emphasis on passive target engagement techniques. Moreover, the offsets induced by using a LAM are not always ideal, while training a totally different target engagement technique while using VAS (Visual Augmentation Systems) than daytime target engagement is a less than ideal scenario.

In addition to the ability to use NV-compatible red dot optics with head-mounted NODs, there are a growing number of folks who are adopting a more "heads up" shooting technique--Jason Falla did not originate it, and in fact, it was a necessity prior to the introduction of flattop receivers, when optics had to be mounted on carrying handles as a matter of design, not preference, but he has a decent write-up of the basic reasoning behind it:

The "Redback One Shooting System"

...at this year's SHOT Show, Redback One in cooperation with Knight's Armament debuted a new mount and riser system for the Aimpoint Micro to utilize this technique:




Falla makes an argument for the high mounted optic primarily for daytime use, but he makes mention of NV use as well in the article above. While using the "heads up" technique is a matter of preference during the daytime, it is essentially a necessity if you're planning to use your optic as your primary sighting system while wearing NODs, as it is, as others have noted, extremely unwieldy to try to get behind an optic mounted at a more "conventional" height while wearing NODs. Raising the primary optic, however, gives you much more clearance to naturally and organically bring your weapon and optic into your FOV without having an equipment "traffic jam" with your weapon, optic, helmet, NODs, comms/hearing protection.

Certainly using this technique requires a certain amount of adjustment, as it feels unnatural to many shooters when they first try it, as the "standard" sight height relative to the comb of the stock has been relatively consistent for many years--and this is a fairly radical departure from it. One of the primary complaints is the lack of "cheek weld," with many folks noting that they get a "chin weld." Ultimately, however, "cheek weld" is not, in and of itself a fundamental component of marksmanship--what is important is consistent head position and sight picture, cheek weld has just become the common "short hand" for this--but consistency can be achieved without the classic "chipmunk cheek" on the stock, it just requires some practice and acclimatization to a different way of shooting than you might be used to.

Eric Dorenbush of Green Eye Tactical is also a strong advocate of the "heads up" technique and teaches using the RDS as primary for NV in his classes:



That's an EOTech EXPS3-0 - Lower 1/3 height, NV-compatible optic, mounted on a LaRue 5/8" riser on a standard AR upper, which comes out to about a 2.4" height over the upper receiver relative to the "standard" absolute co-witness height of ~1.5".

While this may not be the ideal technique for everyone, it does have the advantage of being relatively cheap and easy to try out--provided you have an NV-compatible optic. While high-end riser and mount systems like the KAC, LaRue, and Wilcox are available, basic 1/2" risers can be had for around $20 from many different companies if you want to try it out as a "proof of concept" before investing in full systems integration for this type of technique, just pop your NV-compatible optic on a riser, move your monocular over your dominant eye, and experiment with the technique. Even with an absolute cowitness sight, a 1/2" riser will give you at least a 2" rise. If it works for you--awesome. If not, just switch everything back, and forget you ever tried such a foolish experiment.

If you can get used the technique, though, it allows you to use your RDS--like an RDS, even at night, even while wearing NODs, while eliminating most of the issues of mechanical offsets induced by the use of a LAM. And while some of the emphasis of this technique is reducing visible IR signature when facing enemies with NV capabilities--if you're using it to hunt hogs, there's no reason you can't also tie an IR illuminator in with it to give you a little bit more detection and identification range.

As an aside, the EOTech is almost as close to ideal of an optic for this technique as can be imagined, as the wide FOV, and narrow hood have a minimal impact on light collection when viewed through an NVD, while tube-style optics like Aimpoints will block a decent amount of light to your device (this is definitely a technique best suited for Gen. 3 devices), with Micro-format sights being among the worst offenders--while they may be nice and light and low profile when shooting both eyes open during the day--at night, through an NVD, the T1 ends up being almost the perfect size to "fill up" your NV FOV, and "suck up" a decent amount of light compared to an EOTech. Nevertheless, even with a Micro-format RDS, this technique is, IMHO, incredibly effective.

Again, IMHO, you've got very little to lose by at least giving it a try, if you don't like it, you can always still move on to a LAM setup, or if it works for you, it can take some of the urgency out of purchasing a LAM, allowing you, at very least, some more time to save up for a better system, rather than buying the first thing that you can afford because you have no other way to shoot at night.

Finally--a crappy old photograph of me demonstrating the technique while wearing AVS-6s using an EOTech XPS on a Wilcox riser mounted to an HK416 (MR556) upper, which, when accounting for the additional height of the HK upper is approximately 2.3" tall:




~Augee
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 8:08:14 AM EDT
Augee post is spot on and hopefully more companies will start making higher mounts for more optics. I use a Larue 1/3 AimPoint LT150 mount on a old KAC RAS II which has a built in riser/bridge that connects a railed upper to the free float rail. I still run BUIS, but didn't bother to raise them because I have a decent RTO with the Larue mount and it avoids all the Monkey Motion associated with risers. Another way to gain more height on a AimPoint Comp/M/Pro/ACO RDS is to use the standard 1/3 QRP II mount with an original QRP 1/2 ring riser. Also using a taller stock with flat sides helps shouldering and keeping your head from being canted over when trying to sight through your RDS.

http://shop.knightarmco.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=KM22243-1
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 9:38:06 AM EDT
@Augee, superb reply. Every time I read it, I glean something more. Much appreciated. I will give this a go using the "proof of concept" route before diving in.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 9:58:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2017 10:29:44 AM EDT by Tomac]
Thanks for all the great info, everyone!
Looking at this from another angle, is there a decent weapon-mounted NV scope for the budget-minded, or a clip-on that would mount in front of my MRO? Thx again!...

Tomac
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 11:08:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Augee:


I forget the exact number, but a small percentage, around 15% of people simply cannot use a monocular without getting a headache, as their eyes/brain simply cannot integrate the two images. Also, as we've discussed in a previous thread, some folks who have had corrective vision surgery also report similar problems, as surprise surprise--most corrective surgeries are not done with NOD usage in mind.

While I'm generally pretty down on biocular devices (IMHO--they have all the disadvantages of a monocular combined with all the disadvantages of a monocular with none of the advantages of either), for those that fall into these categories, biocular devices are infinitely easier and more comfortable to use, and a more than serviceable option. While I far prefer both BNVDs and MNVDs, I cut my teeth and learned NV using AN/PVS-7s, and compared to no NODs, they were a game changer, even when used with a skull crusher and a PASGT.

~Augee
View Quote
Augee, do you have any way that I can truly identify the 15% that are MNVD incompatible from the people that are just complaining? Pretty much everyone suffers some level of discomfort at the beginning - I don't want to force someone that is never going to adapt but I also don't want to give up on anyone that wants to use a PVS-14.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 1:06:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
Augee, do you have any way that I can truly identify the 15% that are MNVD incompatible from the people that are just complaining? Pretty much everyone suffers some level of discomfort at the beginning - I don't want to force someone that is never going to adapt but I also don't want to give up on anyone that wants to use a PVS-14.
View Quote
I don't know of any real scientific way of filtering people out before they try it, and from there, but someone else may.

Me, I would just take it on a case by case basis and use your judgement as to whether or not the person in question just doesn't want to try to work through it, or they're having real physiological issues with it.

That being said, I don't have a lot of experience with migraines aside from bad hangovers, hahaha, but those that have real problems tend to describe the effect in those terms, a strong, almost physically debilitating headache, which for most people, unless their either uncommonly whiny, or uncommonly resolute, is pretty easy to distinguish from mere discomfort due to unfamiliarity/inexperience.

Again, I don't know that it's exactly 15%, but it's a small but statistically significant number of people that simply cannot make heads nor tails of a monocular setup.

On the civilian side, most people I suspect simply self-select, and either drop NV as a hobby, move to PVS-7s after trying them, or end up moving to duals. Where it becomes more of an issue is folks who are issued equipment and have no other options, and become one of those people who never quite "get it" with NODs and/or one of the rare few who come away from the military thinking that NV sucks and is useless, some of whom end up eventually trying duals and cue "A Whole New World"... while most simply scratch their heads and wonder why in the hell anyone would spend thousands of dollars of their own money to get a piece of shit PVS-14.

~Augee
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 3:46:08 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Augee:


I don't know of any real scientific way of filtering people out before they try it, and from there, but someone else may.

Me, I would just take it on a case by case basis and use your judgement as to whether or not the person in question just doesn't want to try to work through it, or they're having real physiological issues with it.

That being said, I don't have a lot of experience with migraines aside from bad hangovers, hahaha, but those that have real problems tend to describe the effect in those terms, a strong, almost physically debilitating headache, which for most people, unless their either uncommonly whiny, or uncommonly resolute, is pretty easy to distinguish from mere discomfort due to unfamiliarity/inexperience.

Again, I don't know that it's exactly 15%, but it's a small but statistically significant number of people that simply cannot make heads nor tails of a monocular setup.

On the civilian side, most people I suspect simply self-select, and either drop NV as a hobby, move to PVS-7s after trying them, or end up moving to duals. Where it becomes more of an issue is folks who are issued equipment and have no other options, and become one of those people who never quite "get it" with NODs and/or one of the rare few who come away from the military thinking that NV sucks and is useless, some of whom end up eventually trying duals and cue "A Whole New World"... while most simply scratch their heads and wonder why in the hell anyone would spend thousands of dollars of their own money to get a piece of shit PVS-14.

~Augee
View Quote
Thanks for taking the time again, Augee.

If I were to start running a significant number of students, do you think I would be well served keeping a set of PVS-7Bs around for just in case?

I am definitely going to revisit using the dot sights in conjunction with the MNVD. We never used risers and we just canted the carbine in a similar fashion as we did for sighting while wearing a respirator.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 4:14:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
Thanks for taking the time again, Augee.

If I were to start running a significant number of students, do you think I would be well served keeping a set of PVS-7Bs around for just in case?

I am definitely going to revisit using the dot sights in conjunction with the MNVD. We never used risers and we just canted the carbine in a similar fashion as we did for sighting while wearing a respirator.
View Quote
Augee did have a point that a certain percentage have a hard time focusing on a monocular compared to bino NOD's. For you I'd recommend keeping the 7's as there is still a place for them even by todays standards. From personal experience, I was able to drive a lot more comfortably in a hmmwv wearing the 7's than I did with the 14's. Only thing I see the mono's that we use is that it can be easily adapted to be handheld and weapon mounted rather than just being helmet mounted.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 4:33:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 35Remington:
@Augee, superb reply. Every time I read it, I glean something more. Much appreciated. I will give this a go using the "proof of concept" route before diving in.
View Quote
Yankee Hill has the YHM-9474 on clearance right now.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 10:58:20 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tomac:
Thanks for all the great info, everyone!
Looking at this from another angle, is there a decent weapon-mounted NV scope for the budget-minded, or a clip-on that would mount in front of my MRO? Thx again!...

Tomac
View Quote
A PVS4 is a great weapons mounted NV for the price. A clip on is for day optics and usually very expensive. For your MRO I would just use a GI weapons mount mounted behind your MRO. You can find them on ebay @ 20.00 I wouldn't recommended a dedicated weapons mounted NV unless it for hunting or over watch. A PVS14 is best to fill multiple rolls, hand held, head mounted, or weapons mounted.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 2:15:50 AM EDT
@SOT_Solutions

You don't seem to be operating in conditions of abject poverty, so if you're going to be training a lot of new people and providing NV equipment, then it might be worthwhile to go ahead and have a PVS-7 or two in the stable along with PVS-14s.

I don't know what your exact situation is, and how many people you're talking, and how many "fleet" NV units you're talking about using, but another option might be simply to get a PVS-14 bridge mount or two, so you don't have to necessarily get a PVS-7, you can just bridge two PVS-14s together if the need arises.

You could also look at going to MOD-3 systems, again, not sure how many units you're talking about--but the MOD-3 allows you to have a dedicated bino setup that can also be split into separate monoculars. The adjustable gain version of the MOD-3 provides identical function to the PVS-14.

That being said, my understanding is that those individuals who do have issues have them because their brains/eyes cannot reconcile the two vastly different images and seamlessly integrate them the way most can. Biocular and binocular devices are a potential solution for this--but so is simply shutting off the inputs for one eye, that is to say, a cheaper solution than buying a PVS-7 might be to just get a couple of sets of cheap sunglasses from the drugstore, and pop out one of the lenses, and black out the other--basically create "eye patches" so that their non-NV eye simply does not receive any input.

Having a couple of sets of half-glasses might actually help in the "conversion" process even for people who might be having more trouble "getting used to" the monocular, even if it doesn't give them migraines. If they're just not "getting it" at first, you can simply patch one eye, and let them get accustomed to working with one NV eye first, with no non-NV eye until they've built up some proficiency. Then you can re-introduce the non-NV eye.

~Augee
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 11:43:41 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Augee:
@SOT_Solutions

You don't seem to be operating in conditions of abject poverty, so if you're going to be training a lot of new people and providing NV equipment, then it might be worthwhile to go ahead and have a PVS-7 or two in the stable along with PVS-14s.

I don't know what your exact situation is, and how many people you're talking, and how many "fleet" NV units you're talking about using, but another option might be simply to get a PVS-14 bridge mount or two, so you don't have to necessarily get a PVS-7, you can just bridge two PVS-14s together if the need arises.

You could also look at going to MOD-3 systems, again, not sure how many units you're talking about--but the MOD-3 allows you to have a dedicated bino setup that can also be split into separate monoculars. The adjustable gain version of the MOD-3 provides identical function to the PVS-14.

That being said, my understanding is that those individuals who do have issues have them because their brains/eyes cannot reconcile the two vastly different images and seamlessly integrate them the way most can. Biocular and binocular devices are a potential solution for this--but so is simply shutting off the inputs for one eye, that is to say, a cheaper solution than buying a PVS-7 might be to just get a couple of sets of cheap sunglasses from the drugstore, and pop out one of the lenses, and black out the other--basically create "eye patches" so that their non-NV eye simply does not receive any input.

Having a couple of sets of half-glasses might actually help in the "conversion" process even for people who might be having more trouble "getting used to" the monocular, even if it doesn't give them migraines. If they're just not "getting it" at first, you can simply patch one eye, and let them get accustomed to working with one NV eye first, with no non-NV eye until they've built up some proficiency. Then you can re-introduce the non-NV eye.

~Augee
View Quote
I thought about getting a bridge but I didn't want the enticement of the duals to drag someone from an MNVD. I figured if everyone considered getting the "dual" a downgrade then it would only attract a student with a legitimate problem. My total "fleet", including spares, will number fewer than ten when I hit maximum so I don't want to lose two units to a bridge anyways.

I have used the single eye occlusion method and found it effective in the long term. I think having a PVS-7 on hand will probably help better with the short term. I think I will get some sunglasses anyways and recommend them as a training tool for those that need them.

Thank you, your insight has proven valuable.
Link Posted: 3/23/2017 4:45:33 AM EDT
@Augee

I am totally ready to give the elevated optic a chance but all of my EOTechs are absolute cowitness. It looks like I need about 3/4" or more to get it right but I can only find Chinese stuff that I don't trust in that height.

Is there a high quality riser with enough rise? Is the Larue 5/8" riser high enough for me? That still puts me about 1/4" lower than your example.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
New to NV: School Me (Page 1 of 3)
Top Top